Spoilers Rogue One: A Star Wars Story - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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While the Empire might have removed the exhaust port from the Death Star II design, I don't think they did more than patch the actual design flaw put in by Erso. He said he had made the reactor fragile so that ANY solid hit would shut the whole thing down. From the schematics we see in the visual dictionary and other places verses what we see in Return of the Jedi, it seems the Empire's fix was to cap the exhault port's shaft, install a power regulator in that location, but otherwise the reactor was still vulnerable with that disabled. Hence why I think Lando had Wedge take out the power regulator followed by Lando hitting the reactor with missiles. Without the added regulator Erso's flaw was still there.
The way I understood it, Galen made the entire reactor system unstable so that a single blast to *any* part of it would set off a chain reaction. (That single small exhaust port was just the means to access the main reactor and it's ambiguous whether or not Galen put it there on purpose too. Probably not since he didn't mention it.) Again, the vents weren't the flaw in and of themselves, they were supposed to deal with radiation build-up that was threatening to sterilise the officer's quarters.
With that in mind I'd say the Empire would have revisited the entire reactor system design as they'd know just a pair of proton torpedoes probably shouldn't have had enough yield to blow the whole thing. Damage or even temporarily cripple sure, but instant destruction? That's going to make any engineer thing something is up.
Had it just been the same reactor system with some fix for the exhaust port, a single hit on the outer shell would have done it. But no, Lando & Wedge were actually flying around *inside* the reactor system and it took them going after very specific components to bring the thing down. As the name suggests the "power regulator" was probably a safety mechanism to prevent overload in the event of a reactor breach. Also keep in mind this thing was still hot, had fired at least twice at this point and was probably building for another. That's not exploiting a weakness to much as deliberately stuffing a rag up the exhaust pipe, cutting the break line and pouring sugar in the tank.
Somewhat related: I've heard the argument that this makes the "weak spot" in Starkiller Base look incompetent. Again, I'd say this is a misunderstanding of what happened in ANH. The component they took out on SKB was a machine the size of a city and it took explosive charges on the inside to blast a hole and then a fighter to fly *inside* and unload about half a dozen warheads into vital components. Remember the armor on that thing was tough since they lost half their squadron attacking that thing from the outside to no effect. All of which was under an energy shield that would have been up if Phasma wasn't so easy to intimidate. Hardly a weak spot, no?
Starkiller Base had something exploitable that could disable the base, if it could be destroyed. It is not weak, just that is the best they could come up without detailed plans like the Death Star. It is entirely possible that the Death Star had another weakness that was exploitable, but the thermal exhaust port flaw to the known the be weak reactor was too good to pass up, and even then it was a nearly impossible shot to hit a two meter wide hole at 90 degrees. It would likely be easier for the Y-wings than the X-wings, since the bomber were designed to do stuff like that. The X-wings could do it, but with more difficulty since their weapons weren't up for it exactly.
Another potential weakness in the Death Star is the superlaser. If the firing procedure is not followed correctly, the thing could misfire and do terrible things to the station. That would likely have been the plan the Rebellion would come up with eventually had the Erso's not brought about a known weakness and the desperate attack on Scarif. Though without that, they would have eventually found out about the Death Star...though not until Tarkin decided to make an example out of some system. There likely wouldn't have been any Rebels on Jedha when it was popped, only finding the crater later with the explaination that it was a mining accident. The Senate would be disbanded for an unknown reason and the Death Star would blow up some rebellious planet as the first taste. The Rebellion would be in chaos, and have to come out with something to counter this superweapon. From the outside they might be able to figure out the superlaser can be exploited, and do stuff to disable the whole station, if not outright blow it up. On the other hand they would also have Obi-wan Kenobi brought in, with or without Luke, as Leia might be able to talk Kenobi into coming with her personally, and he decides to train her instead, Luke being the backup plan.
Another potential weakness in the Death Star is the superlaser. If the firing procedure is not followed correctly, the thing could misfire and do terrible things to the station. That would likely have been the plan the Rebellion would come up with eventually had the Erso's not brought about a known weakness and the desperate attack on Scarif. Though without that, they would have eventually found out about the Death Star...though not until Tarkin decided to make an example out of some system. There likely wouldn't have been any Rebels on Jedha when it was popped, only finding the crater later with the explaination that it was a mining accident. The Senate would be disbanded for an unknown reason and the Death Star would blow up some rebellious planet as the first taste. The Rebellion would be in chaos, and have to come out with something to counter this superweapon. From the outside they might be able to figure out the superlaser can be exploited, and do stuff to disable the whole station, if not outright blow it up. On the other hand they would also have Obi-wan Kenobi brought in, with or without Luke, as Leia might be able to talk Kenobi into coming with her personally, and he decides to train her instead, Luke being the backup plan.
I would suppose that Galen probably imagined the Alliance could somehow infiltrate the station, plant explosives somewhere near the reactor core and leg it before it explodes...or go up with the station. Attacking it from the outside (even the super laser dish) isn't really a viable option since that outer shell had some pretty thick armour and was bristling with turbo-laser batteries. Any ship the Alliance might have with the fire power to make so much as a dent would get shredded almost as soon as it got in range.
The exhaust port was a one-in-a-million shot, but it was literally then only option with what they had on hand, plus they were literally under the gun. Their primary advantage was the Empire never imagined that anyone would be so crazy as to attack them with a few dozen snub fighters and so didn't bother with much in the way of point defence. Those turbos were meant to track slow moving capital ships, not tiny fighters. It was like trying to kill mosquitoes with a howitzer.
Still, it didn't take the Empire long to deal with them. They went from thirty ships to just three in an engagement that probably didn't last much more than the 15 minutes or so we saw on screen.
The irony here is that the whole thing, from Scarif to Yavin was a series of cock-ups and yet had things gone according to plan, it wouldn't have worked and they'd all be doomed.
The Tantive IV should have left separately and gone straight to Tatooine but because Jyn & Cassin went off on their own, the fleet had to scramble, with Antillies's ship still docked for repairs. Without Leia's ship present, Vader would have got the plans back and the rebellion wouldn't have had a clue how to destroy the Death Star. Or for that matter if Galen's supposed "weakness" was even real since the only people who saw his message were dead and not terribly trustworthy.
That means the Empire would start destroying planets that sympathised with the rebellion until none would dare aid them and what was left would be scattered and hunted down. It would have been a very short war and having Kenobi come out of retirement probably wouldn't have made much of a difference. It's only because it all went to hell that it all turned out as well as it did. Will of the force indeed!
The exhaust port was a one-in-a-million shot, but it was literally then only option with what they had on hand, plus they were literally under the gun. Their primary advantage was the Empire never imagined that anyone would be so crazy as to attack them with a few dozen snub fighters and so didn't bother with much in the way of point defence. Those turbos were meant to track slow moving capital ships, not tiny fighters. It was like trying to kill mosquitoes with a howitzer.
Still, it didn't take the Empire long to deal with them. They went from thirty ships to just three in an engagement that probably didn't last much more than the 15 minutes or so we saw on screen.
The irony here is that the whole thing, from Scarif to Yavin was a series of cock-ups and yet had things gone according to plan, it wouldn't have worked and they'd all be doomed.
The Tantive IV should have left separately and gone straight to Tatooine but because Jyn & Cassin went off on their own, the fleet had to scramble, with Antillies's ship still docked for repairs. Without Leia's ship present, Vader would have got the plans back and the rebellion wouldn't have had a clue how to destroy the Death Star. Or for that matter if Galen's supposed "weakness" was even real since the only people who saw his message were dead and not terribly trustworthy.
That means the Empire would start destroying planets that sympathised with the rebellion until none would dare aid them and what was left would be scattered and hunted down. It would have been a very short war and having Kenobi come out of retirement probably wouldn't have made much of a difference. It's only because it all went to hell that it all turned out as well as it did. Will of the force indeed!
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I don't see it as ironic. There's no way of knowing what they would have had to do differently if X or Y had changed. If Leia doesn't end up captured then Obi-Wan can come kick some ass because he isn't sacrificing himself to get them out of there. If the fleet doesn't show up above Scarif maybe someone gets away with the plans anyways. The way it happens is the way it was written, nothing more or less.
That's what fan fiction is for.
If they went by the plan and no Rebel fleet shows up it is possible the Rebels manage to get the plans out of the base and to the shuttle, assuming some stormtrooper doesn't blow it up. It is unlikely a trooper would happen by since they only reason the rebels were exposed was because they needed to send a signal to the Rebel fleet.
On the other hand, without air support, the force doing the attacking would have been stomped by the walkers. But if the Rebels were "wiped out" than Krennic might not have noticed the security breach and less troopers would have been wondering in on K-2SO, allowing Erso and Andor a chance to simply walk out with the plans to Bode's shuttle and then talk their way into leaving with what little is left of the Rogue One force. If they managed that and made it to Yavin, the Rebel Alliance would have time to sift through the plans to find a weakness. Leia's bring back Obi-wan and perhaps Luke if Old Ben can talk him into leaving (or if Luke even comes up in the discussion of bringing Kenobi back). But then not too long after the Death Star will blow up someplace, maybe Alderaan, maybe Mon Cala, likely Chandrilla would be first to get at Mon Mothma's home. Then the mad scramble begins and the Council would be an issue as they won't have the Death Star coming to Yavin to settle the matter.
On the other hand, without air support, the force doing the attacking would have been stomped by the walkers. But if the Rebels were "wiped out" than Krennic might not have noticed the security breach and less troopers would have been wondering in on K-2SO, allowing Erso and Andor a chance to simply walk out with the plans to Bode's shuttle and then talk their way into leaving with what little is left of the Rogue One force. If they managed that and made it to Yavin, the Rebel Alliance would have time to sift through the plans to find a weakness. Leia's bring back Obi-wan and perhaps Luke if Old Ben can talk him into leaving (or if Luke even comes up in the discussion of bringing Kenobi back). But then not too long after the Death Star will blow up someplace, maybe Alderaan, maybe Mon Cala, likely Chandrilla would be first to get at Mon Mothma's home. Then the mad scramble begins and the Council would be an issue as they won't have the Death Star coming to Yavin to settle the matter.
Can you imagine the discussion between Leia and Obi Wan?
Obi:
"Sure, I'll come and help you, Leia I've been looking forward to training you in the ways of the force for 20 years now. But before we go, let's hike over to this moisture farm and pick up your slightly whiney twin brother, then I won't have to do the training twice. Do you like sand?"
Leia:
"... say whaaaaaaaat?"
Obi:
"Sure, I'll come and help you, Leia I've been looking forward to training you in the ways of the force for 20 years now. But before we go, let's hike over to this moisture farm and pick up your slightly whiney twin brother, then I won't have to do the training twice. Do you like sand?"
Leia:
"... say whaaaaaaaat?"
Wow. I'd never thought of that. Cool.
I've seen a couple of stories about how Vader finds out WHO blew up the station. But never about how.
Thank you. But given the way that it IS written, the Hope theme played in a big Star Wars fanfare over the titles makes me cry now. Dammit.
Does anyone else feel a kind of missed opportunity that Bail and Leia are never on screen together? I mean, I know Leia is the Wow Finish, the movie's exclamation point, and I can't think of a way to put her anywhere in the movie with Bail. But still...
I can see a scenario where Kenobi and his new padawan Leia lead a commando raid on the Death Star to sabotage the reactor. Basically very similar to what we ended up with, including knocking out the tractor beam so they can escape and maybe the fleet jumping in to cover their retreat before the whole thing blows. It would probably also end up with a confrontation with Vader that may or may not also end in Kenobi's death.
The storytelling problem then is whether to get Vader off the Death Star before it blows (if so how?) or kill him then and there and make the rest of the saga being about Leia (and maybe Luke?) training with Yoda to go after Sidious.
There's still plenty of opportunity for that in Rebels, the comics and various media (the Ahsoka novel has actually already touched on this.) But no, in film that window appears to have closed...unless they someday do a young Leia movie. Something of the political spy thriller persuasion methinks.
I'm hoping Rebels gets the chance to wrap up. Or even cooler, get the chance to move between Star Wars and Empire. (WOW! THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!!!) Now I want to see a transition episode that bookends Rogue One! Bail can send Leia to Obi-Wan in that one.
I'm on record as saying I'd like to see them take this all the way up to the Battle of Jakku. That said, Rebels isn't an anthology show like Clone Wars was so if they want to depict that conversation between Leia and Bail, they need to find a way to organically weave it into the Ghost crew's story. Otherwise it's just hollow fan service.
I would have the Ghost have been running escort or retrieval for the Tantive IV on its previous mission. This would be why it was damaged and needed to dock with the Admiral's ship. Another reason for both to be at Yavin IV. Have the Ghost take the droids up to the Tantive IV before the fleet takes off for hyperspace, and another reason the Ghost was covering the flagship so tightly. My guess is that the Ghost jumps to hyperspace just as Vader arrives so they are removed from the escort mission and by the time they track get to try to track it down, they get the message sent to the Senate that the ship was destroyed in an accident and all aboard were killed. That or they make an attempt to rescue the Admiral (or even more desperate bid to save the remains of Rogue One...Hera would be one to try if she thought they could do it),than jump out after the Tantive IV is away, but not able to follow seeing Vader's ship jump after it (after Vader's shuttle returns of course).
There are many ways that the story can be tied together, with the events of Scarif in a way handing over the baton from the Rebels to the Heroes of Yavin as Leia escapes. All depends on if they want to end the series at Scarif, or if they want to tell a few more tales about the Rebellion after Yavin from the Ghost crew's perspective.
There are many ways that the story can be tied together, with the events of Scarif in a way handing over the baton from the Rebels to the Heroes of Yavin as Leia escapes. All depends on if they want to end the series at Scarif, or if they want to tell a few more tales about the Rebellion after Yavin from the Ghost crew's perspective.
Back when Dark Horse had the SW comics license they did a series called Infinities, which did alternate takes on the original trilogy with one thing changed. In the ANH miniseries Luke missed the shot that destroyed the Death Star, in ESB Luke died on Hoth, and in RoTJ they aren't able to rescue Han. Rogue One failing would be a perfect story for another one of those.
Yeah I know, I have two of them sat on my shelf.
They were a nice idea but sadly hampered by some pretty poor writing and IIRC it never went past three volumes--one for each of the movies. Honestly I think they squandered a good concept with some bizarre choices (and not the interesting kind of "bizarre.")
But yeah, I'd like to see Marvel take another run at it with a better writing staff. Maybe the prequels this time as it'll give more room to make sweeping changes from TPM all the way to RotJ or even TFA.
Personally I'd really like the see a scenario where Anakin resists temptation and Windu kills Sidious. I'm thinking Windu takes power and precipitates a Jedi civil war with the Republic shattered, no Order 66, Padme survives and you go on from there.
The rebels know, and someone talked?
Yeah I know, I have two of them sat on my shelf.
They were a nice idea but sadly hampered by some pretty poor writing and IIRC it never went past three volumes--one for each of the movies. Honestly I think they squandered a good concept with some bizarre choices (and not the interesting kind of "bizarre.")
But yeah, I'd like to see Marvel take another run at it with a better writing staff. Maybe the prequels this time as it'll give more room to make sweeping changes from TPM all the way to RotJ or even TFA.
Personally I'd really like the see a scenario where Anakin resists temptation and Windu kills Sidious. I'm thinking Windu takes power and precipitates a Jedi civil war with the Republic shattered, no Order 66, Padme survives and you go on from there.
Well that's too bad, I was just about ready to ask where I could find copies of these. :/
I kind of like the idea of Anakin ending up needing to "kill the Jedi to save them", in the sense that they're the ones who end up falling to the Dark Side after killing Sidious but losing track of their own desires to "protect" the Republic.
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