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Jennifer Lien status

And I did find some malice in that sentence from the OP.
Not to mention that the numerous descriptions of Jennifer as being shy and introvert doesn't fit the OP:s description either.

I don't know anything about her personally but the fact she didn't talk a lot at conventions or whatever may not mean she's shy and introverted. When I'm a large group I tend not to talk and people have mistakenly thought it's because I'm shy. I'm not. I just don't say anything unless I have something worth saying and I tend to let the most extroverted people have the floor because I don't want to compete for attention. However when it's just me and my close friends I do and say what I want...people who might happen to see me in the two different settings might think I had a split personality or something. So the OP's remarks may be perfectly true and the observations that others have made be true as well.

I do wish though the OP would come back and explain a bit more about what was meant by the karma remark. Unless Jennifer was constantly getting caught with drugs and was somehow working the system to get out of jail or something I don't know how her present situation could be considered 'karma'.
 
"Drugs" is a very broad word, that should include Alcohol, nicotine and caffeine.

Can we stop being mean to drugs, just because %1 of the people who take drugs irresponsibly are extremely vocal about how it's not their own fault that their life turned to shit.
 
This makes no sense. You describe an extroverted girl with a goal who worked towards it and got it and along the way used substances that you admit were commonly used at the time. And then you see her years later having some HUGE problems and you say it's karma?

If everyone who was substance using in high school had that karma the world would collapse.


I kind of assumed they meant karma for using drugs

And I assumed they meant karma for "driving through the BK to announce she was leaving" their little town for bigger and "better" things.

I don't know her nor have I seen her at a con, but self proclaimed Star Trek archivist Richard Arnold (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Arnold ) did discuss her extreme shyness and poor self esteem at a New Jersey Creation Con about 5-6 years ago and IIRC how easy it was for her Mom to come in and run rough shod over Jen's life.

As far as karma goes... those of us left behind at the BK should remember what happened to Richard Cory and thank our lucky stars.

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/richard-cory
 
Celebrities and rehab go together like death and taxes. It's so cliché. Jennifer Lien was not and is not special for that, in any regard, except that she's a STAR TREK girl. Watching Voyager, she's "in our homes" entertaining us, trying to make us forget out troubles, for a little while. And here, her troubles are consuming her life. It doesn't seem fair, or like "karma," at all.

I'm really glad she's getting help, but even if the best results come of it, she's still going to be made to pay for the mental insanity of her flashing incident, for a long time. Possibly ... for the rest of her natural Life. And for what - you know? Her brain's fried, it's not like she's been rational, all these years. She doesn't even welcome fan mail, for support and encouragement. All we can do is offer our prayers and our hopes ... and I certainly do.
 
Sometimes I get the impression that almost everyone in Hollywood have some "issues".
Acting is obviously a more dangerous profession than being in a rock band. A lot of crap going on off-screen.

However, I did find an interesting comment on this site:
http://www.dayonepatch.com/index.ph...ith-exposing-herself-to-minors-weird-mugshot/

Among the comments under the article, I found this comment:

Just watched SLC punk again a few days ago, been 10+ years. I find it funny how much my life kinda mirrored theirs, right down to the copious amounts of lsd, dead friends and savagery, before becoming a normal human being. I did know Sandy was Jenn Lien though.

I knew she had troubles with law, she was arrested this year for domestic assault, and in 2012 for the same thing. She mentioned in an interview that her firing from Voyager so they could bring in Seven caused her severe self esteem problems, as well as anxiety, which led to drug addiction, before she cleaned up and was working toward a phd in nutrition. Apparently the problems are back.

If anyone have seen that interview, I would be very happy to know more about it.

It's so incredibly sad. I remember an interview with her on the startrek.com site from 2010 where she describes her happy domestic life and was working towards a phd in nutrition,as the quote above says. Then something must have happened because the next time she shows up in media, she's in Harriman, arrested for domestic assault.
And we know the rest. :weep:
 
"Drugs" is a very broad word, that should include Alcohol, nicotine and caffeine.
If most recreational drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, were to disappear tomorrow, the people addicted to them would suffer both psychological and physical withdrawals, for many, to the extent they would need professional help. By contrast, if caffeine were to disappear tomorrow, everyone would be grumpier than normal in the morning for about a month, and then life would go on as normal.
 
If most recreational drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, were to disappear tomorrow, the people addicted to them would suffer both psychological and physical withdrawals, for many, to the extent they would need professional help. By contrast, if caffeine were to disappear tomorrow, everyone would be grumpier than normal in the morning for about a month, and then life would go on as normal.
There's a difference between drugs and drugs.
Coffee don't kill anyone.
Nicotine does. It kills slowly.
The same for pot and marijuana. It kills the braincells. I read about a famous rock musician whos first advice to young kids who wanted to be musicians was "Don't do drugs!"
This musician smoked marijuana for some years and it made him stupid. It became difficult to write songs and remember the lyrics. So he quit somoking the crap.
Alcohol kills. It's more dangerous than many thinks.It's OK for those who are strong and can handle it but for other people it can be deadly.
But worst are the narcotics. It's easy to be addicted.
It's easy to sit and say that they who have become addicted have themselves to blame. But it's easy to be fooled into doing that stuff.
Just look at Stevie Nicks in Fleetwood Mac. They told her that she should try cocaine. "Ah, try it. It's not dangerous. This is the rich mans drug. You don't get addicted by doing this."
So she tested. And got hooked. And it took time for her to get rid of the addiction.
The worst is that there are a lot of people who earn fortunes of distributing the crap: Dealers, drug barons, Al Qaeda, you name it. Not so fun for some people to know that the cocaine they bought yesterday have financed the Al Qaeda bomb which killed 20 people in a shopping mall today.
Me? I drink coffee (just like Janeway), I don't smoke, I can drink beer and alcohol occasionally but not much and I don't do drugs like pot, marijuana and heavier stuff. I've seen to many people ruin their lives with such crap.
 
If most recreational drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, were to disappear tomorrow, the people addicted to them would suffer both psychological and physical withdrawals, for many, to the extent they would need professional help. By contrast, if caffeine were to disappear tomorrow, everyone would be grumpier than normal in the morning for about a month, and then life would go on as normal.

So speed would be cool if the withdrawals could be muted?
 
It would certainly be less uncool, but of course there are other things that make it more deleterious to one's health than caffeine. Just further proves my point that there's a world of difference between caffeine and most other recreational drugs.
 
I don't do drugs. Not even pot. Too poor for beer. If I had beer money, I'd spend it on comic books. There are so many TPBs I regret not owning... The library in the east wing is practically barren.

Legalizing drugs, stops crime, and generates tax revenue. Besides if you have an official record of who is taking what, you can keep an eye on them, maybe even make counseling and therapy a condition of getting their prescription renewed... Besides, wouldn't it be ice to experience the original Coca Cola recipe, back from when it really had cocaine in it?
 
Legalizing drugs, stops crime ...
No it won't, sir ... Jennifer Lien's proof of that. But it will prevent silly college students from sharing cells with cutthroats, rapists and whackadoos and let them have a clean record, otherwise and maybe, even, get a decent job.
 
Jennifer's problem is mental health, not drugs.

The only drug for sure we know that she is on is alcohol, because of the DUI.

The only excuse for a DUI, is if you go to sleep wake up 8 hours later, and still fail a breathalyzer test.

It's not a good excuse, but in 2016 that's the only reason any of us should be drunk behind a wheel, when we know that the police are everywhere looking for drunk drivers.
 
But sugar, beef and Cadillacs, go nuts.
I'm not sure if this comment is serious or in jest. But any drug addict's loved one who could wave a magic wand and switch out the drug addiction for a so-called addiction to sugar, beef, cars, videogames, etc would be wise to take that bargain, and I'd be willing to bet most would do so. I'd be willing to bet a majority of addicts themselves would do so. There's such a world of difference between a drug addiction with physical and psychological consequences and the unwise overuse of something some people dislike.
 
Addiction is about making bad choices despite being completely aware of the very negative and imminent consequences.

Bad choices with sugar leads to obesity and diabetes.

Bad choices with cars leads to debt, crippling debt, and maybe losing your house and family. Diverting huge sums of money into a collection that should be spent on breakfast for the family is never the most loving of decisions.

Bad choices with beef, leads to cholesterol, heart disease and clogged arteries, and death.

:)

The difference between above and heroin, is that Heroin is worth it.

It's the best feeling in the world, times a million, that can last for days.

Heroin makes an orgasm look like a duck squeezing out a fart.

No one should be able to stop Heroin if they start.

Don't start.
 
I have to disagree about Kes being almost invisible in the last episodes of season 3. She did have a certain amount of screen time in the episodes "Real Life", "Displaced" and most of all "Scorpion #1". In fact, her appearances in "Before And After" and "Scorpion" gave me the impression that she would play a more important role in the future seasons of Voyager.

Now, if they planned to dump her early on, they had the opportunity to do so in "Darkling" but as we saw, Kes did choose to stay on the ship with her friends and colleagues. Not to mention that if there had been a plan back in season 3 to dump the character in the beginning of season 4, I'm sure that the producers and writers should have come up with that as an official excuse when people started to question their original statement that "Jennifer left of her own free will".

As for "that episode in season 6" and their reason for coming up with it, I still think that it was a reply to those fans who committed a blasphemy by trying to persuade the "gods" to bring back Kes as a regular character in season 6. I still see no reason at all for bringing back a character which they had made everything possible to wipe out from the history of Voyager and from the minds of the fans.

What I know and have heard about from some sources, the letter campaign was noted among the "gods" of the Star Trek Universe. So those "gods" had two options:
1. Bring back the character as a regular in season 7 (if Jennifer had accepted to do it).
2. Totally ignore the wishes of the Kes fans and continue as before.
Option 2 would have been the logical choice if they hadn't noticed the campaign or simply had chosen to ignore it.
Instead they went for option 3, to bring back the character only to destroy, humiliate and finnaly kill of the character which was their original plan and by doing so showing a finger to those obnoxious fans who had commited blasphemy by question their former decision to kick out the character and even worse, tried to tell them what to do.

If they wanted drama and high ratings, there were a lot of other things they could have done. Henry Starling returning from the future, a horror episode with Suspiria or simply play safe with their beloved "TNG card" by bringing in Q, Riker, Picard, or a resurrected Tasha Yar or something like that. Or maybe Captain Kirk himself from an alternate timeline. Something like that could have given Voyager a shot in the arm and rasied interest outside the Voyager fanbase for a show which had been going down in ratings and interest since the temporal raise when Seven was introduced.

Did they really think that Voyager fans in general and Kes fans in particular would like that episode? No, I don't think that they were that stupid. They did know exactly what they were doing.

At that point they had more and less given up on Voyager and was planning ahead for their new project Enterprise where they should show the world how TOS really should have been made from the beginning. They just let Voyager run its course and finished the race by showing the finger to another Voyager fanbase, the even bigger J/C fanbase by throwing the Chakotay-Seven romance in their faces.

Lynx,

As far as my statement about the last five episodes, it's not really a contention, it's much closer to being a fact. Check out her line counts in Chakoteya. I'm not saying she was totally absent from the Doc's reconsideration of his happy home, but there's no doubt that B'Elanna was the driving force. Displaced? Really? 1 line. Period. And if you choose to watch it again sometime, you will notice exactly what I'm referring to about the apparent blocking of her being even seen clearly, let alone heard from again. As for Scorpion 1, how did her representation differ from what we saw in Part 2, other than just being the introduction that tells us that we are about to see episodes in which her raison d'etre is to once again have progressively advanced psychic powers that will allow her to be the Cassandra that sounds the warning klakon about the Undine. If no other aspects of her character that we were used to viewing, are shown in Part 2, at which time it's been established that the decision for Lien to get the chop had been made, what makes you think that the intentionality of her role in Part 1, realistically implied a greater role in the show in the future, let alone that she had a future? As I've said, that the People spoke up for Wang may really have been the coup de grace. Yes, Kim was tantalizingly near death in 1, but wasn't that simply the mechanism to show how to develop the means to defeat the galaxy killers, aside from the fact that he was back in the pink (well except for his negligence in using a hankie before returning to duty) before 1 ended, not resurrected just in the nick of time in 2, that would have factored in the immense power of his one week newsstand notoriety?What I'm saying is that my growing suspicion that Lien was likely to have been the one decided to be jettisoned before 2, seems more plausible based on the lack of exposure in those final episodes, and that her centrality in Darkling and B&A can, I think, be readily seen as prefigurements of that decision being at least contemplated earlier in the season (no. not early on), by virtue of the content of those episodes and the implications that they conveyed. I seriously doubt that the determination had been made at the time of Darkling, so contending that she could have just as easily disembarked then, doesn't really stand up to scrutiny I think, aside from which, it would have been rather awkward for her to leave about three quarters of the way through the season. Also, I don't believe that TPTB would have been inclined to pay Lien for seven episodes worth of salary for no work at all. Finally, what really is the basis for all your wrangling over the wording of her release? I hardly think they would admit that they plainly didn't want her around any more or that their writers couldn't have done more effective work highlighting the character, if that was their intention (although of course it should have been). She wasn't fired, she simply wasn't renewed. However, official explanations can be maintained to have played Ring around the Rosie with that fact, seems pretty irrelevant and a matter of semantics that could be jerked around with, however it was desired.

As to your positing of perceived options that the show runners had to decide between, or create a hybrid, because it was forced on them by this groundswell of fans with pitchforks, well I'd like to see the sources you cite of a sizable letter campaign that got in the face of said villains. I have no doubt that most, if not all , Kes sites that were extant at the time, would have been agitating for such an outpouring of deeply felt correspondence demanding a return. But, realistically after all that time, how many disgruntled Kes fans are we talking about? I believe that were far more audience members just plain disgruntled with the show in general, than for the reason you suggest. Also, why would such a campaign that sought a mass demonstration not have happened far earlier, such as just after the character was expurgated? Wouldn't it seem logical that developing a critical mass would have been much more plausible right away, than two plus years later? This notion of the suits being faced with an issue like this that had to be dealt with, I'm sorry but it seems much more like wishful thinking, than something at all tenable, again absent anything quantifiable that one can produce to give it any credence. My sense is that presenting anything from the sources you refer to, would be a pretty quixotic search at this point, but I certainly would be more than a little interested to view it.

I don't think you've alleged anything that would counter what I thought was the likely provenance of Fury, which again, is hardly a novel, or perhaps more importantly, very difficult concept to forward to easily fill the demands of an episode, at a specific time, when perhaps the writers weren't coming up with anything particularly compelling otherwise. I really don't find your alternate oldie but goodie recommendations, to be ideas that would set the world on fire, or as Chakotay struggled so to do, set a fire at all. Picard and Riker? Wouldn't they tend to dominate the scenery, making our nominal heroes rather scarce? We got that brilliant idea some years later in a rather more significant episode. I don't think having had a precursor of that bilge would have played out to the advantage of the Voyager cast any more successfully. Another Q? Don't a lot of folks think that he'd been worn down to mediocre histrionics by his last appearance on the show? Henry Starling? I think the amount of plundering that had actually been shown was quite sufficient to make the idea of another appearance less than scintillating. Now, Rain Robinson somehow being worked in again, that's another story, but....you didn't mention it.:( Kirk? Would Shatner really have been particularly motivated to show up in what was widely perceived to be a wan, deracinated disappointment? I like Suspiria, but really only in a totally redone series finale, one in which Kes would definitely appear.

I won't point to it as a great example of Trek dramaturgy, but I don't think one has to fish around quite so strenuously to find the premise plausible, and she did get to go home at the end, alive and once again aware of the reality of what happened before her grand adventure, that simply didn't work out as she so hoped and anticipated it would when it began. Also, in the name of accuracy, while Kes didn't exactly trip off the tongues of characters frequently after she left, I believe she wasn't absolutely wiped from the audience's memory, being mentioned in two episodes afterwards, I believe. (Voyager Conspiracy and another I can't recall at the moment).



Not that it's hard to give him credit for that, but to me it seems like that's what anyone in a loving relationship would do....well SHOULD do

While I'm about as far from your opinion of the abilities of Jennifer Lien and how she used them to create one of the singular characters (not major, mind you, though could have been) in not only the series, but the canon, I do give you many kudos for what, plainly should be the verity in a relationship constituted of, and meant for the deepest essence, that can exist between two people, clearly putting aside as irrelevant, peculiar quirks of the couple's divergent physiognomy, only in play for a very short time anyway. Such a union deserves the full respect that allowing it to play out to the end, with the same commitment that it began with, is a core value that all of us would be better off seeing more of in our own world!!!:techman:



I wasn't talking about when Tom was married to Kes. She was already the mother of his baby girl and everything, so naturally, her status was instantly elevated to where no matter what else happened between them, ever after, she'd always have that over him. Tom owed Kes everything ... everything. But when Kes started to age out of the relationship to where she's ... like ... old and decrepit and Tom's still young and virile ... what's it all about? How could he stay married to her? He does! Of course, we see that in the final thing. But ...

Yeah, in my 'head canon' if you like, Tom & Kes had stopped being intimate for a quite while, by that point. He should have, if not divorced her, outright ... at least "separated" from Kes. And at the same time always being there, for her. When she needed him, he'd be there, like Johnny on the Spot. Anytime. For anything. He'd be there. That's what I was really getting at, not so much loving her up, when they were kind of equal in the relationship. I was talking more about after Kes had gotten too old for Tom. She'd stopped becoming his wife and became his granny ... what to do? You know? What to do ...

Of all people, you probably know that episode as well as one can. Again, Kes looked almost exactly the same as when Linnis came into the world, only slightly more than six months before the demise that would have befallen her, at exactly the natural life span (at least of non-enhanced or perhaps pre-Nacene contact Ocampans) that was allotted her. If her journey hadn't begun when it did, is there any reason to presume that in her last year or two she wouldn't have appeared as was the case when she did receive that treatment in her return to the present day timeline? So 6-8 months before natural death, still getting some. A month or two before said death, when she was still working, quite an attractive if nominally middle aged woman. I don't see why Tom's drive wouldn't still be on autopilot at that point. Last few weeks to month, all right she's definitely significantly older looking, but hardly one of the crones from Macbeth. Gentle physical companionship and reassurance would still have been in order, but for the fact that her pilot light was out and her perception would have been being felt up, albeit benignly, by a total stranger. Probably not a pleasant experience for either of them. But that's all of maybe a month. Good god man, you really don't think Tom was capable of such an adjustment for someone who saved him, and in return, he wanted and desired more than anything else to have his world revolve around? Finally, as said above, without temporal shenanigans entering into play, Kes back to her most beautiful for most of that gifted life extension. Definitely getting some.

In any case, I just don't see you have made any kind of convincing argument, even if Tom was the type of individual so callously hung up on appearances(which he wasn't) to the person whom he pledged an existence to be lived to the end, which he obviously knew what the parameters were, from the beginning.
 
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I probably should've edited that post, now that I review it, again. Look at it how you will ... but when I'm on a roll, I just have to go with it. I'm not one to keep anything bottled up, inside.
 
Acting is about making choices.

The better an actor is, the more choices they can make.

We can't really tell if these people are good or bad at acting until we see if they are are not the same in every thing they do.

Excellent perspective, I agree, on how one can make distinctions in what one sees an actor bring to a variety of roles. :techman: In Jennifer Lien's case, a movie that isn't much mentioned here, as being in her portfolio, is SLC Punk. A character, Sandy, that is about as far away from Kes as one can imagine. First, you can barely even recognize that it's the same person. Bus aside from that surface distinction, in a scene in which she and the lead are experiencing an acid trip, I find that in the nightmare landscape that the world devolves into around them, Lien exhibits an extremely terrifying and truly frightening persona, done without any affectation at all. It is a stunning scene I think, in an overall performance, that appearance aside, presents someone caught up very convincingly in a disconnected and lost milieu. Worth a look to see what else Lien was capable of.


I have no idea how long it takes Beltran to memorize a script, but if he only has to memorize his bits, if you think about how much they gave him in Voyager, there's rarely over 5 minutes of talking per script.
Here's a list showing how many lines everyone had for season one to three.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/LineCountS1-S3.htm
Chakotay had 4 lines in Cathexis.

Yes, but that episode was nothing without his spirit being all over the place, almost the entire time. Now if you're inclined to give all the credit there to the work of his medicine bundle, fine, but in my book, intense practice and rehearsal must come into play if the essence o your character so effectively drives the action, throughout the episode no less.

Come on, cut the guy some slack!!!:p


Well it does make sense from a production stand point to keep a character that would bring more ratings. If appearing in a magazine brought more ratings then it makes sense from production point of view to keep him. TV shows are all about ratings and money.

He was a minor character before he was on the list. If the showrunners really thought that winding up 20 something on a roster, the contents of which are likely forgotten about by the time the next edition hits the newsstands, unless you're in the top 5, was so significant why didn't they at least try to get something out of this so called publicity? Chakoteya doesn't list Scorpion 2's line count for some reason, but in the three subsequent episodes Kim had a total of 19 lines. Wow. That's less than a typical episode that has a decent number of scenes on the bridge and he's pretty much obliged to mouth the usual quotient of bibblebabble, which admittedly, he along with B'Elanna were champs at rendering. Okay, in the remaining 4 seasons he had perhaps 5 episodes that he was the featured or principal supporting character. He wouldn't have had that many without making that singular spotlight magazine appearance? And he remained an ensign!!!! He didn't bring more ratings, he was never going to bring more ratings, and as poorly as they thought of him, I rather doubt TPTB ever thought that he would either.

What seems much more likely, though much less so to be talked about, was that at a time when they really were all but invisible on TV, to ditch a character played by an Asian-American actor, especially one that had earned a, um..."plaudit", would have earned a good bit more negative jibes aimed at the production, than was worth even contemplating having to deal with. So ipso facto, an actor with those wonderful work habits and entitlement syndrome gets to stay employed, while a blonde white actress, who if she had stayed would also have nearly made the male-female actor proportion equal, gets the push. Well, given that the incoming actress was also blonde, but was actually apprehended by more than maybe 1 person, as the character that was going to have any impact on the show's ratings, that popularity factor for Wang, really becomes to make sense. I suppose. Allegedly.....
 
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