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Doug Drexler defends the NX-01/Akira differences on "Trekyards"

Recall, for a moment, the second half of "For the Uniform" where the DS9 crew had to run the Defiant on manual control because Eddington had fragged their computers. If you actually want to show a more primitive time for Starfleet before they had solved all their problems, try THAT mode of operation for an entire season. It would have accomplished that task a lot more effectively than "Captain, I think you should take a look at this... um, according to our service records, we're actually a bunch of idiots who don't understand how most of our technology even works."

I love that episode, and I love that scene. But I think it would have gotten old quick, and were it presented frequently, would have interfered with story progression. I think, much like Reed's creation "Tactical Alert," they would have had to come up with some way of aggregating various procedures under one order. But it might have been fun to see that evolution.
 
Recall, for a moment, the second half of "For the Uniform" where the DS9 crew had to run the Defiant on manual control because Eddington had fragged their computers. If you actually want to show a more primitive time for Starfleet before they had solved all their problems, try THAT mode of operation for an entire season. It would have accomplished that task a lot more effectively than "Captain, I think you should take a look at this... um, according to our service records, we're actually a bunch of idiots who don't understand how most of our technology even works."
A larger, more sprawling Bridge full of extras running in and out and gabbing into communicators to relay crucial info to the rest of the ship would have helped convey that sense of "gritty realism" too. Unfortunately, as Trek series went on they got more and more efficient at reducing the number of Bridge stations until no extras were required at all. Good for the budget; less good for a realistic portrayal of a working ship.
 
"I really it would be a really damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Take out the phasers and you lose an element of Star Trek. Take out the warp drive and you lose an element of Star Trek."

Agreed.
You could also factor in that after 21 seasons of 24th century 'Trek', losing more of the gadgets and gimmicks would have been a huge culture shock for a section of the audience.
 
Agreed.
You could also factor in that after 21 seasons of 24th century 'Trek', losing more of the gadgets and gimmicks would have been a huge culture shock for a section of the audience.

For all the complaints that things were "the same" the differences sure are lost on people. Hell, Enterprise's torpedoes hardly worked for the first two seasons. We saw them steal the schematics from a Klingon ship.

At a certain point, even if you want to get extremely technical and pedantic, there had to be a certain level of automation built into any ship doing what we regularly see ships in Star Trek doing. We also have to accept a certain set of protocols regarding how the ship is handled have already been developed.

We do see them develop interspecies and intercultural policies but no one liked that stuff.
 
A larger, more sprawling Bridge full of extras running in and out and gabbing into communicators to relay crucial info to the rest of the ship would have helped convey that sense of "gritty realism" too. Unfortunately, as Trek series went on they got more and more efficient at reducing the number of Bridge stations until no extras were required at all. Good for the budget; less good for a realistic portrayal of a working ship.

I would have loved that.. it would be in the style of the newer Battlestar Gallactica. That bridge had all sorts of controlled chaos occurring as standard operating procedure. Much like an actual naval warship, submarine, etc.

Gritty, dark, and realistic (as much as sci-fi can be) Star Trek, in it's early years, with manual controls, actual people having to do things, instead of the polished we-are-in-the-future-so-we-have-technology-to-do-things-for-us that Enterprise was, would have made the show better. More serious...

Imagine the Xindi fights, or first battles with the Klingons in space, and ultimately the Romulan War done in the shakey cam documentary style.. a real war drama sort of cinematography. Nice.
 
I would have loved that.. it would be in the style of the newer Battlestar Gallactica. That bridge had all sorts of controlled chaos occurring as standard operating procedure. Much like an actual naval warship, submarine, etc.

Gritty, dark, and realistic (as much as sci-fi can be) Star Trek, in it's early years, with manual controls, actual people having to do things, instead of the polished we-are-in-the-future-so-we-have-technology-to-do-things-for-us that Enterprise was, would have made the show better. More serious...

Imagine the Xindi fights, or first battles with the Klingons in space, and ultimately the Romulan War done in the shakey cam documentary style.. a real war drama sort of cinematography. Nice.

But why would there be less automation in the future without some kind of setting Macguffin to handwave it like BSG had? That doesn't really sound realistic at all to me; realistic to modern-day ships, maybe, but I still can't imagine that the amount of that sort of stuff hasn't declined sharply as it stands since the 1870s, so it would only decline even further by the 2150s.

I mean, we do have technology to do things for us. Today. That's a thing that's already happening, and automation has only been getting more and more prevalent. Saying that Enterprise should be like a modern day naval warship is like saying that a show set on a modern day naval warship should show it like an ironclad.
 
But why would there be less automation in the future without some kind of setting Macguffin to handwave it like BSG had? That doesn't really sound realistic at all to me; realistic to modern-day ships, maybe, but I still can't imagine that the amount of that sort of stuff hasn't declined sharply as it stands since the 1870s, so it would only decline even further by the 2150s.

I mean, we do have technology to do things for us. Today. That's a thing that's already happening, and automation has only been getting more and more prevalent. Saying that Enterprise should be like a modern day naval warship is like saying that a show set on a modern day naval warship should show it like an ironclad.

Well yeah... I see your point. I guess what I was thinking was that there would still be a crewman manning the station, operating the equipment, but that while the technology has advanced and is more capable, that doesn't eliminate the human operator. I'm also thinking about this from the pov of the writers in 2001-2005 when what we have now, some 10 years later wasn't fully realized or even possible.

Sensors may replace sonar and radar, but the sensor arrays don't operate themselves; that level of automation did not exist. Given how much physical button pushing still occurs in TOS era ships, it would fit with the timeline that there would not be more automation in a pre-TOS vessel.

One could also consider the fact that the Vulcans had allegedly been holding us back technologically. So consider that in the 100 years since the end of WWIII, we develop some new technologies, but not at the same rate of advancement that we are enjoying now in the early 21st century. So Archer and friends have artificial gravity, moderate warp drive, energy weapons, advancements in medicine, but all else has been really just polished versions of what was available after the third world war ended and much of the planet was in ruins.
 
Yeah, exactly; greater automation only comes with greater familiarity of the technology in question. If the NX01 is cutting edge, it stands to reason that most of the experimental tech with demand a more "hands on" approach
 
Fair enough of a point, true. But I still don't honestly see the appeal at all in having a bunch of people yelling things all the time as a way of making it feel less advanced. Having a bunch of people yelling orders wouldn't have made me feel "navy ship", it would've made me feel "diner"; they still have computers, even with no automation they could at least send direct messages over the internal network. :p

I never really felt a tech discontinuity from Enterprise to the other series anyway, though, which might be part of it for me. It all flowed pretty fine for me chronologically.
 
While I'm not necessarily advocating a room full of shouting officers, there's one thing that the NX01 could have had on the Bridge that would have made it felt more of an authentic prequel - more crew! The TOS Bridge had 11 stations and various Yeoman wandering about, while the NX01 had 6. That fact alone visually suggests a higher level of automation.
 
Or just less stuff on the ship. The later Enterprise has more sensor systems and probably other hardware and software than the old NX-01 did and possibly because of this there are much less need for people on the ship. The NX doesn't have a dedicated Navigator station yet, so they are using mostly known Vulcan charts for navigating.

In addition to this they learn on their early adventure that there are really some things they will need in the future to make all this space exploration and interstellar defense forcing work better than their not quite up to the task NX can handle.
 
The NX doesn't have a dedicated Navigator station yet, so they are using mostly known Vulcan charts for navigating.
But the Vulcan charts are something Starfleet negotiated just prior to the ship leaving Earth, so that can't be the reason the NX-01 was designed without a navigator's position.
 
Perhaps they had not yet had such a large enough knowledge of space beyond Earth's hundred or so light year sphere of navigation to consider warranting such a position on an Earth ship beyond the regular helm station. Later starships would add a navigation station for explorers and other vessels during the 23rd century. However by the 24th century, the navigator post was combined with the helm post as the CONN. Some ships by the later part of the 24th century no longer have two positions in front of the ship's commanding officer (Defiant and Intrepid-class starships have only one position, unlike the Galaxy-class which has the OPS position in addition to the CONN)
 
Thing is about navigating in space - is that its REALLY BIG. I would have preferred navigating in it to seem more of a challenge for our heroes, instead of mundane
 
I recall that during the bridge scenes in "The Cage" the room was even more busy than in Kirk's time. Heck, there always seemed to be a guy in the turbolift alcove just STANDING THERE.

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There always has to be a decision for what kind of balance we'll see between what it should look like X years before a time we know in the canon, and what "the future" should look like Y years after today. In ENT, they had uniforms not unlike the blue jumpsuits NASA astronauts wear, and an overall set design that was arguably less "refined" than what we would see later. But then again, they HAD to have phasers, torpedoes and so on regardless of what they had in "The Cage" and so on, supposedly to keep things on-brand and "recognizable".

Mark
 
Perhaps they had not yet had such a large enough knowledge of space beyond Earth's hundred or so light year sphere of navigation to consider warranting such a position on an Earth ship beyond the regular helm station. Later starships would add a navigation station for explorers and other vessels during the 23rd century. However by the 24th century, the navigator post was combined with the helm post as the CONN. Some ships by the later part of the 24th century no longer have two positions in front of the ship's commanding officer (Defiant and Intrepid-class starships have only one position, unlike the Galaxy-class which has the OPS position in addition to the CONN)

I always liked CLB's idea from the Rise of the Federation series that the shift to a dedicated navigator alongside the helmsman was an Andorian contribution to Starfleet ship design introduced when the four founding races were integrating their militaries and technologies and design patterns and whatnot; the Kumari had what could have been a helm/navigation split, after all. There's not a lot of space to bring in possible non-human contributions to Starfleet ship design/logistics/organization/etc., so I'm a fan of his attempts to find ways of working ones in, and that's one that really seems to work.
 
Heck, there always seemed to be a guy in the turbolift alcove just STANDING THERE.
Doesn't look like much of guard, my thought is he's a "gofer" in case Pike needed a messager, or to go get something, or someone to take over a position in hurry.

Picard's bridge alway had a extra crewperson on the bridge ready to take over a position.

The person in blue standing next to Pike is the odd man out, in that he had an unique insignia never seen again. My head canon is that he's the ship's chaplain.
 
Picard's bridge alway had a extra crewperson on the bridge ready to take over a position.

My personal favorite is in BoBW, when most of the main cast leaves the bridge, and all their replacements pop out from the various doors to take over their stations, including two or three coming out of the head.
 
But why would there be less automation in the future without some kind of setting Macguffin to handwave it like BSG had?
Because automation takes time, money and experience. You can automate a task after the task itself has been studied to death and you've had a couple of years to get an engineer to develop a whole system to make that task less labor and time intensive. That comes after YEARS of organizational experience, once your people have been doing these tasks so long and so often that you know exactly what can be automated and what can be done manually to make things easier.

Starfleet is not that organization. They've never flown into deep space before, they haven't completely figured out how everything should work. They know what they need to do, but the expertise for exactly HOW it should be done is in the heads of a few very smart people who need to be on their ship in order to do their jobs, and even those very smart people have almost no FIELD EXPERIENCE to make their jobs easier. Two decades from now, some of those bridge officers might come back and teach the next generation of Starfleet officers how to do their jobs, and they, in turn, will start talking with engineers saying "You know what would be cool? If we didn't have to physically pick up the phaser power cells and load them into their cradles by hand. We should have, like, a winch or a conveyor or something that can do that when you push a button."

And before you ask "Why didn't we have that in the first place?" It's because Enterprise was designed by a completely different group of people who designed the phaser banks; it's because the people who designed the armory are naval architects trying their hand at spaceship design for the first time and have NO IDEA what works and what doesn't work. It's because the people who designed the phaser banks have never worked on an active starship before and it never occurred to them that the power cells would have to be swapped every time the ship goes to battle stations (instead of, say, once a week or once a month).

Because knowledge isn't something you can just pull out of your ass because the script says you should know. Knowledge comes from experience, and 22nd century Starfleet doesn't have any.

I mean, we do have technology to do things for us. Today. That's a thing that's already happening, and automation has only been getting more and more prevalent. Saying that Enterprise should be like a modern day naval warship is like saying that a show set on a modern day naval warship should show it like an ironclad.
Except that modern day warships got the way they are through trial and error over 50+ years of development. The first guided missile cruisers, for example, had this amazingly complex load system where crewmen had to attach the warhead to the booster, then attach the fins, then attach the guidance system, then load the missile onto a rail to be loaded to the launcher. 20 years later they had the Mk-26 launcher with missiles that were basically pre-assembled, but still loaded (and maintained) manually before being positioned on the launch arms... and then one day someone said "Why do we even use a twin-armed launcher? Why not just fire them right out of the tubes?" and then VLS was born.

It took 30 years of trial and error for them to make that leap, and the automation systems that made that possible took at least as long. And this for a military that has effectively unlimited funding and unlimited resources to play around with shit like that. Starfleet in the 22nd century is so badly funded that the Vulcans can shut down entire exploration programs just by THREATENING to pull their support.
 
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