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Actually, I quite like . . . (Voyager edition)

KelisThePoet

Commander
Red Shirt
Let's get some positivity going among Voyager fans, even with regard to those aspects of the series routinely criticized around Star Trek fan communities.

Here's a list of seemingly unpopular things about Voyager that I like:

Neelix
the Borg kids
episodic storytelling
the end of "Year of Hell"
holodeck stories
Voyager's treatment of the Q Continuum
Voyager's treatment of the Ferengi
"Endgame"
 
Captain Kathryn Janeway
Chakotay
Kes
time travel
the reset button
Threshold (actually love it)
Tuvix
the Kazon
the technobabble
the idea of the Maquis blending with Starfleet at the beginning of the show
the fact that it never turned into a dark "survival" show
the "overuse" of the Borg
etc.

Let me know if we can talk here about things that are generally not criticized or get a lot less criticism. I could surely compile a list of 100 items at least ...
 
Neelix grew on me, I didn't like him at first, the whiny moany jealous little creature he was originally portrayed as was pretty irritating.
Once the jealousy storyline with Paris was resolved Neelix improved massively.

There's a thread on the DS9 forum about Vic Fontaine, I always felt Neelix grew into a similar sort of character. He was someone the majority of the crew turned to for support/guidance,/ a moan to/ advice. If someone on Voyager was depressed about something you can be sure they'd be in the mess hall with Neelix before too long.

His farewell scene with Tuvok in Homestead is amongst my favourite scenes in any Trek series ever.
 
There's a thread on the DS9 forum about Vic Fontaine, I always felt Neelix grew into a similar sort of character. He was someone the majority of the crew turned to for support/guidance,/ a moan to/ advice. If someone on Voyager was depressed about something you can be sure they'd be in the mess hall with Neelix before too long.
I think so too, they went to Neelix when they wanted to get cheered up, talk about their problems, etc. I know some people on other forums have described him as the Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek, but I liked him. He felt like part of their strange little family, maybe we can call him the eccentric uncle.
 
Cathexis
Microcosm
Demon
Course Oblivion
The warm happy feeling the show had-I'm sorry I don't like dreary and dark and depressing day in day out-that's not Star Trek that's the walking dead or Warhammer 40k
The episodic format-with a serialized show it puts the onus on the audience to keep educated and focused. Episodic has to pull the audience in without necessarily large backstory.
Continuity-seriously? Voyager references previous episodes fairly often, references TOS, TNG and first contact, mentions DS9 and event the occupation of Bajor.
Character development-Janeway however inconsistent becomes more and more cynical as time passes I think that's demonstrated fairly by season 7 she won't play nice when you get in her way. Kim-okay not a good actor did have a moment in the sun with Timeless. Seven and the Doctor both have arcs, Tuvok is already 200 years old-his character really can't progress much farther.
Neelix-is respected even by Tuvok at his departure shows his competence
Kes-sad story, what can we say.
Chakotay-okay one or two standout eps, Kim is actually a better character how could he go precisely?
Tom and B'lanna romance arc-that isn't cringy like Neelix and Kes or excuse me I want to projectile vomit Kira and Odo? Really that's a good romance? I dunno DS9 fans it really doesn't seem like it.
Other than that tertiary characters-it's difficult you know paying guest actors, and all that studio constraints and all give em a break.



On DS9 would it have been to much to ask Jadzia off handedly tell Sisko hey they made contact with Janeway.

The voyager episodes I'm not a fan of-threshold, Spirit Folk, some of the earlier episodes. Seasons 4 and 5 were the best, seasons 2 and 3 had some mediocre, some good, a few terrible, and an occasional standout. Season 1-good mostly, occasionally bad hardly like TNG season1.
Seasons 6 and 7 hit or miss mostly hit but I can't think of any particularly terrible episodes from the last two seasons.

Voyager had heart, it had comedy, and yes it had some good drama and character focus as well. I think it deserves credit for those things.

Some say the show was a failure-I ask if it was a failure why wasn't it cancelled like I dunno Enterprise or TOS even.

Seven of Nine sex appeal-okay what's wrong with some fan service now and then and the character and actress showed yeah you can has it both ways-sexy babe and developed character. Yes her being brought into the show probably saved it. Yet I might ask did not the bringing in Worf on DS9 have a similar effect? Talk about some double standards.

DS9 succeeded in deconstructing the utopia trek dreamed of. Yes it was a good show but to say every episode was a masterpiece or that the acting was perfect-Avery Brooks and Terry Falwell no that's not good acting. To say that is truly to be delusional because DS9 wasn't pumping out The Visitor or Duets every week and quite honestly to say that it was is dishonest.

Voyager carrying over from the beginning of the previous paragraph had a quite a few episodes-Demon and thaw in particular which stand out to me as bearing the torch and spirit of TOS. It also showed carried the heart of TNG and did so well.

The Borg were not emasculated in Voyager nor was Voyager somehow dependent on TNG it's whole existence.

All in all who agrees with me?
 
All in all who agrees with me?
I agree with everything. Except for the part about Tuvok being 200 years old, but I'll get to that in a minute.*

I especially liked where you said Voyager had heart and comedy. And I also feel like sometimes Voyager gets criticized for things that TNG and DS9 gets away with. Is it true that Michael Dorn was brought in to improve DS9's ratings?

*About Tuvok's age, wasn't there an episode where Janeway wishes him a happy birthday, has him blowing out a candle. Then she says something about him being in triple digits now. Meaning he was just entering his 100th year. That did happen, didn't it? I'm not sure, but I think it might be the episode which shall not be named in season 6, cough...Fury...cough.
 
Q and the Grey quite tickles my fancy. When Ms. Q sees Q chatting up Janeway, she hisses at The Good Captain, "... stay away from him." That's the moment where I know it was all worth it.
 
I liked Alice. I agree that it should have had another type of B-plot or even some kind of comic relief because it was a very heavy episode, but I liked the idea.

I LIKE all the characters on Voyager and I'm one of the ones who found new appreciation for them after the Byer novels. She's done a wonderful job developing Harry and Chakotay.

I'm also one of the ones who loves both Voyager and DS9. I keep referring DS9 as a good gourmet meal and Voyager as a dessert. I have watched Voyager so much that I'm going to have to give it a rest and now I'm doing a DS9 mini-marathon of just Doctor Bashir episodes. He's another one I've found greater appreciation for because of the books.
 
I liked Alice. I agree that it should have had another type of B-plot or even some kind of comic relief because it was a very heavy episode, but I liked the idea.

I LIKE all the characters on Voyager and I'm one of the ones who found new appreciation for them after the Byer novels. She's done a wonderful job developing Harry and Chakotay.

I'm also one of the ones who loves both Voyager and DS9. I keep referring DS9 as a good gourmet meal and Voyager as a dessert. I have watched Voyager so much that I'm going to have to give it a rest and now I'm doing a DS9 mini-marathon of just Doctor Bashir episodes. He's another one I've found greater appreciation for because of the books.
I like Alice also, i just wish there was a little more about Alice herself. What was she, where as she trying to go....
 
the fact that it never turned into a dark "survival" show
Amen.
Let me know if we can talk here about things that are generally not criticized or get a lot less criticism. I could surely compile a list of 100 items at least ...
Well, it's impossible to create an objective standard of what counts as lots of criticism. That's why I fudged the premise of the initial post with imprecise phrases like "routinely criticized" and "seemingly unpopular." Case in point, I didn't think of Captain Janeway as the object of disproportionate criticism when I started the thread, but after seeing her in your list, I stopped to reflect, and she does probably get too much criticism from some quarters (although any criticism is too much in my book, when it comes to the greatest Starfleet captain of her generation).
The episodic format-with a serialized show it puts the onus on the audience to keep educated and focused. Episodic has to pull the audience in without necessarily large backstory.
Yes. Far too often, writers use long, soap-operatic plots with melodramatic cliff hangers to artificially compel audience engagement when there isn't enough in the material itself of any given episode with which audiences would willingly engage.
I'm also one of the ones who loves both Voyager and DS9.
I also am a fan of both Voyager and Deep Space Nine. Moreover, while both shows are unique, I think the differences between them are often exaggerated by Trekkies. I think they have as much in common with each other, if not more, than either has with The Next Generation (a show I don't like much, though it's Star Trek, so I have to love it).
 
In terms of Janeway i have seen her get much more criticisms than other captains for doing similar things. I've seen a lot of criticism for her persuit of captain Ransom but it's very similar to Sisko's persuit of Michael Eddington yet he doesn't get nearly as much criticism
 
I think Janeway's pursuit of Ransom is wrong, but the writers intended it to be so. And I think they did a good job of putting ethical pressure on Janeway's character without destroying it, because while she makes bad choices, they're reasonably motivated and consistent with her character, and there are lines she doesn't cross. Often on television these days, writers try for ethical complexity by making a good character's actions unpredictably despicable. "Equinox," like "A Private Little War" before it, shows a more nuanced way of letting the heroes be wrong.

As for Eddington, "For the Uniform" is an episode that comes across to me as an out of control mess. Sisko is presented neither as misguided nor as the cynical antihero so beloved on current television. The poisoning of an entire planet is treated so casually by the writers that I feel like they're not taking the premise seriously, rather than making a comment one way or the other on the morality of it.
 
Neelix grew on me, I didn't like him at first, the whiny moany jealous little creature he was originally portrayed as was pretty irritating.
Once the jealousy storyline with Paris was resolved Neelix improved massively.

There's a thread on the DS9 forum about Vic Fontaine, I always felt Neelix grew into a similar sort of character. He was someone the majority of the crew turned to for support/guidance,/ a moan to/ advice. If someone on Voyager was depressed about something you can be sure they'd be in the mess hall with Neelix before too long.

His farewell scene with Tuvok in Homestead is amongst my favourite scenes in any Trek series ever.
I love some of Neelix's earliest moments--"I've heard this story thousands of times. Well, hundreds of times. Maybe fifty."--"You federations are obviously an advanced culture"--"I'm the senior Talaxian on board. Kes is the senior Ocampa"--but I could do without the jealousy storyline of Season 2 (Kes isn't worth being jealous over, anyway).

I've always enjoyed Neelix's humor, but I think he's a tragic character at heart, precisely because everyone comes to him for help, but he doesn't really have anyone to go to. He gets along fine with the crew, but he doesn't have one particularly close friend among them. Kes abandons him, though he does nothing to deserve it. Tuvok actually does value Neelix's friendship, but in such a Vulcan way that it often doesn't help. Everyone appreciates him (even Seven, as Chakotay points out in "Mortal Coil"), but who's reliably there for him?

I'd never thought of Neelix in connection with Vic Fontaine, but there's actually a similar loneliness to both characters--amiable outsiders with more admirers than friends.
 
Here are the ten most important reasons why I love Voyager (in no particular order):

1. Captain Kathryn Janeway. Best Captain ever, can't imagine a better one. In fact, I can hardly imagine a better character - to me she was so good. I could always relate to her decisions, I also always agreed with them, I never saw that one decision contradicted her next one - in fact, I thought she was excellent when it came to decision-making. The only exception is ENDGAME but since she was so good in the previous 170 episodes that I forgave her for the last two. She is also a human being, she is allowed to make mistakes. All in all, she has become a role model for me. The qualities that have made her a role model in my eyes include the fact that she had humour, she had a big heart, she was the mother of the crew, she was a strong leader, she was never afraid to put up a good fight, she was a no nonsense person, she was an encyclopaedia of knowledge and basically I think that Voyager is Voyager because of Captain Kathryn Janeway. Although I love everyone else, if she hadn't been there OR if she had been written differently, Voyager would have been very different from what it ultimately became.

2. Thomas Eugene Paris. If Janeway is my role model, this guy is the love of my life. Seriously. He embodies all the qualities I look for in a man, I like his physical appearance too but this is not his main appeal for me. Although he is often sarcastic, he is a character with a big heart whose ironic remarks are often external signals of his internal struggles. The reason I love him of all men the most has mainly to do with the fact that we see him in all sorts of different situations - in the capacity of a friend, a lover, an ex-Maquis, a Starfleet officer, a husband, a father, a son, a pilot, a nurse, a holodeck programmer ... you name it - and all these qualities mesh into a very complex character who basically fulfils all of the abovementioned functions with perfection. He is a guy with a troubled past who has never for a second lied about it, who has always been trying to face up to it and not coming up with excuses for why he did what he did and basically he's always been trying to become better in any and all respects of his life. If he needed sarcasm to do that, then amen to it. I know that most people think that Seven's character development is the most spectacular on Voyager. I beg to disagree, I think Tom's is so outstandingly the most conspicuous one that you just can't not notice it.

3. Everyone else. Seriously, although there are some other shows I like - none as much as VOY - and generally I like most of the characters on those shows (Stargate or CSI series for example), I've never felt that I would feel all the characters so close to me. Do you remember how even Zahir in DARKLING was jealous of the closeness that existed among the crew? And he had every reason. These people just love each other in spite of the occasional conflicts that occur among them. And even more importantly, they have the courage to express this love. It flows so naturally among the crew members no matter if it's Mother Janeway, Clown Neelix, Perfection Seven or Holographic I'm-a-genius Doctor or anyone else. When two or more of these people are put together in whatever situation - from dangerous to humorous - that element of love is just there all the time. There's an ease between the characters that is mostly absent from other shows (or is there to a lot smaller extent) and this is always true no matter which two you pair up in a given situation. There are some pairs that we are so used to - J/C, To/B To/H D/K D/7 N/K Tu/N, etc - but when you think about it, these people love each other so much and behave so naturally in the others' presence that there is absolutely nothing unusual about selecting two who are normally not thought of as a typical pair and putting them in a situation - like To/N, C/H, B/S ... etc. All in all, a great crew.

4. Humour. Best humour I've ever seen in any series. I'm sorry but the so-called humour of sitcoms and any other shows that are "meant" to be humorous bores me. Whether it's Al Bundy or The Big Bang Theory, You Rang My Lord or Two And A Half Men, I get easily bored with this kind of humour and after two episodes I feel that I'd rather go back to the Delta Quadrant. Voyager's sense of humour is exquisite, basically because the show is not meant to be funny and humour only serves as a means to make it more interesting. Voyager's primary aim is not to make you laugh but it does all the time. No matter whether it's Janeway's intellectual, Tuvok's logical, the Doctor's narcissistic or Tommyboy's sarcastic humour, this show keeps cracking me up all the time. In fact, the more I'm watching it, the more I'm appreciating every aspect of it and this includes the subtleties of the humour that's there from the beginning to the end.

5. Best opening sequence. Need I say more? This isn't just the best Star Trek opening sequence, this is the best opening sequence of all time. Both musically and visually. Voyager is far superior in my book to any shows, including any other Star Trek shows and this is the one aspect where this superiority is the most conspicuous.

6. Uniforms. I am really glad they never changed over to the ugly uniforms in later seasons of Deep Space Nine. I much prefer these colourful ones, they emphasize the light-hearted nature of the show. In general, I am very happy that this was never turned into a dark show and I think the question of the uniforms was handled accordingly.

7. The premise. A ship lost in space - an excellent premise. Although a lot of people think the show never lived up to its premise, again, I beg to differ. It did in my book. To me, StarGate Universe was the series that never did it: all that dark tone on the ship, the cantankerous nature of basically the whole bunch with a hateful character as the lead ... just by talking about it, it brings back all the negative feelings I had when watching it. Voyager was great, it never took that dark direction. This was a pretty unique way of handling the premise and they did it very well: the Maquis saw there was absolutely no reason for not cooperating and focussed on getting home instead of fighting with Starfleet. This gave us an emotional closeness to the Maquis as well - if they had decided to remain hostile, the whole show would have felt a lot more alienating. You would constantly have been suspicious of everyone and everything and ultimately it would have stretched it for me. Voyager was in a difficult position anyway and very often enemies were already aboard - you didn't need to make the regular crew into a group that constantly fought with each other. The relatively little conflict we saw between the Maquis and Starfleet was enough to signal to the viewers that not everyone was happy. Also, this question could be approached from a different point of view as well: you didn't need to be Maquis to be unhappy like the three stray dogs in GOOD SHEPHERD.

8. Villains. I know that the Kazon are criticized all the time but I really liked them. They gave us the whole Seska - Michael Jonas arc, which was really interesting in earlier seasons. Also, their regular appearance gave a certain structure to the show that was unfortunately missing in the last two seasons.
Having said that, they were by far not my favourite villains - but they were all right in my book. I really love the Borg and frankly I could have done with three times as many borg episodes as what we got and would still not have felt that Janeway had somehow "neutered" them. To me, all the borg episodes are exciting ... not for a second do I feel when our main characters are inside a borg cube that I can let down my guard ... Plus Seven's whole background story was super interesting and in this way her personal story tied very well into the main borg storyline.
But of all enemies, the Hirogen were the most enjoyable one for me. I loved all their stories, I wish more had been done with them. The only villains I don't really like are the Mallon and I wish they had used season 5 for another Hirogen story arc, too. But basically I like them a lot and can't wait to see the day (which never seems to arrive) when finally a Voyager author decides to give us a good Hirogen-based novel, preferably a trilogy.

9. Episodes. I could go on and on about this ... Suffice it to say that with the exception of FURY (which I hate) I appreciate all the episodes. Out of the 172 eps at least 160 are my favourite, which only leaves me with a handful episodes that I like less or find quite boring (most notably THE HAUNTING OF DECK TWELVE - yawn). But on the whole, I find all the episodes super interesting whether they are Janeway's or Tom's holodeck adventures, big battles with the borg or the Krenim or whoever else, ethical dilemmas like TUVIX or LATENT IMAGE, hilariously funny like WORST CASE SCENARIO or BODY AND SOUL, thought-provoking like SACRED GROUND or CRITICAL CARE, showing unresolved past like TATTOO or LINEAGE, hallucinations like PERSISTENCE OF VISION or ONE, showing our characters in love like UNFORGETTABLE or FAIR HAVEN or even over-the-top ones like THRESHOLD or THE VOYAGER CONSPIRACY. Bottom line is that episodes show a great variety (my fav one being SCORPION) and no matter what kind of episodes they are, they are always good.

10. Last but not least: Voyager's contact with Starfleet (in later seasons) and the recurring characters from other Star Trek shows. There's not much to say about this, except that in this way their quest for getting home was given an extra dimension and this made room for even more emotional stories than up to that point.
 
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