Paramount going ahead with ST4 according to Engage

[Malaika]

Review of Star Trek Beyond

http://trekmovie.com/2016/07/15/our-spoiler-free-review-of-star-trek-beyond/

''Uhura (Zoe Saldana), now with rank stripes (which we learned was thanks to a fan and Karl Urban’s urging to the costume department), has the most agency of any incarnation in the franchise. Thankfully gone is ‘Excuse me while I shush you Captain so I can argue with my boyfriend in the middle of a crisis’ and in her place is a competent officer. Yes, there is still plenty of interaction surrounding her relationship with Spock, but this time it’s tempered by good writing and film-making''.

this is from startrekmovie.com

that is a professional trek fan and critic that runs the main movie site for trek, the largest active site online. there is no bias there and even he said the romance in STID was badily written like most people said and beyond is a huge improvement.movie critics are not biased, they give their facts and honest reviews of movies.

(professional critic^ )

I find it amusing that you expect me to consider that site, of all the trek sites, the most important and 'unbiased' source of opinions about the reboot and Uhura.
The prevalent mindset in that site of late (after its original owner left it) seems to be one biased about the dudes and bromance, so I'd really take everything they say about the female characters and S/U with a grain of salt because, due to previous history of that site, I suspect some of those people would love a movie more in proportion with how much it tones down these aspects they don't like.
Someone who says '‘Excuse me while I shush you Captain so I can argue with my boyfriend in the middle of a crisis’ is a hint, for me, of that sexism and double standards towards Uhura that I often read in reboot haters or people in general who are biased about the dudes and perceive Uhura as a 'threat'. For me, comments like that one are problematic in context of a fandom that gives a free pass to dudes, or even praises them (e.g., McCoy), for doing much worse than what they criticize in Uhura in that infamous scene.

I find it suspect that someone hates a female character when she essentially has the same agency that the dudes have (star trek into darkness) but suddenly praises her when that same agency is removed and she's 'silent' about her relationship, spends most of the movie away from her boyfriend (and the protagonists), and most of screentime with kirk and spock is given to male characters instead. So you like Uhura only when she's not allowed to express her feelings for Spock, one way or another. Seems legit.
It makes me question someone's bias and possible agenda if they find Spock/Uhura and Uhura more likeable in Beyond than in the previous movies IF in the other movies they had judged them with sexist double standards or gave a hint that they considered the pair or Uhura some sort of threat for bromance or secondary male characters' importance (e.g., McCoy).

In either case, one article possibly concern trolling about Uhura isn't 90% of people like you claimed.
and for the sake of giving the benefit of the doubt, I actually googled (again) for reviews about this movie putting as key words Uhura and the word 'sidelined': the amount of reviews lamenting that she got blatantly sidelined and they didn't do enough with the S/U romance are a too consistent number to consider it a mere minority of people who are nitpicking.

I remember the critic of denofgeek website saying something similar about the romance. the critic was not a fan of it but liked it beyond.

...like I was saying..

 

[fireproof78]

Here's my biggest thing about the romance in Beyond. It basically took the character development that was showcased in Star Trek 09 and Star Trek Into Darkness, including Spock's dealing with PTSD, and sidelines it a bit for a more TOS interaction.

As much as I enjoy Beyond, the insistence upon reconnecting the TOS dynamic came at a cost of what had come before in the series. As stated above, Uhura was "sidelined" and her interactions with Krall don't change that fact.

It may make it seem more comfortable and familiar, but the dynamic was changed in Trek 09, while, at the same time, keeping the spirit of TOS alive, and allowing everyone a chance to shine. ST ID, instead of ignoring the consequences, embraced them and allowed the characters the opportunity to expand up their feelings and their relationships. Not just Spock/Uhura but Kirk and Bones, or Kirk and Chekov.

Some traces of those relationships are there, and the dynamics that are explored in Beyond are done well. But, at what cost? Sidelining Uhura and Spock's relationship by suggesting that they had broken up after they went through the loss of Vulcan and Captain Pike? What made their relationship more fragile?

With all the differences that were introduced in 09, the idea of Beyond changing the relationship dynamic for the sake of nostalgia is frustrating to me. I enjoyed TOS and thoroughly enjoyed the characters there. I enjoyed ST 09 because we got to see those characters in a different way. But, Beyond, despite feeling closer to TOS in dynamics, de-emphasized what had made Kelvin Universe so interesting in the first place for me.

 

[Malaika]

With all the differences that were introduced in 09, the idea of Beyond changing the relationship dynamic for the sake of nostalgia is frustrating to me. I enjoyed TOS and thoroughly enjoyed the characters there. I enjoyed ST 09 because we got to see those characters in a different way. But, Beyond, despite feeling closer to TOS in dynamics, de-emphasized what had made Kelvin Universe so interesting in the first place for me.

amen.

Beyond seems to be the movie liked the most by conservative trek fans who didn't like the first movies, coincidence? However, it also is the less successful of the 3 ... and I'll just stop here.
I can only add that, honestly, I don't know how much 'pandering' to certain fans is that great of an idea on the long run. Stid was already criticized in part for that and the team of Beyond seemed to think they did better..but I have my doubts. Stid had Khan and the death scene sure but Beyond was a tos fanfiction that tried to win reboot haters even more than stid did, with the difference that maybe JJ&co still kept some coherence by following what they had started and not take a vocal minority of haters and turn them into the majority and the only ones that matter.
Beyond almost seemed to want to alienate 'reboot fans' making it clear that it wasn't a sequel of the story they liked because trying to placate and please the haters is the most important thing. At least, that's how Lin&co came across to me in every of their interviews. It was all about trying to get the 'ok' of the old trek fans who didn't consider the reboot their trek(TM).

so again, I'm not sure I want Pegg&Jung&Lin back..but then again the other guys don't give me confidence either. So which one is better? the evil you know or the evil you don't know? who is worse? who is going to further sink the reboot ship and turn it even more into a tos fanfiction?

It's funny how some fans believe the reboot ruined their trek when really, you still have your tos DVDs and no one can truly change that story. The only ones who maybe have something to 'lose' here are the ones who like this trek and they are constantly told that they have to sacrifice what they like in the name of nostalgia.

 

[Smellmet]

amen.

Beyond seems to be the movie liked the most by conservative trek fans who didn't like the first movies, coincidence? However, it also is the less successful of the 3 ... and I'll just stop here.
I can only add that, honestly, I don't know how much 'pandering' to certain fans is that great of an idea on the long run. Stid was already criticized in part for that and the team of Beyond seemed to think they did better..but I have my doubts. Stid had Khan and the death scene sure but Beyond was a tos fanfiction that tried to win reboot haters even more than stid did, with the difference that maybe JJ&co still kept some coherence by following what they had started and not take a vocal minority of haters and turn them into the majority and the only ones that matter.
Beyond almost seemed to want to alienate 'reboot fans' making it clear that it wasn't a sequel of the story they liked because trying to placate and please the haters is the most important thing. At least, that's how Lin&co came across to me in every of their interviews. It was all about trying to get the 'ok' of the old trek fans who didn't consider the reboot their trek(TM).

so again, I'm not sure I want Pegg&Jung&Lin back..but then again the other guys don't give me confidence either. So which one is better? the evil you know or the evil you don't know? who is worse? who is going to further sink the reboot ship and turn it even more into a tos fanfiction?

It's funny how some fans believe the reboot ruined their trek when really, you still have your tos DVDs and no one can truly change that story. The only ones who maybe have something to 'lose' here are the ones who like this trek and they are constantly told that they have to sacrifice what they like in the name of nostalgia.

You make some good points, but they are damned if they do damned if they don't, at least it was an original story, with new characters, which is what a lot of people were complaining about after STID, especially on these boards and trekmovie.com. This is the TOS characters in an alternative timeline, how can it avoid coming across as 'TOS fanfiction'?'

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Beyond was a tos fanfiction that tried to win reboot haters even more than stid did, with the difference that maybe JJ&co still kept some coherence

Amazing! STID and coherence in the same sentence!

Sorry for the intrusion. It just caught me off guard. Carry on.

 

[wayne39]

Amazing! STID and coherence in the same sentence!

Sorry for the intrusion. It just caught me off guard. Carry on.

Amen to that. Into Darkness felt like a fan fiction written by college boys. look at the flaws of STID

Women in their undies unnecessarily
two people in a romance arguing like bickering teens .
kirk having a three way
villain giving swags as he beats up Klingons
acting out the classic trek scene of spock's death because it is so iconic.
action, action, action including tom cruise and Michael Bay Bad Boy styled chase down between the hero (spock) and villain (khan) and more action only this time it's a fight scene with blows.
STID is the least trek of the 3 films. Beyond was awesome.

 

[Malaika]

You make some good points, but they are damned if they do damned if they don't, at least it was an original story, with new characters, which is what a lot of people were complaining about after STID, especially on these boards and trekmovie.com. This is the TOS characters in an alternative timeline, how can it avoid coming across as 'TOS fanfiction'?'

the first movie did that. It's not impossible
heck, even the comic writer - with how limited the comics can be and the fact he himself fell in rehash territory at first - seems to be able to respect the integrity of this version of trek and its dynamics without forgetting he's a tos fan.

Amazing! STID and coherence in the same sentence!

Sorry for the intrusion. It just caught me off guard. Carry on.

coherence and integrity, but in either case I'm talking about the character dynamics and I dunno what's to find weird about my assertion. Even in terms of main themes, stid was fitting with the dark aspect of the first movie and, perhaps, its more contemporary themes. One can like it or not, but it wasn't a total departure from the direction they took in the first movie even if it too wasted its potential as an alternate reality (and yes, it was too much the kirk/spock show in a way that made their dynamic a tad forced ) Both sequels fail in this aspect, both pandered to haters in their own way.
Beyond is an easier and safer by tos standards movie for me. There was nothing particularly as gutsy in it as what they did in the first movie (yes,not even gay Sulu when you essentially removed the one scene where he talked about his husband thus making it more explicit and giving him a name, not to mention depth to Sulu's arc)
Stid was the new and different disguised behind the illusion of it being more like the old thing again to placate a side of the fandom (hence the pandering that ruined the movie for me and, ironically, is the stuff that gave it a bad reputation).
Beyond is the same old thing disguised behind the illusion of new and progressive (hence Jaylah, the rank on uhura's uniform, gay Sulu, make Uhura interact with the villain..the illusion of being more about the group..all stuff that distracts from seeing how, where it really counts, the leads are once again 3 white dudes and nuclear male dominated dynamics that are 50years old)

Even Jaylah, God forbid, is the 'fanboy safe' (and slash fangirl safe, lol) kind of new female character for one movie that the old tos movies had: she's safe because she doesn't interfere with the main trio and anything tos elitists deem as 'sacred and untouchable'. She got an invite for the dudes only party, but can't access to the main room. What JJ&co did with Uhura is different because not only they allowed a female character to be part of that 'big 3', they allowed her to a narrative that, before, was exclusive to the male characters only. And she is part of the main iconic crew (and important for representation) so she wasn't just a guest for one movie that the next writers have the option to ignore or not. But her upgraded role also was a side-effect of Spock's own upgraded role as someone who has a life outside of the confines of the old trio as the 'nerdy friend', or the devil to Mccoy's angel at Kirk's side. In fact, in the reboot he's as much a protagonist as Kirk is (which for some might be the natural evolution of what Nimoy Spock had became in pop culture).
Lin, frankly, didn't even seem to get this aspect ..this fundamental change. I read interviews by him where he talks about Spock as if he really, still, is that nerdy friend of hero who argues with the hero's other friend and each represent a side of Kirk. Thats not how this series portrayed Spock. That's not the role it was given to him..neither to Kirk. If you don't get that, like it seems Urban himself doesn't get, no wonder why people also don't realize why Mccoy's original role became quite redundant in the reboot..and changing things again just to give him more screentime wasn't the price I was willing to pay, and I still don't.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Glad to see that ST4 is a go! I know STB didn't meet expectations but at the same time, STB is Paramount's highest grossing film of the year. That signals to me that there was nothing wrong with STB, but there's something wrong with Paramount. I don't think they got the word out about any of their movies.

 

[fireproof78]

Amen to that. Into Darkness felt like a fan fiction written by college boys. look at the flaws of STID

Women in their undies unnecessarily
two people in a romance arguing like bickering teens .
kirk having a three way
villain giving swags as he beats up Klingons
acting out the classic trek scene of spock's death because it is so iconic.
action, action, action including tom cruise and Michael Bay Bad Boy styled chase down between the hero (spock) and villain (khan) and more action only this time it's a fight scene with blows.
STID is the least trek of the 3 films. Beyond was awesome.

None of which takes away from the story or the character development or is "anti-Trek". All three films are equally Trek. Also, I'll disagree that they were "bickering like teens" since I have heard and been a part of similar discussions and I'm 32.

A questions occurs to me, in light of this discussion, of what flavor nostalgia is acceptable in the Kelvin films? Because, the "Khan!" moment in ST ID is met with ridicule and shaming but Beyond's nostalgia is acceptable?

 

[Shalashaska]

If the TOS trio were all females and Uhura was a male, fans would still feel the same way. If they made a DS9 or VOY movie and Kira, Dax, Janeway or Seven were deemphasized to put more focus on Vic Fontaine or Jake Sisko or Harry Kim... fans would still feel the same way.

It's not Trekkies being misogynistic or sexist, I think a lot of people just prefer the dynamic between those three characters and don't want to see it messed with. That's still a problem in and of itself, I suppose, but sex doesn't really have a whole lot to do with it.

 

[RAMA]

Amen to that. Into Darkness felt like a fan fiction written by college boys. look at the flaws of STID

Women in their undies unnecessarily
two people in a romance arguing like bickering teens .
kirk having a three way
villain giving swags as he beats up Klingons
acting out the classic trek scene of spock's death because it is so iconic.
action, action, action including tom cruise and Michael Bay Bad Boy styled chase down between the hero (spock) and villain (khan) and more action only this time it's a fight scene with blows.
STID is the least trek of the 3 films. Beyond was awesome.

Undies: Certainly gratuitous as I've always said, but not especially so compared to general Hollywood.

Bickering? Not sure I understand this. People bicker, even adults..especially adults. Possibly you don't know many?

More relevantly, the scene with Spock and Uhura in the Mudd ship while seemingly odd when first seen, is actually a good one that ties in feelings from ST09 not only between the couple, but Spock and the death of his planet. We were left to wonder what was on Spock's mind in the volcano, and we got our answer. I like this scene better now than I did when I first saw it.

Kirk having a threeway: So?????

Swags: And? Montalban's Khan wasn't the only cocky bastard villain we've seen in Star Trek. Yawn.

STII scene: STID isn't a remake. It's amusing how those who dislike the movie bring this up as a major sin.There are about 5 minutes that parallel the movie with a few other nuggets thrown in interspersed here and there. What they tried to accomplish was based on the the new setting supplied by the Kelvin timeline...a similar, parallel but not identical divergent reality. As such, the "Ongoing" Kelvin comic books re-wrote original series episodes with the new crew, changing details but keeping much the same. STID kept a small amount of this parallel retelling, and it was clever, however, ultimately it falls flat and is the weakest 5 minutes of the movie, not because we don't care about Kirk or Spock, but the context for the relationship is still developing, and not full of 20 years of history.

Action: Yes, there IS more action in the Kelvin Universe movies. Yes, that's how movies are made today, Star Trek falls under the heading of action-adventure, as spelled out in Roddenberry's TOS Bible which I have posted. TOS and the movies were marketed as action movies, with the exception of STTMP, which focused on adventure. Take a look at the posters and trailers...exploding ships, streaking starships, bad guys aplenty. It's magnified but is the same basic way today.

Fisticuffs at the end: Remember Space Seed? Kirk and Khan came to blows. Remember STIII? Kirk and Kruge..blows. STGEN? You guessed it..blows. This time though, more spectacular than ever..on hovering ships? Fantastic.

You can't have it both ways.."least Trek" means nothing. You can't say it supposed to be a different universe but tried to mimic STII and still say it's not Trek. It IS Trek. That's the franchise now, but it also does what the franchise always has: Characters: in this case with more development than the Prime trek movies could even have imagine, with the petulant Kirk becoming the more mature commander of Beyond. In STID he gets taken down a peg..he rushes out for vengeance, and learns a lesson, both personal and professional, which he summarizes in one of Trek's best speeches at the end of STID. It's more topical than most Trek movies. It's political and the whole mission hinges on the wrtier's opinions of real life events. There are three separate scenes dealing with the morals of launching unseen weapons at the "enemy" without warning in undeclared military action. It comments on political and military duplicity as Admiral Marcus reveals plans reminiscent oi Bush and his lies before the 2003 gulf war. If anything, it's more relevant than any other trek movie: STIV had some warmed over commentary about Whales..the cold war was basically over when STVI commented on it. Roddenberry would have wholeheartedly approved of this, he was against the first Gulf War and STNG commented on that as well. He also hated most of the original movie scripts he saw including STII, III, V and VI!

 

[fireproof78]

Undies: Certainly gratuitous as I've always said, but not especially so compared to general Hollywood.

Bickering? Not sure I understand this. People bicker, even adults..especially adults. Possibly you don't know many?

More relevantly, the scene with Spock and Uhura in the Mudd ship while seemingly odd when first seen, is actually a good one that ties in feelings from ST09 not only between the couple, but Spock and the death of his planet. We were left to wonder what was on Spock's mind in the volcano, and we got our answer. I like this scene better now than I did when I first saw it.

Kirk having a threeway: So?????

Swags: And? Montalban's Khan wasn't the only cocky bastard villain we've seen in Star Trek. Yawn.

STII scene: STID isn't a remake. It's amusing how those who dislike the movie bring this up as a major sin.There are about 5 minutes that parallel the movie with a few other nuggets thrown in interspersed here and there. What they tried to accomplish was based on the the new setting supplied by the Kelvin timeline...a similar, parallel but not identical divergent reality. As such, the "Ongoing" Kelvin comic books re-wrote original series episodes with the new crew, changing details but keeping much the same. STID kept a small amount of this parallel retelling, and it was clever, however, ultimately it falls flat and is the weakest 5 minutes of the movie, not because we don't care about Kirk or Spock, but the context for the relationship is still developing, and not full of 20 years of history.

Action: Yes, there IS more action in the Kelvin Universe movies. Yes, that's how movies are made today, Star Trek falls under the heading of action-adventure, as spelled out in Roddenberry's TOS Bible which I have posted. TOS and the movies were marketed as action movies, with the exception of STTMP, which focused on adventure. Take a look at the posters and trailers...exploding ships, streaking starships, bad guys aplenty. It's magnified but is the same basic way today.

Fisticuffs at the end: Remember Space Seed? Kirk and Khan came to blows. Remember STIII? Kirk and Kruge..blows. STGEN? You guessed it..blows. This time though, more spectacular than ever..on hovering ships? Fantastic.

You can't have it both ways.."least Trek" means nothing. You can't say it supposed to be a different universe but tried to mimic STII and still say it's not Trek. It IS Trek. That's the franchise now, but it also does what the franchise always has: Characters: in this case with more development than the Prime trek movies could even have imagine, with the petulant Kirk becoming the more mature commander of Beyond. In STID he gets taken down a peg..he rushes out for vengeance, and learns a lesson, both personal and professional, which he summarizes in one of Trek's best speeches at the end of STID. It's more topical than most Trek movies. It's political and the whole mission hinges on the wrtier's opinions of real life events. There are three separate scenes dealing with the morals of launching unseen weapons at the "enemy" without warning in undeclared military action. It comments on political and military duplicity as Admiral Marcus reveals plans reminiscent oi Bush and his lies before the 2003 gulf war. If anything, it's more relevant than any other trek movie: STIV had some warmed over commentary about Whales..the cold war was basically over when STVI commented on it. Roddenberry would have wholeheartedly approved of this, he was against the first Gulf War and STNG commented on that as well. He also hated most of the original movie scripts he saw including STII, III, V and VI!

(applause)
Thank you for taking the time to point out the different facets that ST ID actually borrowed from Trek and was no different than the rest. Honestly, since the TOS films have been around for so long it gets taken for granted that they were just accepted, rather than opposed like they actually were.

If the TOS trio were all females and Uhura was a male, fans would still feel the same way. If they made a DS9 or VOY movie and Kira, Dax, Janeway or Seven were deemphasized to put more focus on Vic Fontaine or Jake Sisko or Harry Kim... fans would still feel the same way.

It's not Trekkies being misogynistic or sexist, I think a lot of people just prefer the dynamic between those three characters and don't want to see it messed with. That's still a problem in and of itself, I suppose, but sex doesn't really have a whole lot to do with it.

Here's the thing-it's not like the Kelvin films set up the big three like in TOS and just went with it. They set up a completely different dynamic and then went backwards to satisfy nostalgia. That, from a story point of view, undermines the character arcs that have previously established. Regardless of what fans want, that's the story that's being told, and it feels very much like pandering to go back to an old dynamic, while attempting to tell a new story.

ST 09 got praised for doing some thing new. ST ID got trashed for being a retread, even though, as @RAMA points out, it isn't really-First Contact and Nemesis were more so. Beyond gets praise for retreading classic relationships because "nostalgia." I see some dissonance there in wanting something new, but wanting more of the same.

ETA: Also, the idea that "that's just the way it was" is not acceptable rationale for keeping it that way. I'm not the most progressive person, but even I recognize that status quo is not a good enough reason to keep something the same way, especially after a new dynamic is introduced.

 

[Shalashaska]

Here's the thing-it's not like the Kelvin films set up the big three like in TOS and just went with it. They set up a completely different dynamic and then went backwards to satisfy nostalgia. That, from a story point of view, undermines the character arcs that have previously established. Regardless of what fans want, that's the story that's being told, and it feels very much like pandering to go back to an old dynamic, while attempting to tell a new story.

ST 09 got praised for doing some thing new. ST ID got trashed for being a retread, even though, as @RAMA points out, it isn't really-First Contact and Nemesis were more so. Beyond gets praise for retreading classic relationships because "nostalgia." I see some dissonance there in wanting something new, but wanting more of the same.

ETA: Also, the idea that "that's just the way it was" is not acceptable rationale for keeping it that way. I'm not the most progressive person, but even I recognize that status quo is not a good enough reason to keep something the same way, especially after a new dynamic is introduced.

My post is not arguing that at all, in fact, I said that itself "is a problem" too.

What I was pointing out is that it's not just a matter of "Trekkies are sexist pigs!". They want Kirk, Spock and Bones because that's how it was in TOS and people don't like new things (though there are valid reasons for disliking Uhura in the reboot films), not because they hate women intruding on their brodude bro things.

 

[Malaika]

Here's the thing-it's not like the Kelvin films set up the big three like in TOS and just went with it. They set up a completely different dynamic and then went backwards to satisfy nostalgia. That, from a story point of view, undermines the character arcs that have previously established. Regardless of what fans want, that's the story that's being told, and it feels very much like pandering to go back to an old dynamic, while attempting to tell a new story.

ST 09 got praised for doing some thing new. ST ID got trashed for being a retread, even though, as @RAMA points out, it isn't really-First Contact and Nemesis were more so. Beyond gets praise for retreading classic relationships because "nostalgia." I see some dissonance there in wanting something new, but wanting more of the same.

ETA: Also, the idea that "that's just the way it was" is not acceptable rationale for keeping it that way. I'm not the most progressive person, but even I recognize that status quo is not a good enough reason to keep something the same way, especially after a new dynamic is introduced.

pretty much this.
I have in mind what Orci once said over trekmovie while replying to people who complained about some things not being canon (like s/u and the trio idea with Uhura): It's canon now!
this trek is no less a story with its own narrative than tos was, so I can't see why it and its fans deserve less respect than tos. There is always so much talk about the old dynamics being a sacrosanct thing that fans love and we should, apparently, have in every trek iteration ever in the same exact way it was in the old thing. But the new dynamics are part of trek's canon too NOW, these are part of the story of THIS trek more than the old stuff..who says the fans of those don't deserve the same respect of the fans of the old dynamics? It's 7 years, the reboot wasn't made yesterday....and it does already have its own fanbase regardless tos.

And again, it's not like people are asking them to change the status quo and old dynamics to include Uhura: they already did that. So people simply ask to not lose the integrity of the story they got. Of the new canon they got. It's unreasonable to tell us we must accept the series going backwards. Had the reboot done the dynamics and characters like the old thing from the start, then we probably wouldn't even have this argument.

frankly, also, I think that Chris, Zach and Zoe are already considered the 'face' of this trek. Even with beyond trying to restore the old trio, the promotional posters and most of the sites still focus on those 3 or Jaylah. In part it's because of the popularity of the actors outside the US too, but it's not the only reason.
And yes, sure, a lot of people wanted more Mccoy..but the majority also seemed to embrace the reboot dynamic and praise it as a fresh change so I dunno where people take that everyone wanted them to go backwards in the name of nostalgia.

besides, trek is not the first nor the last remake/reboot that changed things from the original. Marvel does that all the time. Every iteration of Superman or Spiderman is like that. Not to even mention Batman.
Shows like Battlestar Galactica and Elementary changed the gender of one of the main characters from the original thing. and so on..
but you make reboots or remakes to change things a bit too, to create some unpredictability in an already written and done thing..and try to capture the interest even of the people who could care less about the original thing.

I feel that trek's reboot is still, for the most part, 'safe' for old fans compared to other reboots..and yet, we probably are the ones who complain the most.
and yes, there is a contradiction in people wanting new things but complaining it must be the same. In stid being criticized for having too many nods, all the while Beyond is praised for, essentially, being even worse in that regard.

 

[The Wormhole]

A questions occurs to me, in light of this discussion, of what flavor nostalgia is acceptable in the Kelvin films? Because, the "Khan!" moment in ST ID is met with ridicule and shaming but Beyond's nostalgia is acceptable?

Flat out remaking a scene with the only real relevant difference being the two characters involved have their roles reversed is not good nostalgia. Meanwhile, the KHAN! scream is STID just serves no purpose, and would not have been there had the movie not been trying so hard to masturbate itself to TWOK.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Flat out remaking a scene with the only real relevant difference being the two characters involved have their roles reversed is not good nostalgia. Meanwhile, the KHAN! scream is STID just serves no purpose, and would not have been there had the movie not been trying so hard to masturbate itself to TWOK.

Most of the film had very little in common with TWOK, so...no.

 

[fireproof78]

Flat out remaking a scene with the only real relevant difference being the two characters involved have their roles reversed is not good nostalgia. Meanwhile, the KHAN! scream is STID just serves no purpose, and would not have been there had the movie not been trying so hard to masturbate itself to TWOK.

I disagree. I think the scene could have worked, even without the dialog from TWOK because it serves Kirk's arc perfectly.

Most of the film had very little in common with TWOK, so...no.

Also, this point.

My post is not arguing that at all, in fact, I said that itself "is a problem" too.

What I was pointing out is that it's not just a matter of "Trekkies are sexist pigs!". They want Kirk, Spock and Bones because that's how it was in TOS and people don't like new things (though there are valid reasons for disliking Uhura in the reboot films), not because they hate women intruding on their brodude bro things.

Possibly.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Flat out remaking a scene with the only real relevant difference being the two characters involved have their roles reversed is not good nostalgia. Meanwhile, the KHAN! scream is STID just serves no purpose, and would not have been there had the movie not been trying so hard to masturbate itself to TWOK.

The "KHAN!" scene has grown on me. I liked Roberto Orci's explanation of it on Mission Log. He basically said that in TWOK, Spock's death scene marked the end of Spock and Kirk's friendship. But that the Kelvin Timeline Kirk death scene marked the beginning of their friendship, their first realization that they needed each other. With that in mind, I find the scene very effective.

I can totally see why it's divisive. I just fall on the positive side of that dividing line.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Jesus H. Cthulhu! Why can't there be discussions about ST4 on this board without them being hijacked for pages with waaaaay to long posts about the S/U relationship?

I mean, I like them as a pair not only but also because it is one of the most visible changes to Prime Trek (and the Kelvin Timeline need more of them while stll embracing what made TOS great), but come on! This is ridiculous

 

[The Wormhole]

Why can't there be discussions about ST4 on this board without them being hijacked for pages with waaaaay to long posts about the S/U relationship?

Probably because there's nothing to discuss about Trek (1)4 other than it'll probably have George Kirk in it.