Was blowing up Romulus a good idea?

[Set Harth]

...His very words, shouted at the captured Pike's face, were "I prevented genocide!".

Nero now has red matter, and definitely is early!

Oh, so you're talking about the Kelvin timeline as opposed to what happened in Prime 2387?

Nero "definitely is early", right? Meaning the Hobus star is not supposed to go nova for another 129 years. So surely we can say that Romulus is not dead? Why would there be any reason for Romulus to be dead in the Kirk era of the Kelvin timeline?

But Nero would have plenty of ways to prevent Romulus from dying.

Plenty of ways? Don't you mean one specific way? What are the other ways?

And then proceeded to initiate time travel with red matter black magic. Who knows what he intended.

We know what he intended.

And who knows whether he succeeded...

Succeeded in stopping the supernova? Yes.
Succeeded in saving the Prime timeline's Romulus? No.

There'd be plenty of time for that. Two separate centuries, for one thing.

This makes no sense at all. How can the Hobus star be destroyed twice? If someone destroys the star at one point in time, how is there a Hobus problem for someone else to deal with at another point in time?

 

[Nerys Myk]

And then proceeded to initiate time travel with red matter black magic. Who knows what he intended. And who knows whether he succeeded...

Time travel was an unknown side effect of Red Matter. Spock and Nero's crew are simply caught up in the black hole's "wake".

 

[F. King Daniel]

And then proceeded to initiate time travel with red matter black magic. Who knows what he intended. And who knows whether he succeeded...
Timo Saloniemi

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder if you've actually seen the movie, or are going from rumours circulating about the plot in 2008.

 

[Timo]

Oh, so you're talking about the Kelvin timeline as opposed to what happened in Prime 2387?

Is there a difference? Regardless of Nero's intervention, an Uhura was born in the Kelvin timeline just as in the Prime one. Should not Nero and his wife be born as well, provided Nero "prevents genocide" and stops the supernova from happening?

(Hilarity will of course ensue when the two Neros struggle for the poor lass, but I'm sure they can sort it out like the gentlemen they ain't.)

Nero "definitely is early", right? Meaning the Hobus star is not supposed to go nova for another 129 years. So surely we can say that Romulus is not dead? Why would there be any reason for Romulus to be dead in the Kirk era of the Kelvin timeline?

It's not the "not yet dead" part that is interesting, but the "prevention" that Nero claims to have practiced. With 129 years of advance warning, he could well have rendered the star harmless. Heck, for all we know, the star is the one we see at the beginning of the movie (because why should time travel involve travel through space on this occasion when it almost never does elsewhere in Trek?), and later just barely fail to see when Spock arrives - and Nero immediately puts to good use the red matter he gets from Spock.

Plenty of ways? Don't you mean one specific way? What are the other ways?

He can use Spock's method for preventing the supernova (assuming the method works before D-Day). He can find alternate methods, such as the one known to Federation science ever since TNG "Half a Life". He can arrange for Romulus to be relocated (either in the sense of everybody important and wealthy being flown to a safer location, or in the sense of some of that Trek supertech pushing/teleporting the planet itself to safety), or protected from the blast (a much simpler feat, even if not trivial).

What counts is that he has already achieved this by the time he kidnaps Pike. Or at least he believes so. Might be he has treated the nasty star with red matter. Might be he has left sealed orders or conferred with influential people. He has had 25 years to do so, after all.

We know what he intended.

Fuck, no. We don't even know if he achieved what he intended. First the "unthinkable" happens, suggesting he failed. But then he claims he still has "little time".

Succeeded in stopping the supernova? Yes.

He never says that much. He just prepares to set sail for home - whether in triumph or defeat, he doesn't tell.

Succeeded in saving the Prime timeline's Romulus? No.

He never says that much, either.

This makes no sense at all. How can the Hobus star be destroyed twice? If someone destroys the star at one point in time, how is there a Hobus problem for someone else to deal with at another point in time?

If this is not possible and the two timelines are one and the same, then Nero acting in the past will have saved his wife (see above). If Nero does not affect Prime by dealing with Kelvin (and saving Romulus there), then somebody else is free to mess with Prime (and save Romulus there).

So we need to take our pick. Points in time along a single timeline? Separate timelines? Doc Brown got it all wrong with authority in BTTF I and II, and only finally got it right in the last scene of III. Would the simple miner Nero have any chance of getting it right in his one and only movie?

Time travel was an unknown side effect of Red Matter. Spock and Nero's crew are simply caught up in the black hole's "wake".

Never established. For all we know, the black hole was an unwelcome side effect of the intended time-reversing use of red matter - it would make sense for Spock to use a "reversing potion" to stop the supernova, both in the scenario where it has already happened (and especially there!) and in the scenario where it is about to happen soon enough but the dying star has to be rejuvenated somehow to prevent it from happening in the lifetime of the Romulan Star Empire.

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder if you've actually seen the movie, or are going from rumours circulating about the plot in 2008.

Don't remember any relevant rumors. Was there perhaps an earlier plot treatise that actually made some sense?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

While I understand to an extent wanting to pretend a certain storyline in Trek went some way other than what played out on-screen, arguing that your headcanon swapout fanfic is the way events actually unfolded when that's contrary to what's depicted is... bizarre.

If you prefaced with, "I like to imagine..." it'd be different. But this argumentative stance is nuts.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Time travel was an unknown side effect of Red Matter. Spock and Nero's crew are simply caught up in the black hole's "wake".

The Red Matter itself did not cause the time travel. All it did was create an unstable wormhole.

The wormhole itself was the reason for the time travel, not the red matter which created it.

 

[Set Harth]

Is there a difference?

Yes, that's the whole premise of the Abrams/Lin films.

It's not the "not yet dead" part that is interesting, but the "prevention" that Nero claims to have practiced. With 129 years of advance warning, he could well have rendered the star harmless.

From context, it is arguable that his claim to have already done something was only in reference to the destruction of Vulcan. Not an indication that he had neutralized Hobus... something which the film shows no evidence of and which no one in the galaxy seems to be aware of. In fact, if Romulan subjects lived in the Hobus star's system, there would have realistically been no time to evacuate them in the timeframe provided by the film. As such there would have been no reason to act prematurely. If Nero intends to wipe out the Federation he would be able to deal with Hobus afterwards at his leisure. When you have 129 years to do something there is no pressure to do it immediately, especially if you have no reason to believe anyone will have the power to stop you in the present.

Heck, for all we know, the star is the one we see at the beginning of the movie

The one that's near the Klingon Neutral Zone border with the Federation, being approached by a Fed ship on patrol?

There are, in fact, three separate locations of note here: Nero's emergence point, Spock's emergence point, and their shared black hole entry point.

Spock emerges in the Romulan Neutral Zone. The Hobus star is presumably in Romulan space ( see STO ) given the inability to save Romulus in time. The point at which Nero and Spock enter the black hole would also presumably be in Romulan space.

(because why should time travel involve travel through space on this occasion when it almost never does elsewhere in Trek?)

We never saw time travel due to red-matter-induced black holes in Trek before. Since we've never seen red-matter-induced black holes before, we do not have contradictory information on their properties; it is fair for them to also act as wormholes in terms of displacement of physical location.

What counts is that he has already achieved this by the time he kidnaps Pike. Or at least he believes so.

Again, he has only destroyed Vulcan. Since he blames everyone else for the destruction of Romulus, according to his twisted logic this counts as having already achieved something, in terms of altering the course of the Kelvin timeline.

Might be he has treated the nasty star with red matter. Might be he has left sealed orders or conferred with influential people. He has had 25 years to do so, after all.

25 years with no red matter.

Fuck, no. We don't even know if he achieved what he intended.

We know he achieved a black hole. If you intend to suggest that is not enough to assume he stopped the supernova, Star Trek Online indicated that he achieved what he intended.

First the "unthinkable" happens, suggesting he failed. But then he claims he still has "little time".

The "unthinkable" happening only says that he failed to save a specific planet, while still having time indicates that this was not a failure of the overall goal.

He never says that much, either.

Yes, he does.

If this is not possible and the two timelines are one and the same

Seriously? The two timelines are NOT one and the same. Again, that is the obvious premise of the "reboot". Kirk had a different childhood, Vulcan went away, et cetera.

If Nero does not affect Prime by dealing with Kelvin (and saving Romulus there), then somebody else is free to mess with Prime (and save Romulus there).

We saw that Romulus was not saved in the Prime timeline. This was shown in the film. "Somebody else" only saves Prime Romulus in a nonexistent, imaginary version of the film after a rewrite. ( And your initial claims appeared to be about Spock and Nero, without reference to any somebody elses. )

So we need to take our pick. Points in time along a single timeline? Separate timelines?

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Red Matter itself did not cause the time travel. All it did was create an unstable wormhole.

The wormhole itself was the reason for the time travel, not the red matter which created it.

I think that's what I said. The Red Matter is supposed to create a normal black hole instead it create a wormhole into the past. Hence "unknown side effect"

 

[Ithekro]

We have seen black hole induced time travel that ends the starship up someplace it was not originally. USS Enterprise encountered an uncharted black star or some such thing in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and ended up in 1969 Earth's atmosphere.

 

[Rahul]

Eh. After Romulus was desttroyed the temporal agents came back in time and reversed the destruction, because the sudden explosion of the Hobus supernova was a side-effect of the temporal cold war and therefore not supposed to happen. As a result Romulus was not destroyed. But because Nero and Spock were already sent back in time in another universe (for which the temporal agents are not responsible for), they remained there with their memories of the sudden, unexpected and unlogical Hobus supernova and destruction of Romulus. As for the prime universe, that same destruction was reversed in the same way as Earth's assimilation by the Borg in First Contact before the E travelled back in time.

 

[Nyotarules]

Eh. After Romulus was desttroyed the temporal agents came back in time and reversed the destruction, because the sudden explosion of the Hobus supernova was a side-effect of the temporal cold war and therefore not supposed to happen. As a result Romulus was not destroyed. But because Nero and Spock were already sent back in time in another universe (for which the temporal agents are not responsible for), they remained there with their memories of the sudden, unexpected and unlogical Hobus supernova and destruction of Romulus. As for the prime universe, that same destruction was reversed in the same way as Earth's assimilation by the Borg in First Contact before the E travelled back in time.

LOL I Iike this idea. All we need to do now is wait for the temporal agents of the future Kelvin universe to go back in time and prevent the destruction of Vulcan or wait for Nero to emerge and blast his ship to infinity. This will save George Kirk, keep both Kirk boys out of trouble, save Vulcan, save Lady Amanda, prevent The Battle of Vulcan, prevent Chekov from being born 4 years early, make Bones eyes stay blue instead of turning brown, gives the future Mr Ben Sulu no chance of getting Hikaru for a husband, keep Uhura out of Spock's clutches. (Ok I like S/U just joking).

 

[Ithekro]

What and prevent Kirk's first Five Year mission from starting in 2260? Then a second Five Year mission by 2265 that somehow become the famous one?

 

[WebLurker]

Pretty much.

And if they tried to keep the new movies in the Prime Universe, as actual prequels to the TV shows, they were letting themselves in for years of fannish nitpicking, just like poor Enterprise.

("But where is Gary Mitchell? And what about Dr. Piper? And Janice Lester?" Etc.)

Better to just yank the "canon" Band-Aid off in fell one swoop rather than suffer lots of annoying little stings.

And the Kelvin timeline still has it's shares of continuity problems and fans pointing out nitpicks and other stuff. Frankly, I think Paramount and Abrams would've been better off just making the Kelvin movies a clean, hard reboot, like they do with each version of Transformers or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They could've literally done anything they wanted without the nitpicking and no stepping on older fans toes with implications of the original timeline being erased a la X-Men: Days of Future Past. While I'd still dislike the first two Kelvin movies since I don't enjoy them as movies period, a hard rebooted Star Trek would've made me, at least, have an easier time accepting the changes that the time travel accident couldn't explain.

(Ironically, while I disagree with Simon Pegg's belief that the time travel accident allows them to change anything about the Star Trek universe, I think Star Trek Beyond did the best with handling the alternate timeline stuff, making a movie clearly set in the new timeline, but keeping all its references to pre-timeline change elements accurate to the prime universe.)

 

[fireproof78]

I think a hard reboot would have been interesting, but I also like the fact that the two timelines inform each other in a way that is a little more fun. Sure, it messes with the continuity a bit, and you can nitpick it, but all of Star Trek is that way.

I think all three are good in their references to pre-timeline changes.

 

[WebLurker]

I think a hard reboot would have been interesting, but I also like the fact that the two timelines inform each other in a way that is a little more fun. Sure, it messes with the continuity a bit, and you can nitpick it, but all of Star Trek is that way.

I think all three are good in their references to pre-timeline changes.

Fair enough. I agree with you on the idea of parallel timeline stories being mutually interesting, even if I don't agree that the first two movies handled with well. (To be fair, most of the mistakes they have can be fudged in one way or another, but they came across to me more as "we don't care" and not "we're doing this for the sake of telling a better story.") Your mileage may vary.

 

[fireproof78]

Fair enough. I agree with you on the idea of parallel timeline stories being mutually interesting, even if I don't agree that the first two movies handled with well. (To be fair, most of the mistakes they have can be fudged in one way or another, but they came across to me more as "we don't care" and not "we're doing this for the sake of telling a better story.") Your mileage may vary.

Yes, for me, it never came across as "don't care" so much as "this is the story we're trying to tell." Blowing up of Romulus, for good or ill, sets the tone for the rest of the film, and, in many ways, sets the stakes, Nero's history, and the capability of red matter.

Does everything line up? No, it doesn't. But, I don't think it holds up any better or worse than prior Treks. But, as you say, mileage will vary.

 

[The Wormhole]

Honestly, the way the Abrams movies have handled being an alternate timeline that's connected to the Prime Universe just represents the rather schizophrenic approach to the Star Trek franchise that TPTB have always had. In this case the message seems to be "Star Trek needs a blank slate, throw off the shackles of fifty years worth of canon holding it down and to break away and stand on its own to bring in new blood, a fresh perspective, and improve everything. But don't worry this new Trek is still connected to the stuff from the previous fifty years which we will continue make reference to and through this, Leonard Nimoy will continue to make a couple of cameos until, well, you know."

 

[WebLurker]

Yes, for me, it never came across as "don't care" so much as "this is the story we're trying to tell." Blowing up of Romulus, for good or ill, sets the tone for the rest of the film, and, in many ways, sets the stakes, Nero's history, and the capability of red matter.

I wasn't actually talking about Romulus, since that's just a storytelling decision I didn't like, not a continuity error.

Does everything line up? No, it doesn't. But, I don't think it holds up any better or worse than prior Treks. But, as you say, mileage will vary.

I'd disagree with that. First of all, I don't recall any of the previous installments being so sloppy. Secondly, even when things didn't add up, it still felt like it was in the same reality, that everything belonged. I don't get that with the first two Kelvin movies. But it is all subjective.

Honestly, the way the Abrams movies have handled being an alternate timeline that's connected to the Prime Universe just represents the rather schizophrenic approach to the Star Trek franchise that TPTB have always had. In this case the message seems to be "Star Trek needs a blank slate, throw off the shackles of fifty years worth of canon holding it down and to break away and stand on its own to bring in new blood, a fresh perspective, and improve everything. But don't worry this new Trek is still connected to the stuff from the previous fifty years which we will continue make reference to and through this, Leonard Nimoy will continue to make a couple of cameos until, well, you know."

I agree with your statements overall and feel that this is the biggest downfall of the Kelvin movies. However, I do not agree with the bolded statement.

 

[fireproof78]

I wasn't actually talking about Romulus, since that's just a storytelling decision I didn't like, not a continuity error.



I'd disagree with that. First of all, I don't recall any of the previous installments being so sloppy. Secondly, even when things didn't add up, it still felt like it was in the same reality, that everything belonged. I don't get that with the first two Kelvin movies. But it is all subjective.

Again, I'm trying to follow were you are coming from and I don't get it-sorry. Maybe continuity errors don't bother me in the same way, though VOY certainly had its moments.

 

[The Wormhole]

I agree with your statements overall and feel that this is the biggest downfall of the Kelvin movies. However, I do not agree with the bolded statement.

Maybe "always" is an exaggeration, though there was definitely a degree of that schizophrenic attitude while Enterprise was in production, especially where the title of the show was concerned. Back when it started, "Star Trek" was of course left out of the title, the show was just Enterprise, the attitude being that the Star Trek name would scare away potential viewers who were afraid to step onto a show with decades of history and all the baggage associated with it. Then after two seasons of decreasing ratings, the decision was made in the third season to re-brand the show Star Trek: Enterprise, the attitude now being that people like the Star Trek name and are drawn to it and if Enterprise advertises that it's Star Trek, more people will watch it. There are times where the approach those in authority over the franchise have approached Star Trek makes them look clueless and like they don't know what exactly they want to do.