Ira Graves in "Miri"?

[Idran]

I'm beginning to agree that it'd be better to start over with Memory Delta

Delta's taken twice, it looks like.

If you all do end up going the new wiki route, how about Memory Bet, as in the Hebrew letter? Since it's somewhat parallel to Beta but along a different path of derivation, much like the letter "bet" itself. Though "bet" might be a little too close to "beta".

"Memory Vet"?

 

[Extrocomp]

I don't think having a wiki just for the Novelverse is a good idea because the Novelverse doesn't really have hard boundaries. Novelverse stories sometimes contradict each other and sometimes reference stories that most of us would agree are not part of the Novelverse. What we need is a wiki that has clear rules about how to organize contradictory information and specifically a rule against blending or rationalizing contradictory info.

It especially annoyed me when I found an article titled "Marcus Walter Nichols". Apparently some editor had noticed Dr. Nichols was given different first names in different novels and decided that Walter had to be a middle name. Personally, I prefer to think of stories that contradict each other as existing in different universes and that Marcus Nichols and Walter Nichols are alternate versions.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I have thought about trying to set up a wiki purely for the novelverse, and stuff with a proveable connection to it. But I really don't have to energy for a project like that.

There was a Star Trek books listserv that used to be very active in the late 90s/early 00s, with about 50 regulars. We were all working on various entries for an online tie-in novel concordance, but then along came Memory Beta, which was doing the same job and included the comics and RPGs. Some people uploaded their work to MB entries.

 

[Jinn]

How about Memory Ny, with the Greek letter for "n", as in novelverse.

Maybe even give it a clever title. Something like "Charting the Novel-verse".

Note to self: No TrekBBS after 11pm.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think having a wiki just for the Novelverse is a good idea because the Novelverse doesn't really have hard boundaries. Novelverse stories sometimes contradict each other and sometimes reference stories that most of us would agree are not part of the Novelverse.

Indeed. I've often found it useful to look up technical info on Memory Beta about starships and alien planets and whatnot and draw on bits and pieces of prior worldbuilding to assemble my version. I like having it all in one place.

What we need is a wiki that has clear rules about how to organize contradictory information and specifically a rule against blending or rationalizing contradictory info.

And this, too. It should all be in one place for handy reference, but it should also be clearly delineated by source for accuracy. Blending information from different, even contradictory sources without specifying what came from where is confusing and misleading.

 

[Stevil2001]

Given that MB suffers for a lack of contributors, creating a second, more niche Treklit wiki doesn't sound like something with a high chance of viability.

 

[ryan123450]

Yes that is true.

 

[Defcon]

Captain Mike being the Trump of Memory Beta doesn't help the site, either, in my opininon, at least that was my feeling when I was more active there.

While I could do my thing pretty much uninterrupted ( I was editing the site(s) for the German translations for a while), I had the feeling his "my way or the highway" attitude drove off several motivated users.

 

[TheAlmanac]

How many of you guys who post here are on Memory Beta. If I can get enough support I might try and bring that up on the boards there. When I look at the characters on MB, I'm mainly just interested in the stuff that relates to the Novelverse or the older books, and it gets annoying trying to wade through stuff from other things to figure out which stuff is just from them.

I'm not that active at the moment, but if you start a thread there on this topic, I'll post my support for the idea of coming up with a continuity system.

I dunno, it's supposed to be a wiki for all licensed work, so I actually prefer that includes everything. I do wish they did better at delineating what comes from where, but through in-text citations. Trying to cordon entries off based on what "universe" they're in just sounds way too confusing to me. I like reading through and seeing all the sources in one place. I have no desire to have to go through James T. Kirk (Novelverse), James T. Kirk (80s Novels), James T. Kirk (Bantam), James T. Kirk (Gold Key), James T. Kirk (DC), James T. Kirk (IDW)... etc.

If the fandom for The Transformers can do it (they also have two wikis), and Wikipedia can do it within single entries for DC Universe characters (many of whom have longer and more extensive histories), then some motivated Star Trek fans can come up with something that's viable and easy enough to navigate.

 

[JD]

Yeah, but there's history there. That one's kinda akin to the Vulcan Sundering!



I dunno, it's supposed to be a wiki for all licensed work, so I actually prefer that includes everything. I do wish they did better at delineating what comes from where, but through in-text citations. Trying to cordon entries off based on what "universe" they're in just sounds way too confusing to me. I like reading through and seeing all the sources in one place. I have no desire to have to go through James T. Kirk (Novelverse), James T. Kirk (80s Novels), James T. Kirk (Bantam), James T. Kirk (Gold Key), James T. Kirk (DC), James T. Kirk (IDW)... etc.

Well, my idea would be to put it all on one page, but instead of melding it all together, I would clearly seperate it out so you know exactly where each one came from. And I would want to make sure each individual source is clearly marked where the information from that source ends. A lot of the current entries will say a character did this, this, this, this and this, and then just list all of the sources at the end of the paragraph without saying which stuff came from which source, but instead of that I would do do this (source #1), this (source #2), this and this (source #3). That would make things a lot easier if somebody wanted cite one of those sources in a story, or if they wanted to read the story where one of things happened.

I don't think having a wiki just for the Novelverse is a good idea because the Novelverse doesn't really have hard boundaries. Novelverse stories sometimes contradict each other and sometimes reference stories that most of us would agree are not part of the Novelverse. What we need is a wiki that has clear rules about how to organize contradictory information and specifically a rule against blending or rationalizing contradictory info.

It especially annoyed me when I found an article titled "Marcus Walter Nichols". Apparently some editor had noticed Dr. Nichols was given different first names in different novels and decided that Walter had to be a middle name. Personally, I prefer to think of stories that contradict each other as existing in different universes and that Marcus Nichols and Walter Nichols are alternate versions.

Yeah, the more I think about the more it seems like a totally separate wiki would be a bad idea. Just seperating things more on Memory Beta would probably work better. If it were me I would just do it by categories, so I would set it up with Comics, Stand Alone Novels/Short Stories/Novellas, Novelverse, Star Trek Online, Alternate Universes. It would also make it a lot easier if something from an old book or comic was added to the one of the other categories, since all you'd have to do is move it up or down on the page, instead of completely having to add to the article.
I was looking through the Ro Laren article yesterday, and it does separate out the "Destiny timeline"/Novelverse and STO stuff and alternate universes, so they already it a little bit there.

 

[Stevil2001]

Captain Mike being the Trump of Memory Beta doesn't help the site, either, in my opininon, at least that was my feeling when I was more active there.

Can't be as bad as CzechOut on the TARDIS wiki, who makes decisions by fiat and refuses to reconsider them under any circumstances.

If the fandom for The Transformers can do it (they also have two wikis), and Wikipedia can do it within single entries for DC Universe characters (many of whom have longer and more extensive histories), then some motivated Star Trek fans can come up with something that's viable and easy enough to navigate.

I don't think the Transformers example quite matches: most Transformers continuities are pretty separate. IDW Optimus Prime is a different character to Marvel Comics Optimus Prime is a different character to 1980s cartoon Optimus Prime is a different character to Michael Bay Optimus Prime is a different character to Kiss Players Optimus Prime. But novelverse James T. Kirk, 1980s novels James T. Kirk, and Bantam James T. Kirk all actually have a lot in common (the television show history... well, kinda, I guess you wouldn't have to count any post-1969 canon revelations about Kirk as "true" for the Bantam Kirk), which makes things more tangled. And then you have all those 1990s standalones that could reveal facts about a character but don't really belong to a "continuity" beyond just being consistent with the canon.

 

[JD]

I posted a started a thread about separating source on Memory Beta's Ten Forward, if anybody else wants to take part in the conversation . I'm JDB there.

 

[Jinn]

Well, my idea would be to put it all on one page, but instead of melding it all together, I would clearly seperate it out so you know exactly where each one came from. And I would want to make sure each individual source is clearly marked where the information from that source ends. A lot of the current entries will say a character did this, this, this, this and this, and then just list all of the sources at the end of the paragraph without saying which stuff came from which source, but instead of that I would do do this (source #1), this (source #2), this and this (source #3). That would make things a lot easier if somebody wanted cite one of those sources in a story, or if they wanted to read the story where one of things happened.

You mean a littkle bit like this (Primäre Realität=Prime reality, Spiegeluniversum=Mirror Universe) format wise, just for characters?

 

[Leto_II]

Captain Mike being the Trump of Memory Beta doesn't help the site, either, in my opininon, at least that was my feeling when I was more active there.

While I could do my thing pretty much uninterrupted ( I was editing the site(s) for the German translations for a while), I had the feeling his "my way or the highway" attitude drove off several motivated users.

Was just about to mention CaptainMike. Yeah, that guy can be pretty high-handed at times.

 

[JD]

You mean a littkle bit like this (Primäre Realität=Prime reality, Spiegeluniversum=Mirror Universe) format wise, just for characters?

I was thinking more along the lines of just headings on the same page, but I like that idea too.
EDIT: Captain MKB responded to me, and he doesn't want to separate sources, but he was open to clearer citations. I just tried to defend my position on separating sources, so now I'm waiting to see if I get another response.

 

[Jinn]

I was thinking more along the lines of just headings on the same page, but I like that idea too.

The problem with the tab system is that linking to other tabs doesn't work (or maybe it does and we didn't figure it out), so headings are probably the best alternative, at least with smaller articles.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Well, my idea would be to put it all on one page, but instead of melding it all together, I would clearly seperate it out so you know exactly where each one came from. And I would want to make sure each individual source is clearly marked where the information from that source ends. A lot of the current entries will say a character did this, this, this, this and this, and then just list all of the sources at the end of the paragraph without saying which stuff came from which source, but instead of that I would do do this (source #1), this (source #2), this and this (source #3). That would make things a lot easier if somebody wanted cite one of those sources in a story, or if they wanted to read the story where one of things happened.

I think we're pretty much in agreement, then. That sounds the same as my in-text citation suggestion. I would be on-board with this.

I remember once finding the article for a (Klingon?) ship that appeared in TOS, but of course wasn't given a name in the show. The article said something along the lines of "this ship, called A, has also been called B and C." As you said, it listed all the sources at the end, but I would have preferred each source to be listed with the corresponding name, so you knew which one came from where.

 

[JD]

Well, Captain MKB responded and apparently his stance is that it's all one big universe and should all be together. I think this is my big issue, because the stuff weren't actually concieved of that way, and I think that should be taken into account. There are way to many inconsistencies for that to be at all plausible.
Most of us have out own personal continuities that include things we like and that's fine, but I think a site like Memory Beta should make it clearer is and isn't together rather than just mashing it all together.
EDIT: MKB just responded again, and now I'm getting frustrated. He keeps on about not excluding stuff, even though I've explained like three times now that I don't want to exclude anything, I just want to separate it.

 

[ryan123450]

These kinds of problems are why I gave up trying to edit wikis years ago.

 

[JD]

Yeah, it looks like neither of us are going to change our minds there.
I did start a new thread here about this stuff so we don't derail this one any more than we already have.