Exactly. I've read tons of great tie-in books that weren't "canon." Never hurt my enjoyment of them one bit.
Nostalgia for the 24th Century
- Thread starter Emperor Norton
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Exactly. I've read tons of great tie-in books that weren't "canon." Never hurt my enjoyment of them one bit.
Alright, this is a long one....
As for buying books, etc, that's the end of the relationship as far as Lucasfilm is concerned. No one, not one single person, held a gun to my head and told me to memorize random facts about Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR, etc. No one said to memorize these facts to be happy or to enjoy this book please study X, Y, & Z.
The enjoyment I get out of the books, movies, video games, and on and on, is not dependent upon outside labels. I just like them, for reasons that even escape me some times. If I ever stop enjoying it, I'll stop buying it. That's the only way I can send a message to Lucasfilm or CBS is to stop buying their product. But, if I complain that they are mishandling the product, that they have offended me or their business is wrong and I still buy the product then who is the idiot?
As a follow up question, did that change what was purchased from them?
No, you can't consider "The Mouse." Corporations are, like, evil, man.
As for buying books, etc, that's the end of the relationship as far as Lucasfilm is concerned. No one, not one single person, held a gun to my head and told me to memorize random facts about Star Wars, Star Trek, LOTR, etc. No one said to memorize these facts to be happy or to enjoy this book please study X, Y, & Z.
The enjoyment I get out of the books, movies, video games, and on and on, is not dependent upon outside labels. I just like them, for reasons that even escape me some times. If I ever stop enjoying it, I'll stop buying it. That's the only way I can send a message to Lucasfilm or CBS is to stop buying their product. But, if I complain that they are mishandling the product, that they have offended me or their business is wrong and I still buy the product then who is the idiot?
Really? I thought it gained more entertainment value as in what not to do?Yet somehow, The Holiday Special really did lose some entertainment value after its 'official prequel to ESB' status was removed.
How strange.
Precisely so. What changed with the books?
Count me in as a third. I would count it a kindness if someone could genuinely, preferably without snark or sarcasm (but I'll take what I can get) explain what changed when Lucasfilm created Legends out of the old EU?
As a follow up question, did that change what was purchased from them?
I'll try to answer that question, albeit from my own idiosyncratic perspective as an oddball fan resistant to both the concept of "canon" and the concept of the "reboot" in franchised fiction.
For me, the main thing that changed when Lucasfilm created Legends out of the old Expanded Universe was that I knew I'd never be getting any more of it. It doesn't change the books on my shelf. I can still read and enjoy Heir to the Empire. But I can't hold out any hope for a(nother) sequel. I'm still not convinced it had to be this way. I think the movie makers and the novelists and the game designers could have all done their own stories semi-independent of each other, as was practically done in the past, whatever the official Lucasfilm company policy on "canon" and "retcon" and whatnot.
The only other thing that changed is that if I want to buy an Expanded Universe novel now, I have to have that darn "Legends" banner reminding me and rubbing it in my face that Lucasfilm is currently taking the movies in a new direction I don't like. A minor insult indeed, and one that speaks more to my dislike of the current products than the so-called "canon" status of the old ones.
In answer to your follow up question, I haven't purchased much of anything from Star Wars since the change, but again, more because I don't want what's now available to buy than because of any ill-conceived protest against how the old material is treated.
For me, the main thing that changed when Lucasfilm created Legends out of the old Expanded Universe was that I knew I'd never be getting any more of it. It doesn't change the books on my shelf. I can still read and enjoy Heir to the Empire. But I can't hold out any hope for a(nother) sequel. I'm still not convinced it had to be this way. I think the movie makers and the novelists and the game designers could have all done their own stories semi-independent of each other, as was practically done in the past, whatever the official Lucasfilm company policy on "canon" and "retcon" and whatnot.
The only other thing that changed is that if I want to buy an Expanded Universe novel now, I have to have that darn "Legends" banner reminding me and rubbing it in my face that Lucasfilm is currently taking the movies in a new direction I don't like. A minor insult indeed, and one that speaks more to my dislike of the current products than the so-called "canon" status of the old ones.
In answer to your follow up question, I haven't purchased much of anything from Star Wars since the change, but again, more because I don't want what's now available to buy than because of any ill-conceived protest against how the old material is treated.
Most of the other arguments for jettisoning the old Expanded Universe are arguments I understand, even if I may not fully agree. But this remains the one exception on which I'm totally unconvinced. Most of those people flocking to the new movie didn't know about the existence of the "21 or so years of EU novels." And most of the people flocking to the new movie who did know about the existence of those novels didn't care what was in them. So how can novels be a potential liability to people who don't know or care about them?
That's all perfectly fair, and I appreciate the answer at length to my inquiry. It was more of a personal curiosity, since I often see railing against a production company (Lucasfilm, CBS, Paramount) but rarely any action.
As for the rest, I can certainly see the perspective of a "minor insult" because the label is a reminder of what has changed. That helps give me a better insight to it.
Did it "have to be" this way? No, but there are a lot of decisions that are made in the Hollywood echelons that seem overwhelmingly ridiculous to my little mind. But, that's me. I certainly don't expect them to make sense to me. I'm sure that there were other work arounds, but I can also see a reason behind it of simplifying the narrative. Which, for me, is neither here nor there. I can still read those books, get them from the library, book store, etc, and still enjoy them.
So, while I appreciate the different perspective, I also am not certain I can agree completely. I think Lucasfilm having everyone on the same page negated the need for different writers having to explain to an audience were their books fell in the world. Even Lucas got that (perhaps apocryphally) so the clarification might have been more necessary than the average person might think.
Meaning Lucasfilm couldn't justify keeping them going because they couldn't use those stories going forward, nor could they risk more confusion from the new fans the new films might bring in. The ones that might decide, 'Hey there are a whole lot of Star Wars novels, lets see what else happened before this film', and discover, "wait, how come Leia has three kids here and none are named Ben? And what's this war going on, and why is Chewbacca dead?" Those sorts of problems as they go forward. Problems far larger than any Lucasfilm had to deal with when Lucas decided to do something for the PT that was not in line with some of the old EU novels, because most of those cases were minor. This time around it would be major and all levels. Basically everything was different. While they could have attempted to work around it and included everything, or some things, with 21 years of novels going from the Battle of Endor to 40 or so years after that battle, with the new Episode VII happening three-quarters of the way through that time line, they needed to do something before a big mess happened.
I had hoped they'd keep stuff, and to be fair they have, just they are using it differently. The best stuff is getting recycled for use, or a variant is being made to cover it. The thing is, they had to make it somehow clearly different so they could make new materials later that fit what happened between Episode VI and VII one day, and not hamper the writers with 21 years of existing materials (because if they kept it, than the story is already told) They don't need movies with that material, save that the best stuff would not fit the age of the original actors at all, and by the time frame the actors fit their characters, the story is boring, convoluted, and/or would require too much background information to make viable. Information you might not be able to put on screen within the context of the three films and still tell the story. A story that would not have the "mystery box" because all that stuff should be known to the audience already, but wouldn't be because they wouldn't have read the novels that establish what happened to the Empire, the New Repubic, Luke's New Jedi Order, Leia's children, The dozen or so major wars that happened both against Imperial Warlords, and alien races that have reshaped the Republic and Coruscant in particular. The Death of Chewbacca. Luke's child. The tale of his wife. A whole mess of things that would come up in the sequel trilogy, either directly or indirectly via absence. There was too much, so it had to be left behind in order to move forward.
It was not thrown away thought. That is important. Lucasfilm has kept it and while they labeled it "Legends", they have not forgotten about it, nor stopped selling it. They just need a way to keep it separate from the stories they are going to tell that could be the equivalent to an alternate timeline. In one version, Han and Leia didn't get married until about four years after Endor and have three kids over the next three years. In the current version, Han and Leia go married (I think) almost immediately after Endor and had one son roughly a year later. If he has any other siblings, we've not been told about them as of yet (we will assume that Rey is not his much younger sister). IN both versions Luke Skywalker setup an academy of some sort to train new Jedi. In both versions he would have a student fall to the dark side and try to kill the new Jedi. The paths split on the level of success for the betrayal. The "Legends" stories are still there, and some of them might come back in one form or another, but Lucasfilm needed a way to keep the stories straight moving forward with the new Trilogy, and use that opportunity to tie up some older loose ends, or "canonize" one version of a tale told a half dozen times in the various media of the old EU (the Thief of the Death Star Plans is but one extreme example). The next will probably be the Kessel Run and possibly have Han Solo got the Millennium Falcon. There will likely be others as they go forward. Tales that were told serval ways over the decades are usually the fun story everyone want to tell, and with the older versions becoming "Legends" a screenwriter can make up a new version that everyone will see on the big screen rather than on the pages of a novel, or video game, or in a comic book.
"There is always some truth in Legends"
~Ahsoka Tano
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That's a good point I hadn't considered. I don't think, going into the new movies, many people who hadn't read the books would have been aware of them or intimidated by their different, involved version of events. But coming out of the movie, with new excitement for this new post-Return of the Jedi era of Star Wars, some people might have looked up the books, only to get confused and discouraged, which Lucasfilm obviously doesn't want.
And I can appreciate that shutting down a continuity usually means no new material in that timeline, which can be disappointing to long-time readers. (Although that's not the case with the STAR TREK novels and comics, which have never been considered "canon.") But, yes, ultimately, you want any new books to be consistent with the current movie continuity in order to be more accessible to modern-day movie-goers.
Which means that, inevitably, certain older tie-in novels run the risk of becoming apocryphal over the course of time. Comes with the territory, I'm afraid.
Says the guy who has written two mutually incompatible prequels to UNDERWORLD, in order to stay consistent with the movie series as it developed. And who has written for both the old and the new PLANET OF THE APES continuities.
Which means that, inevitably, certain older tie-in novels run the risk of becoming apocryphal over the course of time. Comes with the territory, I'm afraid.
Says the guy who has written two mutually incompatible prequels to UNDERWORLD, in order to stay consistent with the movie series as it developed. And who has written for both the old and the new PLANET OF THE APES continuities.
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Funnily enough, I think Star Trek did it exactly right:
Movies & tv-shows are canon (aka "the stuff most people know about", and "the stuff that makes a ton of money"), while everything else (books, comics, videogames, aka "glorified merchandise") is non-canon.
Now I think this is the only wayt it works for major franchises. Not putting a value on "story" or "what happens to characters", but on "which medium are most people aware of/generates the most money? Whenever there will be new movies or tv-shows, they will take center stage.
Now what does "non-canon" mean? Star Wars now has different levels. But basically it's up to you, the reader: Do you like it? Then it's your head-canon. At least the parts of it that are important to you. It just means, in the general way, if it contradicts each other, the stuff more people are aware of is the stuff that counts more. That doesn't reduce the personal value of these stories and adventures.
IMO ALL other franchise have this canon system (like Star Trek) too - they just don't tell you. They may say 'everything is canon'. But don't believe them! As soon as there is a new Pirates-of-the-Caribbean movie, it automatically trumps any previous tie-in novel. In the same way, all new Star Wars-novels are exactly as long canon until there is a new animated tv-show that contradicts them. Accept that - and you will have much more fun with these 'additional' stories.
Movies & tv-shows are canon (aka "the stuff most people know about", and "the stuff that makes a ton of money"), while everything else (books, comics, videogames, aka "glorified merchandise") is non-canon.
Now I think this is the only wayt it works for major franchises. Not putting a value on "story" or "what happens to characters", but on "which medium are most people aware of/generates the most money? Whenever there will be new movies or tv-shows, they will take center stage.
Now what does "non-canon" mean? Star Wars now has different levels. But basically it's up to you, the reader: Do you like it? Then it's your head-canon. At least the parts of it that are important to you. It just means, in the general way, if it contradicts each other, the stuff more people are aware of is the stuff that counts more. That doesn't reduce the personal value of these stories and adventures.
IMO ALL other franchise have this canon system (like Star Trek) too - they just don't tell you. They may say 'everything is canon'. But don't believe them! As soon as there is a new Pirates-of-the-Caribbean movie, it automatically trumps any previous tie-in novel. In the same way, all new Star Wars-novels are exactly as long canon until there is a new animated tv-show that contradicts them. Accept that - and you will have much more fun with these 'additional' stories.
To my mind, if a major motion picture or TV episode can trump a paperback novel (which is always going to be the case), then the book isn't "canon." Ergo, no book is "canon."
Doesn't mean that they're not good books or not worth reading. And they're always going to be consistent with the movie and TV continuity at that point in time. But the movies and TV shows are always going to be free to ignore them, for all sorts of practical and pragmatic reasons. That's just the way it works.
Case in point: I'm currently working on the outline for a third LIBRARIANS novel. And, yes, I'm working closely with the TV people to make sure that my plot doesn't step on their toes. But, six years from now, when THE LIBRARIANS: THE MOTION PICTURE opens at a theater near you, will that plot still fit with the onscreen continuity? Who knows? Continuity is sometimes a moving target.
Doesn't mean that they're not good books or not worth reading. And they're always going to be consistent with the movie and TV continuity at that point in time. But the movies and TV shows are always going to be free to ignore them, for all sorts of practical and pragmatic reasons. That's just the way it works.
Case in point: I'm currently working on the outline for a third LIBRARIANS novel. And, yes, I'm working closely with the TV people to make sure that my plot doesn't step on their toes. But, six years from now, when THE LIBRARIANS: THE MOTION PICTURE opens at a theater near you, will that plot still fit with the onscreen continuity? Who knows? Continuity is sometimes a moving target.
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I'm not convinced that we will *never* see new stories in the "Legends" EU. Give it time - maybe sometime after the new Trilogy has been through the theaters, they will put out some new "Legends" books. I think some of us thought we'd never see the Trek Primeverse on screens again once the Kelvinverse appeared - and yet, here comes Discovery. The Powers That Be frequently make these decisions in ways that can seem mysterious to those of us who are *inside* these fandoms.
Personally, I don't like that they named the kid "Ben" in the new trilogy, but I never liked the Vong, and they're reintroducing a lot of the characters (Thrawn) and things (certain models of starfighters, mainly) that I really liked. So I'll trade "Ben" for Chewbacca not having a freaking MOON dropped on him, gladly.
Personally, I don't like that they named the kid "Ben" in the new trilogy, but I never liked the Vong, and they're reintroducing a lot of the characters (Thrawn) and things (certain models of starfighters, mainly) that I really liked. So I'll trade "Ben" for Chewbacca not having a freaking MOON dropped on him, gladly.
That's the whole situation in a nutshell right there.
For me personally? I'd prefer to have the whole thing rebooted every so often and have new people reinterpret the basic universe.
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