Paramount going ahead with ST4 according to Engage
- Thread starter timtonruben359
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I don't think there were actually any "twists." The only twist was Khan/Harrison being from the past and being genetically engineered. I mean, you can say it was a twist that it ended up being Khan, I guess. But we knew Marcus was bent on war with the Klingons.
The story is a story about revenge and how we handle violence. Three characters, three motivations. Khan is after Marcus (killing his crew), Marcus is after the Khan/the Klingons (turning on him/general hatred), and Kirk is after Khan (killing Pike).
"Into Darkness" refers to Marcus using duplicity and violence and Khan descending into violence and hatred over their respective grudges. Kirk is the only one who takes the high ground.
Even Spock's fight with Khan at the end is symbolic. Succumbing to violence can sometimes be more damaging to you than showing mercy.
I'm trying to get all meta-analysis here. I think it's all pretty clearly spelled out in the movie. I just don't think there are many twists except-maybe-that Kirk dies.
The story is a story about revenge and how we handle violence. Three characters, three motivations. Khan is after Marcus (killing his crew), Marcus is after the Khan/the Klingons (turning on him/general hatred), and Kirk is after Khan (killing Pike).
"Into Darkness" refers to Marcus using duplicity and violence and Khan descending into violence and hatred over their respective grudges. Kirk is the only one who takes the high ground.
Even Spock's fight with Khan at the end is symbolic. Succumbing to violence can sometimes be more damaging to you than showing mercy.
I'm trying to get all meta-analysis here. I think it's all pretty clearly spelled out in the movie. I just don't think there are many twists except-maybe-that Kirk dies.
Just as an addendum, I don't think twists have to necessarily surprise the viewer. Plenty of shows telegraph their twists plenty in advance. One thing I loved about Westworld, for example, is that the twists were surprising at first but became more visible. But it wasn't about the twist being surprising to us it's about how the characters handle it.
I.E. what Kirk does when Marcus confronts him. That Kirk is willing to sacrifice himself. Of course Kirk isn't going to stay dead. But he doesn't know that. McCoy and Spock don't know that. The characters' actions still have meaning.
I.E. what Kirk does when Marcus confronts him. That Kirk is willing to sacrifice himself. Of course Kirk isn't going to stay dead. But he doesn't know that. McCoy and Spock don't know that. The characters' actions still have meaning.
If that's the case, then why didn't they just reveal when Cumberbatch was cast that he was Khan?
In no way is an Admiral being evil a plot twist for a Star Trek story. That's like saying the plot twist of Titanic is that the supposedly unsinkable ship sinks.
Because JJ is obsessed with mystery boxes. He even admitted to it being a mistake later on. How does the reveal that Harrison's name is actually Khan affect the plot? The reveal changes nothing. Call him Harrison, call him Khan, call him Sherlock - it's meaningless to the films plot. In order to be a plot twist it had to, well twist the plot in someway. The Khan reveal changes nothing. It's just fan wank. And not even good fan wank like "I ripped my shirt again" .
Granted, it's not a good twist, but the reveal that Marcus was a villian the entire time and using Khan and Kirk to start a war with the Klingons is the driving force of the film. It was Marcus using Khan that set off Khan's terrorist actions. It was Marcus exploiting that to send Kirk into Klingon space. It was Marcus who sabotaged the Enterprise so it would be stuck in Klingon space. It was Marcus who built the Vengeance. It was Marcus whole went out to kill Kirk and Co when Kirk changed his mind about the torpedoes.The discovery that Marcus, a heretofore good guy, is the villian and subsequent monologuing is what changes the plot. Not the reveal that the name of one character who we've spent, what, five minutes with, and has had three lines, is different than what we were previously told
Really, Khan (Harrison, Sherlock) is incidental to all this. Just a other pawn like Kirk.
It makes the whole "bodies in torpedoes" a bit more impactful, and ties into the "is there anything you would not do for your family" theme. Having it be Khan, rather than, say, Joachim or random superman #11, is more significant given his role as their leader.
I certainly understand why they'd want to make him Khan. Just reading reactions to Rogue One, and seeing people gush over Darth Vader's role at the end, reminds me how Trek really lacks iconic villains. Khan is arguably the only one (maybe the Borg too), and even then not in the league of Darth Vader. The reboots went back to the most iconic crew, and it's only natural to team them with the most - if not only - iconic villain.
Eh, I thought it was pretty good. Using Khan essentially as a decoy villain is pretty bold, and there was a point where Kirk and Marcus were definitely on the same page. The ostensible hero came so close to being an unwitting lackey in an horrific act. Given how carefully Shatner's Kirk was protected (much to the dismay of some TOS writers), I found that quite refreshing.
How is it impactful? What literal difference to the plot does it make? Outside of a shoehorned in Leonard Nimoy cameo, what does changing his name change in the story being told? Absolutely nothing. That's one of the reasons the Khan reveal is so constantly ridiculed. It means nothing to the characters since they don't have the 15 year history with him that the TWOK crew had, and it means nothing to the plot because it in no way changes the story being told.
Get rid of the reveal that Marcus is the bad guy though and everything changes.
That's a plot twist. A name change is just a name change.
Get rid of the reveal that Marcus is the bad guy though and everything changes.
That's a plot twist. A name change is just a name change.
Yup. Really impactful. Nothing really says "I will protect you" than shoving your loved ones into armed WMDs.
They weren't armed, though. The fuel compartments were removed. It's not clear whether or not Marcus knew that when he gave them to Kirk.
Edit: I should say, they're not functional-as-intended. Presumably if the Enterprise fired them they would launch and then drift off confusingly into Klingon space.
(A) Khan hid his people inside weapons that could be taken and fired in space against a target at any moment and which still had their warheads i.e. explosives inside. Regardless of what else was missing. And then he abandoned them to their mercy.
(B) Admiral Marcus didn't knew that they had supermen inside them. He genuinely gave them to the Enterprise to fire them against the Klingons. The Klingons wouldn't retaliate because the Enterprise was out of their border.(!?)
(C) Or something along those lines. That's script is so full of holes that you can fly the Enterprise inside them. And no, not the TOS "E" but the huge JJprise.
There are plenty of "holes" in a script when you don't pay attention to it!
KHAN: I tried to smuggle them to safety by concealing them in the very weapons I had designed, but I was discovered. I had no choice but to escape alone. And when I did, I had every reason to suspect that Marcus had killed every single one of the people I hold most dear.
...
MARCUS: He put those people in those torpedoes. And I simply didn't want to burden you with knowing what was inside of them.
So he was forced to abandon them upon being discovered, and Marcus was well aware of their content.
Exactly. It's a bit clumsily handled in the film, but Marcus decided to kill two birds with one stone -- he'd start a war, and he'd have Khan and his associates killed by the Enterprise. So no one would know that he had pulled a total boner by waking up a warlord.
A) Bones and Marcus didn't know it wasn't a live torpedo because they couldn't get any readings from it.
B) If they had the idea to remove the bodies from the casings, it follows the next thought was to put a new warhead back in them if the chance was there for a double-cross.
So how exactly will Admiral Marcus start the war if the torpedoes are duds and he knows it?
Klingons see Federation technology impacting their planet, you really think they're gonna ask questions or do an investigation? Plus, those weapons still had propulsion systems, which could generate a pretty good bang upon impact. The picture that Marcus paints for Kirk gives the impression that not much of a push needs to be given to start up a full-scale war with the Klingon Empire.
No on screen discussion states there are no warheads in the torpedoes and Kirk assumed the bodies were still in the torpedos when they detonated, McCoy had to explain that the Botany Bay crew were still alive, meaning the warheads were in the torpedoes at the same time as the bodies.
Okay,
A) Khan hid the crew in the torpedoes and assumes Marcus destroyed them until Sulu sends his broadcast.
B) The warheads are clearly still in the torpedoes but the fuel has been removed to make room for the bodies.
C) Assuming the Enterprise doesn't just throw the torpedoes out of the way gently, they'll probably get a push from whatever firing mechanism the ship uses.
A) Khan hid the crew in the torpedoes and assumes Marcus destroyed them until Sulu sends his broadcast.
B) The warheads are clearly still in the torpedoes but the fuel has been removed to make room for the bodies.
C) Assuming the Enterprise doesn't just throw the torpedoes out of the way gently, they'll probably get a push from whatever firing mechanism the ship uses.
Fuel must still be in them too. As per Beyond with an identical casing there is room for a human being inside along with fuel and obviously Scotty didn't have the time to disarm and remove the warheads by himself. It seems like there's just a human size hole in font of a window in photon torpedos.
Why?
Plot.
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