B'elanna Torres pairing - Tom or Harry

[Logopolis]

This is a spin-off from an unrelated thread which delved into this topic to such an extent that it it was about to become the topic itself. Torres has always been my favourite character on Voyager and quite often i've always wondered about her romantic pairing. Most fans seems to think that the pairing we ended up with was the correct creative decision. I do agree but I am curious about Torres and Harry. Let's consider it.

Paris:
For obvious reasons, this works. Both in their own right have a rebellious streak in that they act contrarily to authority, have shady pasts and, in some way, have been a disappointment to family. They're basically like mimetic doubles of one another. Think Murdock and Elektra from Daredevil. My only thing with this pairing is that it didn't take Tom long to become a voice of reason for Torres. His cocky persona seemed to be eschewed the more involved he became with her. Of course, you could argue that it is a testament to their relationship because she brought out the best in him and vice versa. But, this is why I felt more drawn toward a Harry and Torres pairing as it would have been more convincing. Therefore...

Harry:
Right off the bat ('Caretaker') we see the sowing seeds of what could have been. When Tom and Torres first meet, they are butting heads and have a similar but different take on things. But, Harry already is almost like a calling to Torres because he is trying to calm her. In fact, Tom and Harry are an excellent example of why Harry and Torres could have worked. Remember, Tom spends considerable time trying to get Harry to relax, have fun and even be a little naughty. I think this could have worked brilliantly for a sexual chemistry between Harry and Torres because ,on the one hand, Harry is essentially the Mummy's boy while Torres is the go-getter. She's been in the line of fire, she's been trouble from a young her. Harry's innocence reminds her of a period of her life which virtually never existed. It speaks to her because of that long lost innocence. But, at the same time, she knows it is the person she deserves because that can also bring her a lot of happiness as it does familiarity. There is a greater sense of danger between her and Harry because, unlike Tom, Harry is vulnerable. But, so is Torres because Harry is almost like her softer human half, like in Faces.

What do we think?

 

[Sophie74656]

While Harry and B'Elanna are about the same age, I always felt that Harry was too "young" for B'Elanna. He was more like a younger brother to her

 

[Logopolis]

ahahah - that's only because she friend-zoned him.

 

[Tracy Trek]

In the first few episodes, I thought maybe they might have been the direction the writers were heading. But after a while, I felt like Harry became her best friend/surrogate kid brother. A similar relationship to what he had with Tom.

 

[Logopolis]

I definitely see parallels between Harry and Tom with Harry and Torres.

 

[stardream]

I remember there were hints of Torres and Kim in the first season but that was back when he hoped to see Libby again soon, Paris had a thing for Kes and was still a Riker wannabe. By the time of Dreadnought the writers were starting to notice the chemistry between Dawson and McNeil...and the character of Paris started to evolve. It made sense to me.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Having Harry as being a pansy and B'Elanna as being driven is too much different to expect it to work out. Opposites attract, it's true, but even B'Elanna, with that frigging forehead of hers, has standards. Needless to say, from the eyes down she's like ... a goddess. It would've been very strange had the show not had guys of all kinds trying to get next to her and wanting to kiss her up. Vorik, especially. Before his Pon Farr, even I had to accept that his being a logical Vulcan wasn't going to play a factor, at all, in his trying to chat her up. And she just takes it all in stride, B'Elanna does. I found it entertaining to watch her getting attention, Roxann's does 'cute' very well.

Even Tom's not a perfect fit for B'Elanna. He's been known to frustrate the hell out of her -- particularly with his thoughtlessness, at times. Not that he's doing it on purpose or to hurt her or anything. But he's got all of these interests and so on and kind of forgets there's only 24 hours in a day. She, on the other hand, especially after they were married, would take on any Life-or-Limb situation, without considering Tom, at all. Again, it doesn't seem to be "on purpose," it may even be her Klingon side which simply accepts - even invites - danger. But they were unquestionably in Love, both of them.

 

[Logopolis]

This sounds a little dark...but could The Chute been just as interesting by Torres replacing either Harry or Tom?

 

[Triskelion]

^That might have been interesting. Torres applying her Starfleet diplomacy and trying to control herself only to come to rely on her Klingon half to survive. It might have given her some character resolution. At least we got to see that in Faces, but it came at a price - Durst! GAH.

This thread poses an interesting quesiton. Now that it's brought up, it seems a more convenient choice than either Tom, Tuvok or Harry would have been Chakotay. Here we have a shared backstory; some unexpressed feelings of desire (what ep. was it when she hallucinated his affection in one of the earlier seasons, I think? That wasn't Naomi's Pitcher Plant one, was it)?

With Chakotay they have some good chemistry - as during the ep where she kept trying to off herself (name escapes me as do most of their abstract titles).

She looks up to Chakotay, and he depends on her and tries to be the voice of reason; but more importantly, he has earned her rebellious respect. OK maybe the Captain-Crewman thing would get in the way here but at least they speak the same language of principles beyond rules of authority.

Like Guinan's arrival nullifying Troi's role, Seven nullified B'Elanna as foil to the Captain. It's a pity that both she and Tom became dramatically domesticated in the later seasons, as the writers used the troupe as mere set elements to feature the top two stars of the show: (the left one and the right one).

If you study the closing credits you will see them listed: "The Year of Hell" and "Clementine".

Well - in my head canon....

 

[Logopolis]

^That might have been interesting. Torres applying her Starfleet diplomacy and trying to control herself only to come to rely on her Klingon half to survive. It might have given her some character resolution. At least we got to see that in Faces, but it came at a price - Durst! GAH.

Blood Fever is one of my favourite episodes, so there's nothing i'd change about it. But I kind of wonder if Chute would be closer to Blood if it had Torres given how it would throw her emotions.

With Chakotay they have some good chemistry - as during the ep where she kept trying to off herself (name escapes me as do most of their abstract titles).

She looks up to Chakotay, and he depends on her and tries to be the voice of reason; but more importantly, he has earned her rebellious respect. OK maybe the Captain-Crewman thing would get in the way here but at least they speak the same language of principles beyond rules of authority.

I never really saw a chemistry between her and Chakotay beyond friendship. In fact, I saw them more as brother and sister more than Torres and Harry. That's why the scene in that one episode (forgot the title) where Torres and Chakotay are under mind control and begin making out didn't work for me.

 

[Six of Twelve]

I think she would have eaten Harry alive and, for his part, I think the drama that is ubiquitous to her life would have gotten old to him quite quickly. And he'd have bored her to death.

Besides, Harry was slated to play the "unlucky in love" trope for the duration of the show. He fell in love with a hologram, the wrong twin, a Borg , a dead woman, etc . And he was the "red shirt" of any away team - the one the Species 8472 pilot clawed and infected, the ones the Borg kids injected, and so on. Harry was essentially the "Born to Lose" character, thus would have never been allowed to have a successful relationship with anyone.

 

[Logopolis]

Perhaps Harry would have left the relationship after giving up on his ability to change her.

 

[stardream]

when she hallucinated his affection in one of the earlier seasons,

That wasn't about a crush. That was about her 'needs'. There is a difference. Compare her story to those of everyone else. Did Kes have a hidden desire to see Tom burned and in pain? No, her desire was to be 'needed'. Did Tom have a secret desire for his dad to show up and yell at him? No, his need was to stand up to his father. B'Elanna had been abandoned by her father and estranged from her mother. Her 'need' was to love and be loved and her seeing Chakotay represented the one person she had any kind of emotional ties to, which in this case was friendship. He was an avatar.It could have been any man she had kind of connection to. This is from an interview by Roxanne Dawson and when you compare it to the other 'visions' it fits.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I think she would have eaten Harry alive and, for his part, I think the drama that is ubiquitous to her life would have gotten old to him quite quickly. And he'd have bored her to death.

I remember how he looked a bit wary of her temper when she was describing her argument with Tom in Displaced.

I think Tom was best for her, because he didn't want her to deny half of her heritage. He stood up to her when it was needed.

 

[Sophie74656]

Having Harry as being a pansy and B'Elanna as being driven is too much different to expect it to work out. Opposites attract, it's true, but even B'Elanna, with that frigging forehead of hers, has standards. Needless to say, from the eyes down she's like ... a goddess. It would've been very strange had the show not had guys of all kinds trying to get next to her and wanting to kiss her up. Vorik, especially. Before his Pon Farr, even I had to accept that his being a logical Vulcan wasn't going to play a factor, at all, in his trying to chat her up. And she just takes it all in stride, B'Elanna does. I found it entertaining to watch her getting attention, Roxann's does 'cute' very well.

Even Tom's not a perfect fit for B'Elanna. He's been known to frustrate the hell out of her -- particularly with his thoughtlessness, at times. Not that he's doing it on purpose or to hurt her or anything. But he's got all of these interests and so on and kind of forgets there's only 24 hours in a day. She, on the other hand, especially after they were married, would take on any Life-or-Limb situation, without considering Tom, at all. Again, it doesn't seem to be "on purpose," it may even be her Klingon side which simply accepts - even invites - danger. But they were unquestionably in Love, both of them.

I think every relationship has moments when your partner frustrates the hell out of you.

 

[Sophie74656]

That wasn't about a crush. That was about her 'needs'. There is a difference. Compare her story to those of everyone else. Did Kes have a hidden desire to see Tom burned and in pain? No, her desire was to be 'needed'. Did Tom have a secret desire for his dad to show up and yell at him? No, his need was to stand up to his father. B'Elanna had been abandoned by her father and estranged from her mother. Her 'need' was to love and be loved and her seeing Chakotay represented the one person she had any kind of emotional ties to, which in this case was friendship. He was an avatar.It could have been any man she had kind of connection to. This is from an interview by Roxanne Dawson and when you compare it to the other 'visions' it fits.

I know I've said this before, but I love how much she knows her character.

In regards to Harry...they might have been a good couple. With Tom and B'Elanna they are both dominant people. But with Harry, he is the sidekick. He would probably let her be dominant and step back in many situations. I think they would fight a lot less.

 

[Paradise City]

Torres would squash Kim like an egg.

If they took the direction they went with 'future' Kim in Timeless and maybe skipped a few years and portrayed a Voyager that had been travelling for decade plus, then you could tie them up. But the character would have to be seasoned and time-worn to put up with BT.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Well, even if I have nothing bad - or good - to say about Tom/B'Elena, I must admit that I didn't expect this couple at all *. In fact, as often in TV shows, the future pairing reflect eventually in first episodes through the meetings between characters, I rather expected Kathryn J/ Tom P or Kathryn J./Chakotay; B'Elena T/Chakotay. or B'Elena T/ Harry K. From all my suggestions, only Kathryn J./Chakotay took shape and lasted for awhile for being totally given up after "Hunters" in s4.

Anyway, to go back to a potential mate for B'Elena, I trully thought that they would go eventually with Chaotay or Harry K.... until "Before and After" (3x21) ), if I remember well, when Kes saw B'Elena T./Tom P. as a couple in her dreams the, back to the present time, we saw those two there looked at each other, I knew that they would end together.
-> what brought to this choice? I really don't know, because, I never thought of them as a potential couple. For me, they could have been good friends andor even kindred spirits, but lovers (then husband/spouse)...nope!

And why B'Elena/Harry never happened? Maybe I'm wrong but

a) I guess that, even if Star Trek wants to be very liberal in the choice of its issues and choice of its actors/actors, a couple made by a Klingon-Human hybrid and a Sino-American Human would have been a little too much difficult to be accepted by Trekkies -> I mean, just read the reactions/comments about Tuvok, because he is Black Vulcan; the kiss between 2 women, the age gap in a couple (what is acceptpable for Chakotay/Seven, isn't for Janeway/Paris anymore - or even Janeway/Seven if the rapport surrogate mother/daughter had not existed!)

b) as well neither Paris or Torres ‎didn't expect much from life both a personal and professional asset (together, they looked for a quiet and happy life where they could focus on their relationship as a couple and as parents. No promotion expected), as well Harry Kim seemed a very ambitious young man, who wanted a career and to peak quickly preferably, what implies a lot of sacrifices: carrier vs family life, who would have followed the other? => even if B'Elena/Harry could have been a cute idea, I don't think it could have last without possible resentments from 2 sides...

1) Now, was Torres/Paris a good choice of pairing? Yes and no.

- Yes because, the relationship clearly brought to each of them a stability that they clearly sought and both learnt, through the years, to be responsible and collected (-> calm, cool for B'Elena!). But maybe more important, they regained a certain self-esteem (the arrogance which 2 were showing was just a facade while both were wounded by their childhood) and shown to Janeway that the trust she had placed in them was not misplaced. Their redemption was total and they became better people/officers.
Plus, both are passionate and could move mountains if that means acting according their convictions & beliefs..., even if they will think twice before doing anything because of Miral!

- No because, this "stability" much sought, brought their couple to a routine, which made their characters, as well as a couple as individuals, BORING. Worst, I have the impression that from the moment where things got serious between them, Tom Paris and B'Elena Torres lost ‎which made their charm and why we enjoyed the characters at the beginning of their adventures.

2) Personal comments:

-> I'm glad we lost the angry & violent B'Elena who was ready to jump to the throat of everyone from s5 but in the same time, I was strongly disturbed by her newly "domesticated side" (you know,the good girlfriend - then later good spouse -, who lovingly cares of the man she loves until‎ death separates them), which was rather disconcerting because well, it's not B'Elena. Not the woman who has a fighting spirit, who loves her freedom
-> Tom, the sexy, pretty goofy, mischievous, ‎adventurous and smartest guy we've met in the first seasons has moved in someone as annoying as were Chakotay and Tuvok in s7 and that's saying! At the end, I missed the Tom Paris of first seasons!
-> love is important but friendship is too -> from the moment things became more serious between Torres & Paris, they left step by step Harry (for Tom) and Chakotay (for B'Elena) out, while these latter were their good friend, their confident and sometimes, the voice of reason. I understand why they had the impression of being abandoned and were ready to throw themselves into somebody's arms, ‎provided one is interested in them!

 

[Six of Twelve]

Well, even if I have nothing bad - or good - to say about Tom/B'Elena, I must admit that I didn't expect this couple at all *. In fact, as often in TV shows, the future pairing reflect eventually in first episodes through the meetings between characters, I rather expected Kathryn J/ Tom P or Kathryn J./Chakotay; B'Elena T/Chakotay. or B'Elena T/ Harry K. From all my suggestions, only Kathryn J./Chakotay took shape and lasted for awhile for being totally given up after "Hunters" in s4.

Anyway, to go back to a potential mate for B'Elena, I trully thought that they would go eventually with Chaotay or Harry K.... until "Before and After" (3x21) ), if I remember well, when Kes saw B'Elena T./Tom P. as a couple in her dreams the, back to the present time, we saw those two there looked at each other, I knew that they would end together.
-> what brought to this choice? I really don't know, because, I never thought of them as a potential couple. For me, they could have been good friends andor even kindred spirits, but lovers (then husband/spouse)...nope!

And why B'Elena/Harry never happened? Maybe I'm wrong but

a) I guess that, even if Star Trek wants to be very liberal in the choice of its issues and choice of its actors/actors, a couple made by a Klingon-Human hybrid and a Sino-American Human would have been a little too much difficult to be accepted by Trekkies -> I mean, just read the reactions/comments about Tuvok, because he is Black Vulcan; the kiss between 2 women, the age gap in a couple (what is acceptpable for Chakotay/Seven, isn't for Janeway/Paris anymore - or even Janeway/Seven if the rapport surrogate mother/daughter had not existed!)

b) as well neither Paris or Torres ‎didn't expect much from life both a personal and professional asset (together, they looked for a quiet and happy life where they could focus on their relationship as a couple and as parents. No promotion expected), as well Harry Kim seemed a very ambitious young man, who wanted a career and to peak quickly preferably, what implies a lot of sacrifices: carrier vs family life, who would have followed the other? => even if B'Elena/Harry could have been a cute idea, I don't think it could have last without possible resentments from 2 sides...

1) Now, was Torres/Paris a good choice of pairing? Yes and no.

- Yes because, the relationship clearly brought to each of them a stability that they clearly sought and both learnt, through the years, to be responsible and collected (-> calm, cool for B'Elena!). But maybe more important, they regained a certain self-esteem (the arrogance which 2 were showing was just a facade while both were wounded by their childhood) and shown to Janeway that the trust she had placed in them was not misplaced. Their redemption was total and they became better people/officers.
Plus, both are passionate and could move mountains if that means acting according their convictions & beliefs..., even if they will think twice before doing anything because of Miral!

- No because, this "stability" much sought, brought their couple to a routine, which made their characters, as well as a couple as individuals, BORING. Worst, I have the impression that from the moment where things got serious between them, Tom Paris and B'Elena Torres lost ‎which made their charm and why we enjoyed the characters at the beginning of their adventures.

2) Personal comments:

-> I'm glad we lost the angry & violent B'Elena who was ready to jump to the throat of everyone from s5 but in the same time, I was strongly disturbed by her newly "domesticated side" (you know,the good girlfriend - then later good spouse -, who lovingly cares of the man she loves until‎ death separates them), which was rather disconcerting because well, it's not B'Elena. Not the woman who has a fighting spirit, who loves her freedom
-> Tom, the sexy, pretty goofy, mischievous, ‎adventurous and smartest guy we've met in the first seasons has moved in someone as annoying as were Chakotay and Tuvok in s7 and that's saying! At the end, I missed the Tom Paris of first seasons!
-> love is important but friendship is too -> from the moment things became more serious between Torres & Paris, they left step by step Harry (for Tom) and Chakotay (for B'Elena) out, while these latter were their good friend, their confident and sometimes, the voice of reason. I understand why they had the impression of being abandoned and were ready to throw themselves into somebody's arms, ‎provided one is interested in them!

First of all, Harry is supposed to be Korean-American, not Chinese-American, as Kim is a Korean surname. Garrett Wang is Chinese-American, but Kim is not.

Secondly, matching him with Torres would not have been been at all controversial, as all his other attractions were with Caucasian actresses. And it's been done before in the past with no problems from racist audiences. a couple of examples include Klinger and the Korean Soon Lee on MASH, and Inspector Frank Luger and the Filipina Perlita on Barney Miller, both examples from 1982. And, of course, Star Trek's own O'Brien and Keiko Ishikawa. Both Keiko and Soon Lee, incidentally, were played by Rosalind Chao.

 

[Triskelion]

I was just watching State of Flux last night, the only way I remember the title, it's the one with Seska meeting Kazon in the cave and people trying to figure out if she or Carey is the traitor). There was an interest line in this episode: when Seska leaves Chakotay's quarters after the mushroom soup incident; she comes on to him and he says no, and she says a remark about there not being too many romantic choices on the ship - and that she's had her eye on "The young Harry Kim." Could you imagine Seska and Harry? She would eat him for breakfast and have him court martialed inside a week!

Unrelatedly, in Prime Factors - or as may actually be remembered, The One With The Lecherous Belgian Bun-Headed Man, Lt. Carey had a line: He's got a wife and two kids, and would do anything for them not to grow up without a father. Well, they did! Thanks Future Janeway! The relatives of Durst, Hogan, Ballard and dozens more are also fine I'm sure!