Gul Dukat

[Triskelion]

The Dominion aren't colonisers though. They do some hands-on work by sending out saboteurs but they get the Vorta to administer their territory and the Jem-Hadar to enforce it whilst the changelings stay at home -- aside from the aforementioned acts of sabotage and the occasional personal appearance.

The bajoran colonisation just flagged to the Dominion that they were there.. The changelings are out to bring order to unruly solids and they are willing to extend their sphere of influence to any solids within range.

If person A pays hitman B to carry out a "job', and hitman B gets caught and arrested, and leads police to Person A - do you really think that person A will escape justice? That he or she will be considered "Innnocent" in almost any criminal justice system?

The Founders created the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar, specifically to "take the heat" for them, via soft power and hard power. This was no alliance, this was - a mafia organization.

As for your second paragraph I think you are thinking of the Borg. What exactly is meant here by "sphere of influence"? You mean subjugation in every way that matters - don't you? Or the very influential counter-proposition of - death?

The Founders worked hard to preserve their plausible deniability, but what they sought, what became clear the more we got to know them, was their arrogant desire to subjugate everyone within their "sphere of linfluence". Even those who did not, in fact, appreciate their "influence".

No, that's expansionism - militarily, culturally, economically, and spiritually too. What the Dominion sought, what we saw, was nothing short of absolute control over two galactic quadrants, with, very likely, no new self-imposed restrictions over the rest of the galaxy. They sought to program entire races at the genetic level to their own ends, and situate themselves as gods, unthinkable to defy, and eventually, unable to even question. Case in point, the Vorta - perfectly reasonable in diplomacy, completely genetically brainwashed about the sham divinity of mundane physical beings.

Could gods die of illness? By definition - no.

Would gods lose their own war?

Would innocents start one?

They were mortal, and they were savage hegemons with no recourse to law.

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

The Dominion is very easy to understand actually... They are similar to Species 8472 in the desire for purity of sorts, and the Borg for absolute control and subjecting all encountered species (yes I know - not by assimilation but you get the idea. )

The Dominion was nothing like a Mafia organization - it was a Totalitarian regime -

1. Founders
2. Vorta
3. Jem'Hadar

They were a three tier system and all three were part of everything. Cardassia was nothing more than a beach-head within the Alpha Quadrant... Dukat? Dukat is not hard to figure out.. He goes whatever way he thinks would benefit him, and in his mind benefit Cardassia... I found my view of Dukat was not as bad as I had thought it would be.. His motives were not always negative - although not in line with the Federation - which for purposes of Star Trek is always negative however.

The Founders where in the same place every tyrannical figure has always been in... The ones who are all knowing, always right, doing what they feel as right for the 'greater good' of their followers. They are worshiped just like Kim Jong Un is worshiped in North Korea, or Stalin and Hitler in their respective regimes..

To think the Founders ever had any other goal, other than conquest of all who are different than themselves, or opposed absolute Dominion authority is a little off base.. The Klingon-Cardassian War was nothing more than a idiotic move by the Klingons... and it served the Founders and the Dominion well.. Without the Cardissian beach head in the Alpha Quadrant, the invasion would have been a lot more difficult with the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, and every other non aligned entity waiting for them at the wormhole.

The Dominion war would have happened nonetheless - it just would have taken a different shape - however the way it would have happened would have most likely been the same. Dominion would have failed - as all authoritarian regimes do.

 

[Paradise City]

If person A pays hitman B to carry out a "job', and hitman B gets caught and arrested, and leads police to Person A - do you really think that person A will escape justice? That he or she will be considered "Innnocent" in almost any criminal justice system?

The Founders created the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar, specifically to "take the heat" for them, via soft power and hard power. This was no alliance, this was - a mafia organization.

That's fine but you're not really intruding on anything I've said. One can be an imperialist and not be a coloniser you know?

IAs for your second paragraph I think you are thinking of the Borg. What exactly is meant here by "sphere of influence"? You mean subjugation in every way that matters - don't you? Or the very influential counter-proposition of - death?

The Founders worked hard to preserve their plausible deniability, but what they sought, what became clear the more we got to know them, was their arrogant desire to subjugate everyone within their "sphere of linfluence". Even those who did not, in fact, appreciate their "influence".

No, that's expansionism - militarily, culturally, economically, and spiritually too. What the Dominion sought, what we saw, was nothing short of absolute control over two galactic quadrants, with, very likely, no new self-imposed restrictions over the rest of the galaxy. They sought to program entire races at the genetic level to their own ends, and situate themselves as gods, unthinkable to defy, and eventually, unable to even question. Case in point, the Vorta - perfectly reasonable in diplomacy, completely genetically brainwashed about the sham divinity of mundane physical beings.

Could gods die of illness? By definition - no.

Would gods lose their own war?

Would innocents start one?

They were mortal, and they were savage hegemons with no recourse to law.

OK - but can you point to the post where I've said they aren't expansionists? Or that I maintained their innocence? I'm just a bit confused as to what you are arguing with me about.

The borg and the founders share a thirst for unbridled expansion. The salient differences are two-fold. 1. The borg integrate target populations outright and in every way whereas the dominion are content to subjugate their conquests into autonomous regions under a tight oversight 2. the borg think of themselves as altruists driven towards perfection whereas the founders are quite cynical with their projects.

The founders engineered the Jem'Hadar from scratch I think. The Vorta were engineered from a monkey species according to the dialogue. And through these mechanisms they conquered and ruled their patchwork empire of subject peoples and species.

 

[Paradise City]

I think the Borg are Space Soviets and the founders are Space Mafia. The Borg demand total ideological obedience and you'll be purged if you don't comply. The founders want your economy and there'll be some Jem Hadar around every week to collect the cash. And if you don't cough up the Jem-Hadar will break your knee-caps. After that the Dominion don't care what you get up to as long as they stay out of their way.

 

[Triskelion]

That's fine but you're not really intruding on anything I've said. One can be an imperialist and not be a coloniser you know?

You are right, one can be an imperialist and not a colonizer. In my zeal to rant I read "they weren't colonizers" but for some reason heard "they weren't imperialists". Mea culpa. But to be fair, would we even be aware of a colony of shapeshifters living on any world they pleased? All we know is that they did in fact insert spies into various governments. But I will concede that they seemed to enjoy nothing more than being in the Great Link. Though having lived in overpopulated China - I can't really relate with that desire. Give me some elbow room!

OK - but can you point to the post where I've said they aren't expansionists? Or that I maintained their innocence? I'm just a bit confused as to what you are arguing with me about.

Yes, it is where you said:

The bajoran colonisation just flagged to the Dominion that they were there.. The changelings are out to bring order to unruly solids and they are willing to extend their sphere of influence to any solids within range.

You are talking about a sphere of influence and I maintain that it's not just a cultural sphere, but a fully-economically engaged invasion and exploitation of resouces. The Founders destroyed whole Cardassian cities for their own ends, and no matter how you slice it, that ain't "laissez-faire" influence. That is full-blown genocide, whether you end up living on your new planet or not. The planet's residents are immaterial to the Founders, as would be all other life outside of their cloister - including the Prophets, the Q continuum, and the entirety of he Progenitors' legacy throughout all four quadrants of the rubber-foreheaded galaxy.

That they sat back and let the Vorta and Jem'Hadar do their labor makes them no less accountable for their crimes - nor their avaricious ambitions. They are not innocent, they are not reserved, they are not rational, and they are not excused by euphamistic descriptions of their motivations. They are as arrogant as gods, perhaps, but that's where the resemblence ends.

Unmastered Avarice - always coiling in wait, always cloaking itself in weakness and shadow, but it's inevitably as aggressive as any savage animal.

Ultimately their own greed won them nothing but a brush with their own genocide. Can we call that Section 31's "sphere of influence" too? I would not, but perhaps others would.

 

[Nyotarules]

The Klingon - Cardessian war was influenced by Founder Martok, they played on the Klingon psyche's desire for a good fight, (they believed Cardessia had been taken over/influenced by the Founders, the irony was it was them) and it worked.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The war would have happened eventually, just it would have stayed cold longer. Dukat's deal with the founders led to the mining of the wormhole, which is what made it hot.

Without that, Dominion would have kept playing it slow, kept secretly trying to divide alliances, until they had either a crushing advantage or another similar opportunity.

Remember, Founders don't care whether the war lasts two years or a hundred years, as long as they win.

 

[Triskelion]

And these are the same Founders who DNA-encoded the Vorta into believing they were gods. Not sure about the Jem'Hadar, they didn't seem to have the capacity for judgment in the first place. The Founders would likely have spread that belief right along with their AQ war; eiither through cultural appropriation, DNA, or genocide.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Dominion aren't interested in 'Purity', they're interested in order. They feel that if they do not have absolute power over the solids the solids will try to wipe them out as they have in the past.

 

[Nyotarules]

The Dominion aren't interested in 'Purity', they're interested in order. They feel that if they do not have absolute power over the solids the solids will try to wipe them out as they have in the past.

Shoot first and never ask questions philosophy, they must be NRA members lol

 

[Mordwyn Fen-Dweller]

I would say the Dominion would have just tried to find another partner in crime in the Alpha Quadrant, the Romulans seemed game to at least stay back until there enemies wore each other down, even with a Dominion victory over the Klingons and the Federation, Dominion forces would be severely drained, Weyoun reminds us that it's going to take huge armies to hold these new territories, the Romulans could have struck before the Dominion had time to consolidate their forces and build up arms for the invasion of Romulus.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I don't think Dukat was a Dominion puppet. Dukat was man enough to hold his own vs. Weyoun. On the other hand, Damar was not man enough and he very much was a Dominion puppet.

Whaaaaa? No. Damar has, arguably, the most radical character arc in all of Star Trek. He goes from nameless mook to basically saviour of the Alpha Quadrant inside of a few years. He duped Weyoun pretty good after he decided to change sides in the war. He's an awesome guy and a credit to all Cardassians. Damar is my darling.

 

[Mordwyn Fen-Dweller]

Raise a glass of Kanar for ones homies.....

 

[CommanderRaytas]

 

[JirinPanthosa]

War would have happened but it would have been postponed. Without a legitimized ally they would have continued to play the long positional game. Playing AQ powers against each other and destabilizing governments until a power void appeared.