Star Wars Books Thread

[fireproof78]

Pre-TPM, everything from the Thrawn Trilogy onwards was considered "basically canon" simply because it was felt there was never going to be any more films, so these new adventures was all we had. When TPM came out things changed. There were films again, and the thing that no one really wrote about directly, the Clone Wars, was a possible thing now. Afther that set of movies there had been some major changes and the EU adapted as best it could while moving forwards with the Heroes of Yavin (who had not changed much in the PT) and with new stuff around the new films. Then TCW started and threw a part of the EU books around it into the Great Heap. But the Heroes of Yavin were still untouched by this. Only when it was finally decided there would be sequel movies did the now long line of novels about the Heroes of Yavin post- Endor become "well that didn't happen in this version of events". Maybe cause we never really thought a sequel would be made anymore.

Does it change that the novels exist? No. Does it take away from the enjoyment they caused? No. Will it be difficult to get people who have not read then the read them? I don't know. There is a large potential for confusion now with a large number of novels verse both TCW and TFA. Not so much Rebels as that was an area that wasn't all that explored, and when it was it was via a known character. So far nothing is really off with Rebels verses what we've know before outside of some details that were covered mostly in roleplaying games rather than the older novels.

About the only things we don't know if they happened or not and probably won't because I doubt the canon will shift back to it again, is all the Ewoks materials (the cartoon and the two TV movies). Wicket's adventures on Endor are easily isolated from the rest of the universe and could have happened or not without disturbing the rest of the canon.

See, I was already getting confused with the sheer amount of material out there. I followed the Jedi Academy series for a while, and tried the NJO, but just couldn't get in to it. Then the Vong, the Legacy and then I gave up.

I might try them eventually, and I have several Legends books because I like them. So, I have no issue with Legends and Disney canon sitting side by side.

 

[WebLurker]

Spoiler: About Mara Jade

Once she killed the clone Luuke Skywalker, she no longer felt drien to try and obey the Emperor's final command. She then joined with Luke at his Jedi Academy, and felt like a bit of a foil for him. I was ok with that, up until a certain point, but when she was killed I just got annoyed and gave up.

Spoiler

Oh, okay. When you said "cloned Emperor," I thought you were talking about the Dark Empire comics, where Palpatine cheats death through cloning.

In Zahn's Vision of the Future novel, he uses Mara to basically express his annoyance with certain elements that the novels had introduced and tired to retcon them out or reset things back to a way he preferred. As a side effect, the character skirts really close to being sanctimonious at times, although Zahn avoided it by only just (no thanks to the author's tracts, though). One thing he seemed to thumb his nose at was the cloned Emperor story, since Mara outright says that she never believed it was the real Palpatine, despite the original story making it clear it was. So, I'd wondered if you're annoyance was her being used as a mouthpiece in that book or something.

I didn't really care for the character's death, myself. In fact, when the reboot happened, I was hoping that the character would stay around as Mrs. Skywalker, but the death story be de-canonized. Obviously that didn't happen.

 

[Reverend]

^Uh, guys, why are we putting spoiler tags on plot details from a 25 year old book? I'm pretty sure all of those cats are out of their respective bags.

Apropos of nothing: I realise I may be the very last person in the universe to realise this, but I just now discovered my line about "Jan Ors living on in Hera" turns out to be more literal than I'd thought: Sound familiar?

 

[Set Harth]

It was canon right up until GL disagreed with it and put something else on screen.

And that didn't happen as often as you seem to imply.

GL didn't agree with most of it

You made that up.

and it didn't influence his considerations of stories one way or the other.

Where's Anakin's ROTS scar from again? What was that business on Cato Neimoidia supposed to be about?

Canon was broken down in to different levels

Yes, with the lowest level being "N"-canon, meaning Non-canon. What does that tell us about the rest of it?

There is not a single facet of canon status that makes a story more or less entertaining.

Which remains totally irrelevant to a discussion about the question of canonicity. Or do you really think I'm trying to tell you what you enjoyed?

The *only* media that this rule ever applied to pre-Disney was the movies and The Clone Wars series.

Still 100% false. You're pointlessly trying to rewrite history, while brazenly throwing the recollections of everyone who lived through that period under the bus, but the historical record stands.

 

[fireproof78]

I follow none of what you said. I'm making up nothing, but going from memory which may be faulty.

^Uh, guys, why are we putting spoiler tags on plot details from a 25 year old book? I'm pretty sure all of those cats are out of their respective bags.

Apropos of nothing: I realise I may be the very last person in the universe to realise this, but I just now discovered my line about "Jan Ors living in in Hera" turns out to be more literal than I'd thought: Sound familiar?

Spoiler: Spoilers

I tag everything ever since I spoiled someone's enjoyment of Deus Ex

 

[WebLurker]

And that didn't happen as often as you seem to imply.

Well, originally, the Clone Wars were a couple decades before the timeframe of The Phantom Menace and were about the Republic defending itself from invading clone armies (Thrawn trilogy), Ben Kenobi's homeworld was Tattooine (I, Jedi) and he was Owen Lars' brothers (Return of the Jedi novelization and vaguely mentioned in Jedi Apprentice series), Darth Vader either lost his original right arm after A New Hope as punishment (Thrawn Trilogy) or in a fight with Luke (Splinter of the Mind's Eye), Jabba the Hutt was a "Hut" and a humanoid (A New Hope novelization and original Marvel comics), Greedo was barely an adult in A New Hope (Tales From the Mos Eiesley Cantina), "Boba Fett" was the alias of a man born on Concord Dawn (Tales of the Bounty Hunters, the Han Solo Trilogy), a former stormtrooper (Dark Empire, Tales of the Bounty Hunters), and/or an adult Mandalorian who served in the Clone Wars (original Marvel comics), Palpatine was a non-Force-using figurehead (A New Hope novelization), Mon Cala wasn't discovered until after the Empire was founded (West End Games RPG), the clone troopers didn't have biochips to enforce Order 66 (Clone Commando series), the rules for detecting Jedi were different (Jedi Academy Trilogy), C-3PO had never had a memory wipe (The New Rebellion), and numerous mentioned to Jedi (even prequel era ones) raising families (Tales of the Jedi, I, Jedi, Children of the Jedi, Jedi Apprentice series, Rogue Planet).

While some of these were retconned to be welded together, there have been a lot of changes over time, thanks to the movies introducing new things.

Where's Anakin's ROTS scar from again? What was that business on Cato Neimoidia supposed to be about?

Throwaway lines to give a sense of history and things happening between the margins of the films?

Yes, with the lowest level being "N"-canon, meaning Non-canon. What does that tell us about the rest of it?

Given that the movies and Clone Wars usually treated everything as N-Canon, I'm not sure how much that really means.

Still 100% false. You're pointlessly trying to rewrite history, while brazenly throwing the recollections of everyone who lived through that period under the bus, but the historical record stands.

As someone who was there, I think that, in retrospect, Legends was treated as canon in name only, so I don't think he's too off the mark.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, originally, the Clone Wars were a couple decades before the timeframe of The Phantom Menace and were about the Republic defending itself from invading clone armies (Thrawn trilogy), Ben Kenobi's homeworld was Tattooine (I, Jedi) and he was Owen Lars' brothers (Return of the Jedi novelization and vaguely mentioned in Jedi Apprentice series), Darth Vader either lost his original right arm after A New Hope as punishment (Thrawn Trilogy) or in a fight with Luke (Splinter of the Mind's Eye), Jabba the Hutt was a "Hut" and a humanoid (A New Hope novelization and original Marvel comics), Greedo was barely an adult in A New Hope (Tales From the Mos Eiesley Cantina), "Boba Fett" was the alias of a man born on Concord Dawn (Tales of the Bounty Hunters, the Han Solo Trilogy), a former stormtrooper (Dark Empire, Tales of the Bounty Hunters), and/or an adult Mandalorian who served in the Clone Wars (original Marvel comics), Palpatine was a non-Force-using figurehead (A New Hope novelization), Mon Cala wasn't discovered until after the Empire was founded (West End Games RPG), the clone troopers didn't have biochips to enforce Order 66 (Clone Commando series), the rules for detecting Jedi were different (Jedi Academy Trilogy), C-3PO had never had a memory wipe (The New Rebellion), and numerous mentioned to Jedi (even prequel era ones) raising families (Tales of the Jedi, I, Jedi, Children of the Jedi, Jedi Apprentice series, Rogue Planet).

While some of these were retconned to be welded together, there have been a lot of changes over time, thanks to the movies introducing new things.



Throwaway lines to give a sense of history and things happening between the margins of the films?



Given that the movies and Clone Wars usually treated everything as N-Canon, I'm not sure how much that really means.



As someone who was there, I think that, in retrospect, Legends was treated as canon in name only, so I don't think he's too off the mark.

Thank you, my friend, for both understanding what he was saying and offering a different perspective. I was more like:
"What are you saying and in what language are you saying it?"
*With due respect to *M*A*S*H

 

[Reverend]

While some of these were retconned to be welded together, there have been a lot of changes over time, thanks to the movies introducing new things.

Wasn't there also a thing about Anakin's wife being a "Jedi Princess"? I forget which book that was in. Oh and then there was that young readers books that had Palpatine's offspring begin a three eyed mutant and his grandson who Kenobi hid in a secret Jedi city under Yavin 4...because reasons? R5-D4 was a force user...again for reasons? Clones have this random flaw where they can't pronounce their name (and only *their* name) properly.

There's all kinds of wacky crap in the EU that people seemed determined beyond all logic to force into that ridiculous hodgepodge system. Don't get me wrong I like a little wacky crap from time to time, it's the furious attempts to force all of it to "count" somehow that just makes me chuckle.

 

[fireproof78]

Wasn't there also a thing about Anakin's wife being a "Jedi Princess"? I forget which book that was in. Oh and then there was that young readers books that had Palpatine's offspring begin a three eyed mutant and his grandson who Kenobi hid in a secret Jedi city under Yavin 4...because reasons? R5-D4 was a force user...again for reasons? Clones have this random flaw where they can't pronounce their name (and only *their* name) properly.

There's all kinds of wacky crap in the EU that people seemed determined beyond all logic to force into that ridiculous hodgepodge system. Don't get me wrong I like a little wacky crap from time to time, it's the furious attempts to force all of it to "count" somehow that just makes me chuckle.

Here you go.

In that link is the Emperor's "third eyed son" (who is actually an imposter used by Dark Side Inquisitors to gain power), werewolves (So Wolfman gets some attention after all), "Skippy the Droid," R5's real name, and clone names.

If that isn't enough to get you worked up, then there is always Jaxxon.

 

[Skywalker]

I think the only part of the EU I'll truly miss (in continuity terms) is the X-wing novels. Those were my jam.

RIP Aaron Allston

 

[Set Harth]

Well, originally, the Clone Wars were a couple decades before the timeframe of The Phantom Menace

It depended on which author you were listening to. Barbara Hambly, for example, referenced a Clone Wars timeline that was something like 1 year off the eventual movie timeline, at most.

and were about the Republic defending itself from invading clone armies (Thrawn trilogy)

Not the Republic, the Empire. Though so little is said in any event that there's not much to go on.

Given that the movies and Clone Wars usually treated everything as N-Canon

That's what it means to be C-canon. However, in certain examples ( Grievous, etc. ), The Clone Wars intentionally constructed its storyline so that the EU backstory was still possible, for whatever reason. And we should not forget that some of the EU was set far enough back in the timeline that it would become increasingly hard to contradict anyway ( and that post-ROTJ material didn't get undermined so long as Lucas declined to make movies in that time period ).

the clone troopers didn't have biochips to enforce Order 66

How do you know? And by the same token the same could be said for Lucas' prequels as well. This wasn't a case of Lucas' movies contradicting the relevant EU, as the EU in question was consistent with the movies. It was a case of Filoni changing things.

Tales of the Jedi

I don't recall any of Lucas' movies establishing the Jedi doctrine on families several thousand years in the past.

Rogue Planet

The issue here isn't really a contradiction of Jedi doctrine so much as the apparent ease of arbitrarily leaving the order and returning later.

Throwaway lines

No, references to specific EU. You might be thinking of Star Wars(1977).

 

[Voth commando1]

I'm also a massive old EU fan. I get that they had to reboot, but the old EU will always be what I consider Star Wars when I think about the franchise. I love Episode VII and I like the new books I've read so I'm interested in the new canon stuff, but it will never actually take the place of the old EU for me. I can still enjoy it, but the old EU will always be my favorite.

The New Jedi Order was pretty good, but too long. It also ruined Jacen Solo, and had the single worst SW book I've ever read (Traitor). Still, not a bad series. Compared to the other universe effecting book series, it was definitely better as a story and concept then the stupid Dark Nest trilogy, and I'd say its better then most of Legacy of the Force, which was a case of the ending retroactively ruining most of the series for me. Fate of the Jedi was also not as good, but still decent. I think the long, universe effecting book series (which NJO started) weren't the strong point of the old EU, but like the EU in general managed to be mostly good, with a few exceptions.

That's an odd and truly minority opinion me and many other EU fans consider Traitor the absolute high point of both Jacen's arc and EU in general. To me it was the absolute highest Star Wars could ever achieve on a philosophical, thematic, and storytelling level. Are you sure you read it?

 

[Set Harth]

NEIN!

Nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein

nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein nein!!!!!

 

[Reverend]

I think the only part of the EU I'll truly miss (in continuity terms) is the X-wing novels. Those were my jam.

RIP Aaron Allston

I don't miss them because again, I still have them. Also, I only really enjoyed the Rogue Squadron arc. For me, Wraith Sqaudron outstayed it's welcome pretty fast. I mean a genetically engineered Gamorrean who goes by "Piggy"? Oh come on!

 

[kirk55555]

That's an odd and truly minority opinion me and many other EU fans consider Traitor the absolute high point of both Jacen's arc and EU in general. To me it was the absolute highest Star Wars could ever achieve on a philosophical, thematic, and storytelling level. Are you sure you read it?

Oh, yeah. I read it. I thought it was the worst SW book I'd ever read, and it signaled the point where Jacen became my most hated SW character. It completed his already stupid "pacifist" arc, and switched to "arrogant a-hole Jacen" arc, which continued until he became Caedus, which was his "worst Sith in the franchise" arc. I liked Jacen before NJO, but just hated him more and more from the point NJO started.

As for Traitor, its hard for me to hate an old EU book. I like a lot of the less popular books, like Darksaber, the Callista and Jedi academy trilogies, Crystal Star, etc. But, yeah, I already couldn't stand Jacen by that point of NJO, and that book just made it worse. Its one of the only old EU books (and the only one I can think of off the top of my head) that I would never read again, in any situation. The moronic Jacen/Vergere philosophy stuff alone represents all I hate about Jacen Solo starting with NJO, and leads to why I consider him the worst Sith villain once he became Caedus. I hated the "philosophy" and the story, at that point I mostly hated Jacen, I never liked Vergere and I didn't think the book was written well. For me, its truely the low point of the old EU. Some people obviously think differently, which is fine. But I really can't express how much I couldn't stand that book, or the whole Jacen Solo story arc in NJO and beyond.

I think the only part of the EU I'll truly miss (in continuity terms) is the X-wing novels. Those were my jam.

RIP Aaron Allston

Those were awesome. I liked both Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron a lot, Wraith a bit more maybe (they seemed to get better character stuff), but the whole series is probably my second favorite SW books after the Republic Commando series.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, yeah. I read it. I thought it was the worst SW book I'd ever read, and it signaled the point where Jacen became my most hated SW character. It completed his already stupid "pacifist" arc, and switched to "arrogant a-hole Jacen" arc, which continued until he became Caedus, which was his "worst Sith in the franchise" arc. I liked Jacen before NJO, but just hated him more and more from the point NJO started.

As for Traitor, its hard for me to hate an old EU book. I like a lot of the less popular books, like Darksaber, the Callista and Jedi academy trilogies, Crystal Star, etc. But, yeah, I already couldn't stand Jacen by that point of NJO, and that book just made it worse. Its one of the only old EU books (and the only one I can think of off the top of my head) that I would never read again, in any situation. The moronic Jacen/Vergere philosophy stuff alone represents all I hate about Jacen Solo starting with NJO, and leads to why I consider him the worst Sith villain once he became Caedus. I hated the "philosophy" and the story, at that point I mostly hated Jacen, I never liked Vergere and I didn't think the book was written well. For me, its truely the low point of the old EU. Some people obviously think differently, which is fine. But I really can't express how much I couldn't stand that book, or the whole Jacen Solo story arc in NJO and beyond.

Having liked Jacen in the Jedi Academy series, the NJO was a bit of a shock, and pretty much turned me away from that point in the EU.

 

[kirk55555]

Having liked Jacen in the Jedi Academy series, the NJO was a bit of a shock, and pretty much turned me away from that point in the EU.

Well, I still liked NJO as a whole and what came after (for the most part), but it definitely made Jacen Solo intolerable for me, and I'd liked him pretty well before then.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, I still liked NJO as a whole and what came after (for the most part), but it definitely made Jacen Solo intolerable for me, and I'd liked him pretty well before then.

No, I liked Jacen just fine in Jedi Academy, Young Jedi Knights, etc. Then NJO came along, and coupled that with the Vong, and I was done.

 

[Set Harth]

I like a lot of the less popular books, like Darksaber, the Callista and Jedi academy trilogies, Crystal Star, etc.

You liked Planet of Twilight? *cringe*

 

[Voth commando1]

Oh, yeah. I read it. I thought it was the worst SW book I'd ever read, and it signaled the point where Jacen became my most hated SW character. It completed his already stupid "pacifist" arc, and switched to "arrogant a-hole Jacen" arc, which continued until he became Caedus, which was his "worst Sith in the franchise" arc. I liked Jacen before NJO, but just hated him more and more from the point NJO started.

As for Traitor, its hard for me to hate an old EU book. I like a lot of the less popular books, like Darksaber, the Callista and Jedi academy trilogies, Crystal Star, etc. But, yeah, I already couldn't stand Jacen by that point of NJO, and that book just made it worse. Its one of the only old EU books (and the only one I can think of off the top of my head) that I would never read again, in any situation. The moronic Jacen/Vergere philosophy stuff alone represents all I hate about Jacen Solo starting with NJO, and leads to why I consider him the worst Sith villain once he became Caedus. I hated the "philosophy" and the story, at that point I mostly hated Jacen, I never liked Vergere and I didn't think the book was written well. For me, its truely the low point of the old EU. Some people obviously think differently, which is fine. But I really can't express how much I couldn't stand that book, or the whole Jacen Solo story arc in NJO and beyond.



Those were awesome. I liked both Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron a lot, Wraith a bit more maybe (they seemed to get better character stuff), but the whole series is probably my second favorite SW books after the Republic Commando series.

Well among anyone who is an EU fan you have an incredibly minority opinion. Also you like the Republic Commando books and Karen Traviss? I don't even want to ask. I loved the philosophy, Vergere, the Vong, Ganner Rhysode, among other parts of the book and so did most other EU fans who actually you know appreciated the EU.

Anyway that's an odd and weird opinion and I doubt among EU fans you would be popular at all for holding it.