T'pol's uniform/first vulcan in Star Fleet

[Tenacity]

Seven wasn't a officer in Starfleet, why would she wear a uniform?

Yes, she did wear one as a disguise once, but she normally didn't wear a uniform for a reason, that being she's a civilian.

If Jellico took command of DS9, would he tell Keiko to wear a uniform?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Seven had a specific duty station on Voyager (Astrometrics) that would normally be staffed by a Starfleet officer. And being a former Borg, she most likely retains much of the knowledge of assimilated Starfleet crew. So I'd think she'd be more than qualified to wear a Starfleet uniform if she so chose.

Especially since most of the Maquis on board had never served in Starfleet, or had even close to the amount of training or experience that the real Starfleet crew did - and yet all of the Maquis wore uniforms anyway. So if they can, then Seven can.

The only thing I can think of is that Seven simply didn't want to wear a Starfleet uniform.

And there's also that bit about the EMH designing a suit for her that gave her body the support that it needed after it was disconnected from the collective. Initially, she couldn't simply wear normal human clothes because her muscles, spine, back, etc. had grown dependent on a Borg suit and she needed additional assistance. Kind of like how some space station crews, after coming back from extended tours in space, had lost much of their muscle mass and needed therapy before being able to function on Earth again.

 

[Sci]

I never had a problem with the catsuit - I like boobs.

I find it hard to equate the catsuit with turning T'Pol into an object.

You're the boss at your company and you have instituted a rule that says that women employees have to wear skin-tight catsuits (which explicitly lift the bosom, I might add) at the office. (Comparable since members of space services like the United Earth Starfleet and the Vulcan High Command are required to wear duty uniforms.) Now try arguing that what you're doing isn't sexist and objectifying when they complain.

I would be delighted to see how many sexual harassment lawsuits your company is able to fight at once.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Now try arguing that what you're doing isn't sexist and objectifying when they complain.

Okay: Female members of the service have to have some form of support, because in space, your bra would strangle you.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ No offense - oh, okay, offense - but how do you know what a bra would do to someone in zero-gravity?

 

[Sci]

Okay: Female members of the service have to have some form of support, because in space, your bra would strangle you.

No offense - oh, okay, offense - but how do you know what a bra would do to someone in zero-gravity?

I may be mistaken, but I believe USS Triumphant is alluding to the story of how the late Carrie Fisher wanted to be remembered: "Drowned in moonlight, strangled by her own bra."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Oh. Alrighty then. Much apologizings.

 

[Long Syntax]

You're the boss at your company and you have instituted a rule that says that women employees have to wear skin-tight catsuits (which explicitly lift the bosom, I might add) at the office. (Comparable since members of space services like the United Earth Starfleet and the Vulcan High Command are required to wear duty uniforms.) Now try arguing that what you're doing isn't sexist and objectifying when they complain.

I would be delighted to see how many sexual harassment lawsuits your company is able to fight at once.

Comment 1 was me being flippant - not apologizing, just acknowledging. Comment 2 was my honest assessment. Yes I understand your point and I see truth in it, but in my mind it (meaning the catsuit) wasn't the defining aspect of the character.

 

[Sci]

Comment 1 was me being flippant - not apologizing, just acknowledging. Comment 2 was my honest assessment. Yes I understand your point and I see truth in it, but in my mind it (meaning the catsuit) wasn't the defining aspect of the character.

Oh, I completely agree that the catsuit is not the defining aspect of the character of T'Pol. But I do think it is an important and very sexist creative decision on a metatextual level.

 

[Prax]

T'Pol was a member of the Vulcan High Command. She held a Vulcan Rank. And Vulcans either wore dark, tight fitting, futuristic suits or Jedi Robes.

If We complain about T'Pol or Seven, then surely we can't ignore Troy, who received the most public "flak" about Her catsuits. And what about DS9? Hello? She was the walking stereotype in-the-flesh, of a dumb, hot, easy bimbo.

Seven was complex. She was innocent and childlike, but super smart, competent, and engaging.

T'Pol was competent, smarter than all the human men, but vulnerable in her own way. She was very 3 dimensional.

Troy was very ........I dunno.......she was.....very.....


I dunno


She was very "I feeeeel"

 

[Tenacity]

You're the boss at your company and you have instituted a rule that says that women employees have to wear skin-tight catsuits

Problem with the scenario you're suggesting is Janeway never told Seven to wear the tight clothing, and neither did Archer with T'Pol.

T'Pol garb was either of her own choosing (which is what I think), or it came from the Vulcan High Command dress code.

Seven's style of dress came from her health provider.

I would be delighted to see how many sexual harassment lawsuits your company is able to fight at once.

And if you (as a employer) told your female employees that their chosen clothing was too snug, again watch the lawsuits pour in.

Remember, a company doesn't have to do anything wrong in order to be sued.

 

[diankra]

Seven wasn't a officer in Starfleet, why would she wear a uniform?

Yes, she did wear one as a disguise once, but she normally didn't wear a uniform for a reason, that being she's a civilian.
-
If Jellico took command of DS9, would he tell Keiko to wear a uniform?

A side problem is that all of Voyager's Maquis crew seem to go into Starfleet uniform. Ok, a lot of them are ex-Starfleet, but surely some Maquis were civilians.
Most obviously, Seska as a Cardassian who infiltrates the Maquis is credible. Cardassian who infiltrates Starfleet, goes through SFA unspotted, and then throws that away to join the Maquis... less so. (Though orders are orders, I suppose. If the Obsidian Order said Do It, she probably would).

 

[Prax]

Did the the show say that Seska was former Starfleet? If so, that may work if the Cardassians wanted to know more about how SF was really supplying the Maquis(cuz we know they were.) And if they really weren't. The Cardassians would take it as a given, that they were

 

[Tenacity]

Seven had a specific duty station on Voyager (Astrometrics) that would normally be staffed by a Starfleet officer

As did Kes (nurse) and Neelix (cook).

Starfleet vessels have had civilians aboard before, contractors, specialists, scientists.

As for the Maquis, their joining Voyager's Starfleet crew was engineered by Chakotay, their commander at the time. My impression was as individuals they didn't get any say in the matter.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As did Kes (nurse) and Neelix (cook).

Those were not Starfleet duty postings, as such. "Cook" definitely isn't, and civilians like Kes can be nurses and medical assistants. Astrometrics, OTOH, is a duty station that can really only be filled by a qualified Starfleet crewperson.

As for the Maquis, their joining Voyager's Starfleet crew was engineered by Chakotay, their commander at the time. My impression was as individuals they didn't get any say in the matter.

Not the point. Some of the Maquis crew were never in Starfleet, yet they still got to wear the uniforms. So why can they wear them, but not Seven?

 

[Sci]

Problem with the scenario you're suggesting is Janeway never told Seven to wear the tight clothing,

You'd almost think my post was talking about T'Pol rather than Seven of Nine.

and neither did Archer with T'Pol.

T'Pol garb was either of her own choosing (which is what I think), or it came from the Vulcan High Command dress code.

What on Earth is your point? How is this the least bit germaine to the point I was making? I didn't frame it as Archer's or the U.E. Starfleet's fault. I was referring specifically to the catsuit being a uniform of the Vulcan High Command which she was compelled to wear by the rules of a space service.

But I don't particularly care which fictional organization is at fault, because the point was that it is a sexist creative decision from a metatextual standpoint, and that we can tell it is sexist because it is implausible that an organization that claims to treat its subordinates equally would not be accused of sexism for having a uniform like that in real life.

Not the point. Some of the Maquis crew were never in Starfleet, yet they still got to wear the uniforms. So why can they wear them, but not Seven?

I mean, I'm fine with the idea of Seven not wanting to take a Federation Starfleet field commission the way the Maquis crew members chose to. I just think the creative decision to dress the character in a skintight, lifts-and-separates-each-boob catsuit was ridiculous and sexist.

 

[Ithekro]

The Mauquis were ordered to wear Starfleet uniforms in an effort to combine the crew that had prior to their trip to the Delta Quadrant been enemies or at least not entirely friendly. It was an combined order from the two ship captains in an effort to keep the peace and after about a year it worked.

As for female attire in Star Trek, I would point out that many species have sexified uniforms for female officers. Even ones it positions of power. In the TOS era, the Romulan Commander's uniform was quite tight and at only a tad longer than the likes of Uhura (it was thicker material though). 24th century Romulan females have more armor it seems. Kang's crew presented us with a Klingon female uniform in the 23rd century and wer more reasonable even with very high boots. 24th century Klingons females start to get breast windows from time to time with high ranks.

As Dax pointed out somewhat, the 2260s were sexy.

 

[Prax]

In TNG civilians wear tight fitting, one piece jump suits. Men, Women, and Children. It's sort of a thing. Ds9 too

We can't criticize one show, without criticizing all of the shows, lest we become major hypocrites

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Yup, nothing sexist about Seven of Nine's uniform at all! Move along, move along.

 

[Tenacity]

So why can they wear them, but not Seven?

They can wear them owing to them being officially Starfleet personal, the Maquis didn't wear the uniform until after they were in Starfleet.

Seven doesn't wear a uniform as her standard because she isn't in Starfleet. If she had expressed an desire to join Starfleet, I believe Janeway would have been agreeable.

But she didn't, Seven was a civilian. She was willing to work on the ship, but not join Starfleet.