Constitution Class Retirement

[Lance]

Correct me if wrong, but the Excelsior class ship wasn't built to take over at all when we first encountered it; it had the experimental registry prefix of "NX" instead of NCC. I took it to mean it was a test ship for a potential class of ships with transwarp drives. Only after the failure un-seen failure of the experimental drive, did it seem the ship was possibly brought into production. I say possibly, because the Excelsior was the only one we saw, maybe meaning that when the test failed, they decided nto to abandon the actual ship and re-classify it for standard duty. It wasn't until TNG time that we found another ships of that class.

Its actually a popular misnomer that the Transwarp drive "failed". Scotty tampered with it, and Excelsior was therefore unable to pursue Enterprise, but we see the ship again still in spacedock in the following movie (stock footage, I know) and I find it difficult to believe that the Starfleet corps of engineers would shrug their shoulders and assume the drive itself was a dud based on a single incident, especially when the saboteur is conspicuously later found alongside the rest of the crew of the escaping vessel. Just as likely is that Scotty's tampering was unravelled and that the transwarp experiment was ultimately a success, and led to the recalibration of the warp scale seen from The Next Generation onwards, reclassified as 'standard scale' warp drive (the 'Transwarp' label then being applied to whatever the next, hypothetical increase in warp capacity is likely to be.) Food for thought.

 

[tharpdevenport]

No, I meant it failed overall. As made obvious by no transwarp drive being used by Federations ships, including Excelsior class ones, utilizing it that point onward.

There's no in-verse indication transwarp succeeded and caused the re-drawing of the warp scale.

 

[Lance]

There's no evidence to suggest the contrary either, though. The warp scale is changed, but nobody ever declares the Excelsior experiment a failure on screen. Fandom has adopted that explanation based mainly on us seeing her fail to pursue Enterprise, but that was one incident , caused by obvious sabotage by Scotty.

Both interpretations are valid, and both are hypothetical possibilities.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Actually there was a re-drawing of the scale. The TOS Enterprise reached Warp 14 for example but by TNG Warp 10 was regarded as infinite velocity.

 

[Lance]

True. As you suggest, it's equally possible that the TNG Enterprise and the TOS Enterprise actually go the same kinds of speed, it's just that the measurements of the scale were changed.

My point is that we all make assumptions based on a hypothetical such as "The Transwarp Experiment Was A Failure", when, in fact, screen evidence leaves any theory much more open to debate.

 

[Solariabsg25]

It's like the All Good Things starships using Warp 13. It doesn't mean that they may have broken the Warp 10 barrier, it's just more convenient for Riker to order "Warp 13!" than "Warp 9.9999999999999975!"

 

[DrCorby]

An Oberth cannot succeed a Galaxy functionally. Can an Excelsior-plus succeed a Constitution? That depends less on whether both are aces-of-all-trades and more on whether there's a better match available. CV-6 wasn't succeeded by the big and beautiful USS Midway but by the humbler contemporary USS Valley Forge - the Midway introduced an all-new category of warships (despite looking like just another carrier to the layman), while the Valley Forge continued the role of the Yorktown class of which CV-6 had been part.

At the time the Excelsior and the Excelsior-with-cheeks are launched, Starfleet is also launching another new ship type - the Constellation. The latter is a closer match to the Constitution refit than the former two in terms of size, looks and specific pieces of onboard tech. Is USS Magellan perhaps the true successor of the E-A?

You seem to be very much focused on functionality alone when discussing what ship "succeeds" another. I think most people, in modern life as well as in the fictional Federation future, would focus more on the name than the strict function of a ship.

This discussion made me think about US ships named after American cities. During WW2, they were light cruisers (Atlanta, Cleveland, & Juneau classes, for example). 30 years later, those names were given to fast attack nuclear submarines (Los Angeles class, for example). There's very little similarity of function in the fleet between those two types of ships, so I don't think you could really say the fast attack submarines succeeded the light cruisers of any earlier generation. The Navy repurposed the naming scheme from cruisers to submarines. THAT is what I think most people think of when they think about one ship of the same name succeeding another. USS Atlanta (CL-51) succeeded by USS Atlanta (SSN-712), or USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) succeeded by USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-B).

That doesn't invalidate your viewpoint, focusing on ship function within a fleet. I just think that isn't the way the public, and the political class dealing with public perception, looks at these things.

 

[Spot261]

The "museum crew" interpretation suffers a bit from Kirk's wish for the new crew to have "voyages"...

It's an interesting thought nevertheless. Would Kirk really have reason to think his ship would be preserved? Would there be Starfleet precedent for placing the ships of great men (and women, BEMs, what have you) in museums? Would Kirk think of himself as "great man"?

Basically, TUC ended the Klingon threat for the time being. Starfleet no doubt could afford to retire the damaged, outdated or overcomplex and expensive ships in its arsenal, then. How many months or years would it take after Khitomer for this to become evident? Would Starfleet ever admit to a chance to downescalate?

Timo Saloniemi

I think the most likely scenario would be more along the lines of a non escalation, they might not make a decision to prematurely end the production runs or active service lives of those top end resource intensive ships, but the next generation (no pun intended) of ship designs (and refits) would likely reflect the prevailing winds. They may scale up (see the Ambassador class), but as a minority prestige project with largely peaceful intent and design philosophies.

This to me fits with what we see come TNG wherein the overall sense is of a rather demilitarised SF, with tactical capabilities having evolved alongside a broader technological curve rather than having been quite so explicitly threat driven. It seems by the mid 24th century that SF are knowingly underperforming in terms of their military capabilities, something they only rectify when more pressing threats become evident.

Just as likely is that Scotty's tampering was unravelled

Or even that he simply told them later.

 

[Ithekro]

They'll have to make new parts for Excelsior afterwards. Scotty brought them onto Enterprise and I think they went down with the ship. As I doubt McCoy held onto them the entire time.

 

[TheSubCommander]

The "museum crew" interpretation suffers a bit from Kirk's wish for the new crew to have "voyages"...

It's an interesting thought nevertheless. Would Kirk really have reason to think his ship would be preserved? Would there be Starfleet precedent for placing the ships of great men (and women, BEMs, what have you) in museums? Would Kirk think of himself as "great man"?

Basically, TUC ended the Klingon threat for the time being. Starfleet no doubt could afford to retire the damaged, outdated or overcomplex and expensive ships in its arsenal, then. How many months or years would it take after Khitomer for this to become evident? Would Starfleet ever admit to a chance to downescalate?

Timo Saloniemi

Museum ships can't go for cruises? There are all kinds of museum ships that do right now. Also, the Enterprise 1701 was a training ship at the start of Star Trek II, so I could see the E-A in that role, too. Maybe a museum/historical reenactment ship.

But, we also have to consider that at the time Kirk made his last log entry at the end of TUC, Starfleet had just informed the crew the Enterprise was to be decommissioned. SO, why would Kirk think that his ship would literally be the Enterprise in the care of another crew to begin with? It's possible even Starfleet wasn't sure what they were going to do. So, inferring that Kirk thought the E-A was getting another crew is sort of contradictory in itself.

Which really leads me back to Kirk speaking metaphorically, and that last log entry was really written as a passing of the torch to the TNG crew, and the Enterprise-D.

And finally, I know it's nice to think that the E-A saw action after its decommissioning under another ship name, but like I said, if the ship was too badly damaged, and it was too out of date, and it took less effort to build a Miranda that could do most, if not all of what the E-A could do, then I think the likely decision would have been to retire the E-A, altogether. We saw that the E-B came online about 6 months later, and you can't have two active ships of the same name in the same fleet.

Besides, seeing the Enterprise-A take a demotion of sorts, and being renamed and redeployed for some lesser task (like a garbage scow!), kind of takes away from the Enterprise-A. No, I think I like to believe the Enterprise-A also enjoyed a retirement, just like most of the crew did, after TUC. I also would like to think that Starfleet would be interested in preserving a historical ship like the Enterprise-A, which was captained by one of its most famous captains. Since the original 1701 was destroyed, the E-A would be the next best thing.

 

[J.T.B.]

You seem to be very much focused on functionality alone when discussing what ship "succeeds" another. I think most people, in modern life as well as in the fictional Federation future, would focus more on the name than the strict function of a ship.

I'm not sure that most people do feel that way, but if they do they would be using the term incorrectly. "Succession" refers to filling a vacancy in something that exists independently of its current holder or occupant. To take maybe the most obvious example, the office of president of the US exist no matter the particulars of the incumbents, which change according to the laws governing succession to that office.

Ship names do not exist independently of the ships themselves. The names come and go fairly randomly, they may be re-used quickly, or after a long lapse, or never. The closest a naval vessel comes to a system to which "succession" could be reasonably applied would be its place (role, function, duties) in a navy or fleet. "Succession" may not be the best term to use for that, but it makes more sense than using it just for the names.

 

[BillJ]

Its actually a popular misnomer that the Transwarp drive "failed". Scotty tampered with it, and Excelsior was therefore unable to pursue Enterprise, but we see the ship again still in spacedock in the following movie (stock footage, I know) and I find it difficult to believe that the Starfleet corps of engineers would shrug their shoulders and assume the drive itself was a dud based on a single incident, especially when the saboteur is conspicuously later found alongside the rest of the crew of the escaping vessel. Just as likely is that Scotty's tampering was unravelled and that the transwarp experiment was ultimately a success, and led to the recalibration of the warp scale seen from The Next Generation onwards, reclassified as 'standard scale' warp drive (the 'Transwarp' label then being applied to whatever the next, hypothetical increase in warp capacity is likely to be.) Food for thought.

I'd say that transwarp drive was a success, and the Enterprise was the renamed transwarp testbed ship USS Ti-Ho. That's how it got to the center of the galaxy so quickly in The Final Frontier.

 

[Tenacity]

They'll have to make new parts for Excelsior afterwards. Scotty brought them onto Enterprise and I think they went down with the ship.

If the Excelsior didn't have boxes filled with these components, then just have some beamed up from contractor on Earth.

 

[Dukhat]

I'd say that transwarp drive was a success, and the Enterprise was the renamed transwarp testbed ship USS Ti-Ho. That's how it got to the center of the galaxy so quickly in The Final Frontier.

Yes, and compared to that, Picard's Enterprise just putters along. And let's not even talk about that bitch Janeway. She could have gotten Voyager home in a few hours, but nooooooo...

 

[DrCorby]

I'm not sure that most people do feel that way, but if they do they would be using the term incorrectly. "Succession" refers to filling a vacancy in something that exists independently of its current holder or occupant. To take maybe the most obvious example, the office of president of the US exist no matter the particulars of the incumbents, which change according to the laws governing succession to that office.

Ship names do not exist independently of the ships themselves. The names come and go fairly randomly, they may be re-used quickly, or after a long lapse, or never. The closest a naval vessel comes to a system to which "succession" could be reasonably applied would be its place (role, function, duties) in a navy or fleet. "Succession" may not be the best term to use for that, but it makes more sense than using it just for the names.

Maybe you're right. But the lineage of ships named Enterprise has been prominently featured in Star Trek for a long time. The Rec Deck on the refit Enterprise in The Motion Picture featured an 18th century naval frigate, the WW2-era US aircraft carrier, the US space shuttle test vehicle, a ring ship (possibly an early warp vessel), and the hero ship from the original series, all vessels named Enterprise. In The Next Generation (first 4 seasons, I believe) featured a display of models of previous Enterprises, from (I believe) the nuclear aircraft carrier (CVN-65), and Starfleet vessels from the original series through the refit/1701-A, 1701-B (an unmodified Excelsior, not what was seen in ST: Generations), 1701-C (probably not the vessel design that was seen in the ep "Yesterday's Enterprise"), to 1701-D. This display was recreated and redesigned for the Sovereign-class Enterprise-E in First Contact, and redesigned again for Nemesis. (I can't find clear screen shots from those films to list what ships were included in them.) And in the series finale of Star Trek: Enterprise, the final montage includes the Enterprises from the original series, TNG, and ST: Enterprise.

So again, the progression of the NAME Enterprise is what is followed, not design or fleet function lineage. My use of the word "succession" was probably incorrect to describe the interest of the Star Trek producers and many fans in following the various ships to carry the name Enterprise. But that seems to be what links all these ships together, not what function they filled in their respective fleets. For any new Star Trek series or movie, one of the first, crucial decisions made is whether the stories will take place on a ship named Enterprise. It's a proud heritage, and very important to many fans.

 

[Ithekro]

Mind you the name Enterprise was not always transferred up in status. Between the decommissioning of the last of the sailing ships named Enterprise in the US Navy and the commissioning of the aircraft carrier, there was a motorboat named Enterprise during the First World War. There are also buildings named USS Enterprise. There were five sailing warships named Enterprise in service of the American's Navy. Some were more lightly armed than others. The last one was built well into the age of steam and was basically a surveying and later as a training ship The British had well over a dozen ships named Enterprise.

 

[Spot261]

They'll have to make new parts for Excelsior afterwards. Scotty brought them onto Enterprise and I think they went down with the ship. As I doubt McCoy held onto them the entire time.

Much like I have to get a new fuse manufactured every time my kettle blows one?

 

[Ithekro]

Much like I have to get a new fuse manufactured every time my kettle blows one?

Only if your kettle is a prototype and likely one of a kind at that point.

 

[Spot261]

typically prototypes arent constructed entirely of experimental parts

 

[Ithekro]

Well it did take them out of the transwarp computer drive. No telling if that was standard or custom parts, or if it is something they'd have on hand.

The Ship is still in Spacedock many months after the incident.