Jaylah and Krall Prime Universe
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
There's that blasted tie-in comic to the 2009 film that claims that Nero got his mining rig upgraded with Borg tech from Tal'Shiar vaults so that he could better avenge Romulus. That's completely impossible, though: the movie establishes that Nero was sucked into the wormhole basically minutes after the loss of the planet, that is, he intercepted the Vulcan before he could set sail for home and then chased Spock until both fell into the hole that was right next to Romulus.
Then there's the speculation that the hero ship was somehow developed in response to the event where the Kelvin encountered the Narada. There's no sign of that, though: the Narada encounter is a completely obscure bit of history and Chris Pike, the designated skipper of the new starship and an expert on the Narada, has no idea what Kirk is talking about until that's spelled out for him. Surely he would know about direct design influence on his very ship if there were any. (Of course, the new ship fares no better than the Kelvin did against the Romulan rig - that is, she, too, survives Nero's first attack just fine, and is ready for a counterattack, until the plot takes a different twist.)
Timo Saloniemi
Then there's the speculation that the hero ship was somehow developed in response to the event where the Kelvin encountered the Narada. There's no sign of that, though: the Narada encounter is a completely obscure bit of history and Chris Pike, the designated skipper of the new starship and an expert on the Narada, has no idea what Kirk is talking about until that's spelled out for him. Surely he would know about direct design influence on his very ship if there were any. (Of course, the new ship fares no better than the Kelvin did against the Romulan rig - that is, she, too, survives Nero's first attack just fine, and is ready for a counterattack, until the plot takes a different twist.)
Timo Saloniemi
Holographic history designed by a spaced out Tellairite tech engineer smoking Vulcan meditation herbs...yeah so it must be all true.
The idea that the holodeck footage of TATV is somehow falsified for whatever reason makes no sense.. The only aspect of it that is not going to be historical, is where Riker takes the place of the chef - the rest is mentioned as historically accurate.. Otherwise, what benefit would it offer Riker in the Pegasus conundrum (Although the actual episode itself is much better without thinking of TATV - which I cannot do now that the mistake was already made)
Isn't it already established that no one involved with creating the Kelvin debacle had no prior interest in Star Trek - as in deep knowledge of the canon, storylines, etc? The idea that it would be 'by-the-timeline' accurate is a little funny - if not hysterical. I mean the tech on the ship (except for the boiler room engineering) was more advanced than the USS Pasteur, or even the Timeship Relativity by far.. I mean, I know it is 2016 - and TOS era tech looks down right hilarious watching it now... But I digress.
I am still getting a kick out of there being a Borg-tech enhanced ship involved in this at any level... The Borg do not technically encounter Earth till Q introduces them... (The time travel incident of ST:FC doesn't count - as the damage was repaired yadda yadda)
SF in prime circa the same era would have handled Krall - and things would have been similar.. Perhaps it would not have been the Enterprise - maybe a different ship.. I think this has been rehashed fairly well.. The events in Kelvin v Prime aren't much different, except of course Kahn is now forever altered beyond recognition, Vulcans are all but extinct, and the Klingons seem to have an affinity for head-ridge piercing..
They still need to develop the ST universe... The Moon colonies, enormous space infrastructure that should be in orbit of earth - ETC.. Still has never fully materialized on screen... Instead the tinker with the timeline and blow the whole thing up.. I find it a little odd that the Romulans are all but obliterated in Prime, and Vulcans in Kelvin... These people don't like pointy ears much do they?
Isn't it already established that no one involved with creating the Kelvin debacle had no prior interest in Star Trek - as in deep knowledge of the canon, storylines, etc? The idea that it would be 'by-the-timeline' accurate is a little funny - if not hysterical. I mean the tech on the ship (except for the boiler room engineering) was more advanced than the USS Pasteur, or even the Timeship Relativity by far.. I mean, I know it is 2016 - and TOS era tech looks down right hilarious watching it now... But I digress.
I am still getting a kick out of there being a Borg-tech enhanced ship involved in this at any level... The Borg do not technically encounter Earth till Q introduces them... (The time travel incident of ST:FC doesn't count - as the damage was repaired yadda yadda)
SF in prime circa the same era would have handled Krall - and things would have been similar.. Perhaps it would not have been the Enterprise - maybe a different ship.. I think this has been rehashed fairly well.. The events in Kelvin v Prime aren't much different, except of course Kahn is now forever altered beyond recognition, Vulcans are all but extinct, and the Klingons seem to have an affinity for head-ridge piercing..
They still need to develop the ST universe... The Moon colonies, enormous space infrastructure that should be in orbit of earth - ETC.. Still has never fully materialized on screen... Instead the tinker with the timeline and blow the whole thing up.. I find it a little odd that the Romulans are all but obliterated in Prime, and Vulcans in Kelvin... These people don't like pointy ears much do they?
One might consider that "historical" entertainment today specifically strives not to be particularly accurate - it's just the mood that counts, and even that is generally altered to better fit the tastes of the contemporary consumer. "Historic holoprogram" is what Riker calls his simulation. Might be "footage" as you say, might instead be something "inspired by true events", as the popular catchphrase today goes.
(Grammatically, wouldn't "historic holoprogram" actually mean a holoprogram that in itself made history? That is, a great movie? That'd make it about as realistic as Titanic at most.)
Well, that remains a mystery no matter what. Supposedly, Deanna Troi knew, and supposedly, it worked the way she intended. Better that Riker himself have no real idea, I guess.
That's generally true of all Star Trek, and typically for the better...
...Yet VOY pretty much establishes that the Borg are everywhere anyway, and always have been. They're the Bigfoot of the galaxy, ancient and shy until they come out and eat you. Basically everybody will have an opportunity to study Borg technology up close, then, often from the inside. Few manage to benefit from it, though!
The thing is, Trek can also be different if it wants to. There's no "need" to have realistic and cool-looking technologies like cargo shuttles or beanstalk elevators because Trek has opted to have transporters instead. There's no "need" for domed colonies on Mars, because Trek has warp drive that makes it possible to do the more attractive thing and build little log cabins on Earthlike planets hundreds of lightyears away. There's very little "should" in Trek, because by the mid-21st century, Trek mankind already has access to truly magical technologies that transcend all our expectations, and can, say, reenact the 1960s in spaaaaaace! if it really wants to. And apparently it does!
Good, er, point. Perhaps that's what happens to insanely warlike species eventually anyway?
Timo Saloniemi
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Not quite. Abrams himself is a Star Wars fan who never had more than a passing interest in Trek before becoming involved with it, but Orci and Lindelof are uberfans and consider themselves experts.
In the Countdown comics, Nero enhances his ship with Borg technology being held at a secret Romulan research outpost in the 24th century shortly after the destruction of Romulus. What's the issue?
Considering that the writers dug deeply into the well of obscure Trek lore, including TAS and the litverse, in developing the background of the Kelvinverse, I would respond to that with a resounding "no."
Not that being a prior fan has anything remotely at all whatsoever to do with developing a new movie... cf Nick Meyer, Harve Bennett, and TWOK.
Kor
Spock's description of the events is the issue. "I had little time. I had to extract the red matter, and shoot it into the supernova. As I began my return trip, I was intercepted. He called himself Nero. Last of the Romulan Empire. In my attempt to escape, both of us were pulled into the black hole."
First, the shooting of the red matter into the supernova happens close to Romulus as per the visuals. Ignoring those, Spock would set out for his return ship very soon after the fact, there being zero reason to linger. But he doesn't get far before Nero shows up - as their fight ends with them falling into "the" black hole, which is the one Spock created at the point from which he set out to return. Furthermore, Nero saw with his own eyes the destruction of Romulus, so he was there, too.
No matter whether Spock was being literal or slightly inaccurate (and barring the possibility that he was flat out lying about key facts), there is no time in the movie storyline for Nero's ship to receive Borg technology from any source. And there is no way this simple miner would have been given Borg technology before the big kaboom. Finally, there's no indication of any sort of Borg technology (say, the ability to self-repair or assimilate) present on the mining rig anyway...
Countdown takes place in a different universe altogether, one only distantly related to the 2009 movie - as is par for the course for comics and other tie-ins.
Consider the poor horse beaten so hard now that it goes out through the other side and comes back to life again. And sorry about the interlude. Again.
Timo Saloniemi
Without the construction of the Yorktown, I can't see Krall being motivated to strike out at an encroaching Federation until too late (after Jaylah escaped and the Federation was notified of his presence) and therefore he most likely would have tangled with a different ship and crew.
Or the Prime USS Franklin was lost with everyone killed. There is no reason for everything to be the same prior to 2258 since Prime Kirk considered himself a soldier and NuScotty does not then this JJverse has a NASA like Starfleet compared to the TOS verse
Well, the assumption is that EVERYTHING that happened prior to the Kelvin meeting the Narada was part of the "prime" timeline so both the Kelvin and the Prime timelines would have exactly the same "history" up to the moment when the Narada popped up on the sensor screens.
At best we could argue that the wormhole in fact took Krall not just through space but also forward in time in both universes (an idea not outright contradicted by the movie, although clearly not the intention of the writers), beyond 2233 - so his exit from the wormhole could happen in different ways in the two different universes.
Or then we could claim that minor fluctuations in wormholes would result in multiple different outcomes even within the confines of a single timeline wishy-washy-timey-wimey-handwavey-yadda-yadda. Been there, postulated that, won't buy it for a minute myself.
Timo Saloniemi
Or then we could claim that minor fluctuations in wormholes would result in multiple different outcomes even within the confines of a single timeline wishy-washy-timey-wimey-handwavey-yadda-yadda. Been there, postulated that, won't buy it for a minute myself.
Timo Saloniemi
Time travel gives me a headache - but great thread @King Daniel Beyond
The Prime assumption is that Kirk was born in Iowa, the Kelvin was near the Klingon Neutral Zone it was not on its way to Earth or anywhere near Earth, the timeline was already different before Nero showed up
That's always been my assumption as well.
Never mind what Simon Pegg says. He's not writing ST4, is he? So it really doesn't matter what he thinks.
As interesting as all that is, it doesn't answer my question. Romulan Loyalist complained about Narada having Borg technology because no one in the Alpha Quadrant encountered the Borg until Q introduced the Enterprise to the Collective. But as Narada was enhanced twenty-two years after the events of Q Who, what is the issue with Narada having Borg tech?
Simon Pegg was actually quoting the new official Star Trek Encyclopedia when he said that. Meaning someone with some oversight powers also holds this belief.
The "issue" is that the thing with the Narada being upgraded with Borg technology only happened in the comics.
I'm not saying this is impossible, as such - hell, does the Narada LOOK like a simple mining vessel?
- but you can't think "Borg" just from the film itself.The Encyclopedia carries as much weight as the aforementioned comics do.
In the recent Federation: 150 Years and The Autobiography of James T. Kirk, both set in the Prime universe, have Kirk born in space on the USS Kelvin before living in Iowa.
So they retcon his birthplace to fit the Kelvinverse
Or the stress of the incident meant the birth was premature and had it not happened he would have been born in Iowa?
