Was blowing up Romulus a good idea?

[Rahul]

Honestly, the "backstory" of Trek09 was the shittiest part of that movie.

"A supernova threatening to destroy the galaxy"? Really? Really?
Red matter? Creating a new starship instead of using an old one to transport it? Have the most dangerous matter in the galaxy transported without any security personal into enemy territory by an old, retired and defected ambassador Spock?

Really, the whole "backstory" was shit. It's only motivation was to give Nero something to grieve about without actually do something that has consequences. That was it's intend. Don't have consequences. The prime universe was to be discontinued at this point. They went rampant, because they could get some nice visuals and motivation out of it without it having to make sense.

Literally, this backstory was shit.

Apart from that, Star Trek 09 was a pretty decent movie. I would hate it if the Kelvin-Universe gets discontinued and only the worst aspect of it continues on. I would rather have the Kelvin universe be a single entity as a whole. Let them stand on their own. They should be what Marvels' "ultimate"-line was. A reboot/what-if scenario. A good recap and entertaining introduction into the universe.

I know, technically the destruction of Romulus happened in the prime universe. But then, on the other hand, I don't think we had EVER a franchise that tried to reboot itself, and then went back on the reboot. They created a big clusterfuck, because they weren't couragious enough to either make a clean reboot or a clean prequel. Because they were afraid. Of fan-backlash. Of commiting to something. Now they have created an unresolvable mess.

They should ignore it. I have zero problem with the nuTrek movies being part of the Trek legacy. Because they are. But please, please, ignore their failed atttempt at handling continuity/canon.

 

[DonIago]

It was a Kobayashi Maru for TPTB. If they ignored the Primeverse with the new films they were going to get flak, and if they didn't ignore the Primeverse with the new films, they were going to get flak.

The only thing that differed was the kind of flak.

I appreciate the difficult spot they found themselves in.

 

[Timo]

If one applies Next Generation era known advanced technologies to the Jellyfish, it becomes rather easy for Spock to get to the center of an exploding supernova with metaphasic shields and the like.

Perhaps. Alas, again we're stuck with what actually happens in the movie: Spock is shown dropping the red matter to the outside of the expanding wall of fire, and it starts consuming a hole in that wall. Not "center", no flying through the wall, and it really looks as if it would take centures for the slowly expanding black smudge to consume even one star system's full of that fire, let alone interstellar amounts of it (and never mind that it would be interstellar in those centuries anyway).

My idea is the entirety of the Red Matter isn't "usable," only the Matter at the core of the sphere. The stuff around the core is basically worthless and serves only as a container.

Sounds interesting and appropriate. But it might not necssarily be that there are differences within the blob - it might just be that if you have less than the demonstrated amount, the whole thing will go sour.

We don't know what makes a droplet start creating black holes, really. It doesn't do that yet when pulled into the syringe and injected into the vial. Perhaps it's a matter of time, and smaller amounts go "unstable" sooner than large amounts?

When the entire load blows in the conclusion of the movie, it isn't that simple, though: it shatters into droplets, then those droplets start attracting each other without yet going "black", then we again have the big lump, and then the whole lump blows.

I don't have a problem with that - the very point of the stuff is to be both magical and exciting-looking, and it succeeds there all right.

Honestly, the "backstory" of Trek09 was the shittiest part of that movie.

No contest there!

Then again, it was engineered right from the start to be something the heroes gloss over with literally one sentence (even if it was an illustrated one)... A character tells a story, it may or may not be true, but that's one explanation for why another character behaves like he does, and that other character certainly does behave like that and that's what the hero has to deal with, so moving on. That's an upside, not a downside: in a movie that already dwells on two time levels, glossing over the third and anything else that might have happened off screen is only welcome.

It was a Kobayashi Maru for TPTB.

Heh, originally the whole Kobayashi Maru thing was invented so that the writers could have their cake and eat it, too. It was introduced for ST2 primarily so that Spock could both "die" and DIE, thus mindfucking those fans who had already learned that Nimoy's character was likely to crock it in the new movie. Best of both worlds, sort of.

Romulus blowing up is in many ways similar. Romulus may or may not be dead (Nero claims he saved it, Spock may have saved it, too), but Vulcan definitely is dead now.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

What with Praxis--and the the Hobus star-- this all leaves the Feds pretty well off. Section 31 approves

 

[Timo]

Or then not - "threatens the galaxy" might well mean that with the Romulans gone, all hell breaks loose and three months later the Klingon-Tholian alliance conquers Earth.

At least the political interpretation of that line is easier to swallow than the physical. Although since Spock is both a diplomat and a scientist, both interpretations would have certain contextual merit.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

A weakened Romulan Star Empire pretty much is going to be invaded by the Klingons just out of hand.

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

Or the Federation would take it over via diplomacy and giving aid to anti imperial dissidents.

 

[Greg Cox]

It was a Kobayashi Maru for TPTB. If they ignored the Primeverse with the new films they were going to get flak, and if they didn't ignore the Primeverse with the new films, they were going to get flak.

The only thing that differed was the kind of flak.

I appreciate the difficult spot they found themselves in.

Pretty much.

And if they tried to keep the new movies in the Prime Universe, as actual prequels to the TV shows, they were letting themselves in for years of fannish nitpicking, just like poor Enterprise.

("But where is Gary Mitchell? And what about Dr. Piper? And Janice Lester?" Etc.)

Better to just yank the "canon" Band-Aid off in fell one swoop rather than suffer lots of annoying little stings.

 

[Set Harth]

Romulus may or may not be dead (Nero claims he saved it, Spock may have saved it, too)

What are you talking about?

Nero did not claim to have saved Romulus, Spock said that Romulus was destroyed.

And even in an imaginary version of the story where it is saved, how could both of them have saved it?

 

[Ithekro]

Or the Federation would take it over via diplomacy and giving aid to anti imperial dissidents.

Most likely both, with them conflicting.

 

[Romulan Loyalist]

I think that one thing, if not the only thing, that STO got fairly accurate is that both the Klingon Empire and Federation would rush into the vacuum left by a decapitated Romulan Star Empire..

The Republic as created by the dissidents sympathetic to the Federation is a lap dog to both the Klingons and Starfleet.. it essentially splits the Romulan people not directly in the Tal'Shiar or connected to the Empress between them.. and shocking! Imperial loyalists are the enemy!

And no.. Nero never claimed that Romulus was saved. He was operating completely on vengeance. He wanted to make Spock and the Federation suffer because it did not act fast enough to save Romulus.

That last part still puzzles me.. did they REALLY want to help the Romulans? I doubt it was high on the Federation to-do list. It's easy to drag your feet and claim you tried. But that's just colorful speculation of course.

 

[gamer1]

It felt like a very big thing to do compared to the payoff.

 

[Timo]

What are you talking about? Nero did not claim to have saved Romulus...

...His very words, shouted at the captured Pike's face, were "I prevented genocide!".

Whatever that means. Killing all Vulcans would stop any Vulcan from even attempting to save Romulus, so that's not a very good preventative. But Nero would have plenty of ways to prevent Romulus from dying. Say, Spock tried red matter but was late. Nero now has red matter, and definitely is early!

Spock said that Romulus was destroyed.

And then proceeded to initiate time travel with red matter black magic. Who knows what he intended. And who knows whether he succeeded...

And even in an imaginary version of the story where it is saved, how could both of them have saved it?

There'd be plenty of time for that. Two separate centuries, for one thing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

That last part still puzzles me.. did they REALLY want to help the Romulans? I doubt it was high on the Federation to-do list.

Why wouldn't it be? Throughout the 2370s there seemed to be a decrease in antagonism between the Federation and the Romulans, starting with the Romulans actually giving one of their cloaking devices to the Federation. And then a year later the Romulans actually attended a peace conference on Earth itself, though unfortunately it was bombed by a Founder. A couple years after that the Romulans ally with the Federation to fight the Dominion (even if they were manipulated into doing so) and at the end of Nemesis Riker says his first mission commanding the Titan is to go to Romulus to begin talks of a formal peace treaty between the Federation and the Romulans. If Romulus was under threat, rendering aid would be very high on the Federation to do list. If anything caused the Federation to drag their ass, it's that likely no one believed in a supernova that could pose a threat to the whole galaxy. Indeed, in the Countdown comic, that's the very reason the Romulan Senate dismisses this when Spock and Nero bring it to their attention.

 

[Nyotarules]

^Why is Nero involved in bringing it to Romulus attention, did he discover the Hobus?
BTW considering how small the galaxy is the Federation should have dealt with the issue much earlier. Romulus is just next door to Vulcan and Earth is one hour away from Vulcan (as per the tv shows and movies lol)

 

[Ithekro]

In the comic, yes, it is Nero's miners that discover that Hobus is going nova and when it is reported on Romulas only Spock listens with intent to do anything about it. Nero takes Spock to Vulcan, than head back home to be with his wife. The Vulcan Science Academy don't particularly want to help. Ambassador Picard pulls strings with some of his former Enterprise crew on Spock's behalf to get stuff moving. Specifically the Jellyfish and a starship escort to watching the area. The star goes supernova sooner than expected, and Spock has to rush with what he has towards Romulan space from Vulcan. Nero goes into a depression that becomes vengeance once a surviving Council member or Admiral takes him to a secret weapons stash to upgrade the mining ship into a Borg augmented warships to deal with the now opportunistic Klingon invasion, which Worf is part of is seems (or attempting to contain to just a relief mission while his kin want to take territory). Nero intercepts and destroys a large part of the Klingon forces, takes Worf captive. At this point Nero goes after Spock, but is delayed by USS Enterprise, who retake Worf, but the ship is damaged in the process, leaving Spock without escort anymore, as Nero gives chase. This ends with the events of Spock stopping the destruction and leaving the Prime plain of existence with Nero. The Enterprise arrives too late and they assume Spock died to save the galaxy (again).

 

[Timo]

...And thus what Spock tells Kirk in the movie is but a big fat lie, for no discernible reason.

And then a year later the Romulans actually attended a peace conference on Earth itself

...The last time they attended one, it was part of their plan to launch the ultimate UFP-Klingon war!

though unfortunately it was bombed by a Founder.

Or by Admiral Leyton, because it would have fitted his plans better than those of the Dominion.

A couple years after that the Romulans ally with the Federation to fight the

...Again echoes of ST6? Don't these people ever learn...?

and at the end of Nemesis Riker says his first mission commanding the Titan is to go to Romulus to begin talks of a formal peace treaty between the Federation and the Romulans.

There seems to be a constant need for those!

BTW considering how small the galaxy is the Federation should have dealt with the issue much earlier. Romulus is just next door to Vulcan and Earth is one hour away from Vulcan (as per the tv shows and movies lol)

The shorter the distance, the more excusable it is for Spock to be late in his little space scooter. If he calculates the moment of destruction wrong by hours or days, out of a travel time of days or weeks, it speaks worse of our favorite green-blooded hobgoblin than if he gets the moment wrong by minutes, out of a trip of hours.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Or by Admiral Leyton, because it would have fitted his plans better than those of the Dominion.

It makes perfect sense for the bomber to be an actual Founder (which was seen in the security footage) and Leyton just used the incident as a perfect springboard for his plans.

Perhaps even, the Founder was aware of Leyton's ambitions and specifically staged the bombing hoping it would set into motion a plan that would in essence feature the Federation turning on itself?

 

[Timo]

Bombing a conference where neutrals such as Tholians were present would not appear to benefit the Dominion at all, quite to the contrary. And if they knew about Leyton, why should they help him? He's gonna do his damage anyway - and if he fails in his coup, it's much better for the Dominion than if he succeeds (the doves win, the hawks get discredited, and then the Dominion eagles come and tear the doves to pieces).

Leyton faked the invisible wormhole intruders so that they began manifesting "a few days" after the bombing took place. Could he even have reached Bajor in that time? The Defiant, admittedly a slowish ship, goes full throttle to achieve that specific feat - what would have been Leyton's excuse for this sort of a quick in-and-out, and why doesn't Sisko mention this?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Bombing a conference where neutrals such as Tholians were present would not appear to benefit the Dominion at all, quite to the contrary.

It stalls the talks between the Federation and the Romulans, and the Tholians get pissed at what they consider poor security precautions on Starfleet's part.

And if they knew about Leyton, why should they help him?

A Starfleet officer staging a coup against the Federation government will seriously destabilise the Federation, regardless if he succeeds or fails, creating a weakened Federation. Similar reason to why they helped Tain launch an attack on their homeworld, the result was apparently sufficient enough that the Romulans no longer posed a threat to the Dominion (and perhaps led to them considering peace with the Federation) and crippled the Cardassia to the point the Obsidian Order was disbanded.

Leyton faked the invisible wormhole intruders so that they began manifesting "a few days" after the bombing took place. Could he even have reached Bajor in that time? The Defiant, admittedly a slowish ship, goes full throttle to achieve that specific feat - what would have been Leyton's excuse for this sort of a quick in-and-out, and why doesn't Sisko mention this?

That was explained in the episode, he got in contact with Lt. Arriaga who made the necessary arrangements.