How Could The TNG Films Be Improved?

[Trek Survivor]

I'll go on record and say that I am quite fond of all four TNG movies (for different reasons). Of course there are ways to improve them, but I certainly don't see them as disastrous as so many here seem to.

A few bits and pieces:

* Don't destroy the Ent-D in "Generations". I think the producers underestimated that for us TNG fans that ship was as special as the original Enterprise which managed twenty years before it went up in smoke. Curtailing the voyages of the Ent-D after 7/8 years seems to trivialise it. I'd have been fine with the ship getting a right old beating, leading to a substantial refit/upgrade for "First Contact" (possibly even removing the families permanently if that's what they wanted). But allow the ship, the tradition, the legend, to continue!

* Like TSN suggests, I'd have liked Riker and Troi to get their own ship between GEN and FC.

* I like "Insurrection", but I'd lose some of the pained attempts at humour, beef up the villains a little more and make the moral dilemma a little more agonised over by Picard rather than immediately jumping to self-righteous mode.

* If Data has to die in NEM, I wouldn't have had the "B-4" cheat twist of uploading his memories.

* Let's be honest, a lot of the issues with the films is because Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner had significant script input and did not, shall we say, always have the production's end quality as their first priority . Particularly in the case of Spiner, I felt this hurt the end products at times.

 

[Devilpogostick]

I'm gonna agree about the final battle for the Big "D" in Generations.

If you want a ship that's been around for 7 seasons of television go down...just do it in a way that doesn't scratch your head how Riker and crew really muddled this up. I mean yes, we've seen and/or discuss the possible reasons but we saw how it went down. The "D" should have lit that BoP like a Christmas tree.

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

I agree with everything above! Well, except Riker & Troi getting their own ship. It was already a stretch having Worf coming conveniently back, again and again.

There is no visual/emotional connection to the Enterprise-E. The D is a character in its own right.

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

I agree with everything above! Well, except Riker & Troi getting their own ship. It was already a stretch having Worf coming conveniently back, again and again.

I dont think that Riker and Troi would have needed to come back to the actual Enterprise crew all the time. Same with Worf.

Movies should and do feature different locales and settings all the time. Riker and Troi, and Worf, could have had a separate, but equal and connected, plot thread to the Enteprise crew that comes together in the movie's climax.

Maybe even ditch the Enterprise completely for one movie. We already had The Voyage Home that barely features spaceship called Enterprise and its a great movie.

 

[Jedman67]

* Let's be honest, a lot of the issues with the films is because Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner had significant script input and did not, shall we say, always have the production's end quality as their first priority . Particularly in the case of Spiner, I felt this hurt the end products at times.

AFAIK that's just hearsay, but quite believable. On the other hand, a good director/producer with a solid writing team would (politely) put the actors in their place. Input, yes, but only one person is the director.

 

[Galileo7]

So the Next Generation movie should have been a reset-button episode in which no actual thing happens and what we see on-screen are not the TV show's characters, but imposters with the same names?

I'll grant it might have been thrilling, and it was fine for episode number 18 (or whatever) of season three of seven, but there is a problem with making that sort of thing your big-screen outing for two years in either direction.

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I just think Generations should have been like "Yesterday's Enterprise" with Kirk aboard the 1701-B coming through a temporal opening to encounter Picard's1701-D. No Nexus. In 1994, at the height of Star Trek popularity killing Kirk in the disappointing Nexus story was a waste of a great character. Kirk should have died in command of the 1701-B saving others...not falling to his death fighting on a walkway on a planet and being anonymously buried under a pile of rocks by Picard. Picard should have brought Kirk's body back on the shuttlecraft that picked him up and brought it back to Earth for a proper Starfleet burial or at least like WOK Spock's on board one of the starship's that recovered the 1701-D crew.

 

[Paradise City]

I just think Generations should have been like "Yesterday's Enterprise" with Kirk aboard the 1701-B coming through a temporal opening to encounter Picard's1701-D. No Nexus. In 1994, at the height of Star Trek popularity killing Kirk in the disappointing Nexus story was a waste of a great character. Kirk should have died in command of the 1701-B saving others...not falling to his death fighting on a walkway on a planet and being anonymously buried under a pile of rocks by Picard.

I don't think they should've redone the YE template exactly but I do agree they gave Kirk a flat send off. Kirk dies after being pinned under scaffolding after a brawl, and then Data's cat takes over the spotlight. Bit of a damp squib that alright.

Even a couple of moments depicting a Federation state funeral and a little amazed dialogue from the TNG people that they actually had the most celebrated captain in their midst, would've pushed Kirk's treatment above my own minimum threshold of acceptability.

 

[Galileo7]

I don't think they should've redone the YE template exactly but I do agree they gave Kirk a flat send off. Kirk dies after being pinned under scaffolding after a brawl, and then Data's cat takes over the spotlight. Bit of a damp squib that alright.

Even a couple of moments depicting a Federation state funeral and a little amazed dialogue from the TNG people that they actually had the most celebrated captain in their midst, would've pushed Kirk's treatment above my own minimum threshold of acceptability.

Right, not a "Yesterday's Enterprise" exact remake, just the idea that Kirk via the 1701-B goes through a temporal rift [not Nexus] to the future and meets the Picard's 1701-D. I would have loved Kirk on the 1701-D meeting the crew, like Scotty in NG"Relics".

 

[Paradise City]

Right, not a "Yesterday's Enterprise" exact remake, just the idea that Kirk via the 1701-B goes through a temporal rift [not Nexus] to the future and meets the Picard's 1701-D. I would have loved Kirk on the 1701-D meeting the crew, like Scotty in NG"Relics".

The Nexus isn't ideal but I forgave it because when I saw it, it reminded me of The Guardian of Forever. It's that kind of plot device. Something none too rigorous but enough to get the plot moving along. Trek has a history of that. It's just that Kirk's actual death and the post-death period was so weak, it really was a missed opportunity. The Berman crew knew the TNG lot and could write for them but were bit at a loss to know what to do with the big man.

But sure you could do something better with it. I'd have a Kirk festival to send him off, bring in Mirror Kirk and contrive to have the whole shebang resolved in the 24th century in the company of Picard & Co.

I'd have Scott met a delighted Kirk in the 24th century having attended Scott's funeral in the 23rd.

And I wouldn't be necessarily bound by the "Kirk must die" thing either. "Kirk must die" took a life of its own and away from the goal of actually writing something compelling for the character himself. I'm always nervous about "X must die" being one's starting point in designing a predicament for a given character. I personally would've left Kirk's fate unresolved and the cycle of speculation would've kept another flow of interest going for the franchise.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I'm sure we had a thread about this a year or two ago. A shame I can't recall it, otherwise I'd copy and paste my no doubt longer and more meaty response, but off the top of my head...


Generations
For starters: Kirk didn't die that way, or die at all, and I cant' see a reason off hand any of the TOS crew need to be in the film.

The Enterprise D isn't destroyed (or at least not replaced with that shitty E design). So, let me get this straight: The Defiant can be completely destroyed and another ship of that class renamed to be the Defiant, but part of the Enterprise survives and it all has to go? Horse hockey!

Comedy Data has to go. This doesn't at all reflect how the character would have approached it in the series.

No Voyager uniforms.

Aside from maybe a little better character development all around, there's not a whole lot I would hange; I liked the life and death ideas and how some of it was presented, and I love the score.


First Contact
The film shouldn't have been made, in my opinion. It's a terrible film that takes a shit on the Borg and wastes our characters. And don't even get me started on the ugly ship design, the ugly interiors, the ugly uniforms, and the inclusion of the holographic doctor. The less ties to the spin-offs, especially Voyager and Enterprise, the better.

Once again, the score shines.


Insurrection
It's a boring and rather bad film, but I'm not really ever sure what to do with the film. Shoudl it be junked? Should it be changed?

I've had lights ideas here and there over time, but right now my current thinking is it should have been junked. There was talk of it maybe being hte last film, and even if it wasn't, surely the next film would be the last, so why waste it with what they did?

Still love the score though.


Nemesis
The film was utter shit and shouldn't have been made, especially considering at the time I was reading this was the last TNG Trek film.

I would have kept one thing from it, though: Romulans. No Remens.

The Undiscovered Country tied up the TOS crew rather nicely and their main villain from the series, the Klingons, shadowing real life events with the U.S. and Soviet Russia. It would have been extremely fitting had the TNG crew gone out with a reflective film with the Romulans, bringing back Spock to tie up the Romulan/Vulcan peace movement, Sela, and the whole deep mistrust and constant verge of war the Romulans were at with the Federation. It would especially have been believable the two could come together after becoming allies against the Dominion in D.S.9.; imagine what that could have looked like two years later in-verse. A swan-song for all the crew, maybe people moving on, advancing in life, etc.

Nope, instead Biard, Logan, and Berman decided to take a Remen shit on us. And what in the world did Spiner write in this terrible thing? His way out, since he thought he was too old to play Data any longer?


I'm still angry about the whole thing, I still want my money back for seeing that in the theater, I'm still pissed they had the nerve to say this was going to be some good swan-song film, and this film should be dropped from canon.

 

[Trek Survivor]

AFAIK that's just hearsay, but quite believable. On the other hand, a good director/producer with a solid writing team would (politely) put the actors in their place. Input, yes, but only one person is the director.

Both actors confirmed their consulting input (obviously not the "not having the production's best interests at heart" bit!) in Altman/Gross' 50 Year Mission Vol 2 book. Berman, Piller and Frakes all had things to say about said input as well.

The problem is, the contracts negotiated by the studio with both actors gave them such rights - no matter what producer/director/writer you had, they'd need to play nice.

 

[Jedman67]

Both actors confirmed their consulting input (obviously not the "not having the production's best interests at heart" bit!) in Altman/Gross' 50 Year Mission Vol 2 book. Berman, Piller and Frakes all had things to say about said input as well.

The problem is, the contracts negotiated by the studio with both actors gave them such rights - no matter what producer/director/writer you had, they'd need to play nice.

Don't know enough about this kind of thing, but just look at the end product.

 

[Nebusj]

Don't know enough about this kind of thing, but just look at the end product.

Are franchise movies likely to be better when the actors who have been in every episode of the underlying series and all previous movies, and who have spoken all but a trivial exception of the words the characters ever expressed, and have defined the performances of the characters, are not consulted about the things the characters are likely to say and do?

 

[Jedman67]

The problem wasn't consulting with the actors, the problem was giving too much creative direction to the actors that it stifled the rest of the product.
Not to mention that it's not the actors who create or design the characters, they are simply offering the portrayal.

 

[Emperor Norton]

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I just think Generations should have been like "Yesterday's Enterprise" with Kirk aboard the 1701-B coming through a temporal opening to encounter Picard's1701-D. No Nexus. In 1994, at the height of Star Trek popularity killing Kirk in the disappointing Nexus story was a waste of a great character. Kirk should have died in command of the 1701-B saving others...not falling to his death fighting on a walkway on a planet and being anonymously buried under a pile of rocks by Picard. Picard should have brought Kirk's body back on the shuttlecraft that picked him up and brought it back to Earth for a proper Starfleet burial or at least like WOK Spock's on board one of the starship's that recovered the 1701-D crew.

"Bridge....on the Captain."

 

[Tenacity]

Generations;

During the movie we meet and come to know Ensign Lynch, who Picard kills in FC.

While a interesting scene, the Enterprise doesn't explode/crash, and the Enterprise D is retained for all the movies.

The original shot scene with Soren's death is used. Picard programs the probe to crash, Soren attacks Picard, Picard shots Soren in the stomach with his own gun.

Kirk isn't killed (injured at most), he's standing next to Picard when the shuttle comes into view, we don't see him again in the movie and his eventual fate is left open.

First Contact;

We get to know Lt. Hawk a little better, giving his death more meaning.

Insurrection;

Beverly (and maybe Worf) verbally disagrees with Picard's position on collecting the magic particles. Beverly argues on the side of the medical benefits and refuses to help Picard's plan. As a added plus she stays on the ship and we get no boob joke.

At the end of the movie, Riker informs Picard (after the rescue) that the Federation Council confirms their earlier approval of the operation and that Picard is directly ordered to completely remove all Humanoid life from the planet. Stunned, Picard instructs Riker to "see to it" and walks in silence to his ready room.

Nemesis;

In the scene where Data deactivates B4, instead Data disintegrates B4. There's no scene with B4 and Picard in Picard's ready room.

Tom Hardy is a fine actor, but was wrong for this role. Cast a different actor, and the character of Shinzon has hair.

Lose the dune buggy sequence.

Still acquire B4 somehow. B4 is less sophisticated than Data, but only slightly below normal intelligence.

and head directly for Earth?

Kind of been done to death hasn't it?

 

[Emperor Norton]

Kind of been done to death hasn't it?

It is where the audience lives, and hence they identify with the danger. Andoria doesn't have the same impact to it. They don't attend American films. Nothing but French New Wave.

 

[E-DUB]

Minor changes to be sure, but in "Generations" they should have sprung for a cameo by Joan Collins as Edith Keeler in the Nexus. Would have made Kirk's sacrifice more tragic than his walking out on some gal we'd never even heard of.

In "Nemesis", have Shinzon preparing to destroy Romulus instead of Earth. Then Picard would have been risking his ship and crew to save a sometime adversary from their own creation. In an epilogue (heck, a screen crawl would have done it), it is noted that Picard is then named ambassador to Romulus and Riker is slated to command the fixed-up Enterprise-E.

 

[M-Red]

Generations: Provide Kirk with a fitting death or don't kill him.

First Contact: Leave it basically as-is.

Nemesis: Romulan Movie 1 -- introduce the setting and plot for the climax story to the entire TNG Era; eliminate the Reman concept entirely and focus on the Romulans and a singular Romulan emperor; put Worf on Q'noS as Ambassador and a married Riker and Troi on the Titan; have Spock appear in the final scene of the film as the situation looks hopeless for the Federation; end in a cliff-hanger

Destiny: Romulan Movie 2 -- weave together the stories of Picard and the E-E crew with Riker/Troi, Worf, and Spock; resolve the major conflict between the Romulan Empire and the Federation after the death of the Romulan emperor in a similar way that TUC delivered for the TOS crew and the Klingons

Immortality: Q Movie -- have a bright and soft-hearted coda of a film centered around Q and Humanity's Final Test before the Continuum; make it the natural extension of Encounter at Farpoint and All Good Things...; make it fun and adventurous and show the audience new and visually exciting places; maybe introduce a new lovable and kind-hearted species in need of help and give Picard a moral dilemma to solve; use Q to wrap up the broader TNG/DS9/VOY Era; give Data a heroic sacrificial death and a Holodeck funeral scene attended by thankful friends reminiscent of Tasha Yar; have Our Heroes say goodbye gracefully and go out on top with a feeling of respectable closure for all involved.

 

[suarezguy]

Agreed on making the films not quite so Data-centric, especially not trying to make him funny, at least after the first two films.

Maybe make Soran and especially Shinzon (or an actual Romulan) and maybe Ru'affo less bad guys and more sympathetic, somewhat reasonable antagonists so that the films feel (even) less like (trying to be) typical action movies.