• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Jennifer Lien status

It's always sad to see someone like this fall from grace ... :sigh:

full-18723-26586-kes6.jpg


And I love this one (please, use the link to see the picture)....
https://www.picsofcelebrities.com/c...ures/large/best-pictures-of-jennifer-lien.jpg
 
I get that money is a factor in casting TV shows, but I think there are good reasons to limit a cast that have nothing to do with money. The larger the ensemble, the more diffuse the focus, and worst case scenario, you end up with a situation like The Next Generation, where it felt to me like the writers were playing round robin getting everyone from the cast involved, regardless of which character was best for a story or which story was best for a show.

Some people complain that the focus shifted to a few of the characters in the later seasons of Voyager. I loved it. It gave the show more structure and definition, with three clear leads (Janeway, Seven, doctor), two major supporting characters (B'Elanna and Tom), and a handful of minor characters (Neelix, Chakotay, Tuvok, Harry, not to mention Naomi and the Borg kids, who brought a lot to Seven and Neelix's character development--I'd take Naomi, Icheb and even Mezoti any day over Kes--in fact, I think those characters brought to the show exactly what Kes was meant to bring but failed to bring). And I'm not just saying I loved the direction of the show because it favored my personal favorite characters. My favorite character in the Star Trek franchise is B'Elanna, and I like Neelix just as much as I like Janeway and the doctor, more than I like Seven.

As for who to let go, in order to make a manageable cast, I agree with the writers' statements that they'd run into a wall with Kes' character--wrote themselves into a hole is what I'd say, by abandoning the initial concept of a child character and turning Kes into a superbeing. Omnipotent characters are harmful enough to plot and consequence when they pop up occasionally like Q. They certainly shouldn't be part of the main cast.
 
I get that money is a factor in casting TV shows, but I think there are good reasons to limit a cast that have nothing to do with money. The larger the ensemble, the more diffuse the focus, and worst case scenario, you end up with a situation like The Next Generation, where it felt to me like the writers were playing round robin getting everyone from the cast involved, regardless of which character was best for a story or which story was best for a show.

Some people complain that the focus shifted to a few of the characters in the later seasons of Voyager. I loved it. It gave the show more structure and definition, with three clear leads (Janeway, Seven, doctor), two major supporting characters (B'Elanna and Tom), and a handful of minor characters (Neelix, Chakotay, Tuvok, Harry, not to mention Naomi and the Borg kids, who brought a lot to Seven and Neelix's character development--I'd take Naomi, Icheb and even Mezoti any day over Kes--in fact, I think those characters brought to the show exactly what Kes was meant to bring but failed to bring). And I'm not just saying I loved the direction of the show because it favored my personal favorite characters. My favorite character in the Star Trek franchise is B'Elanna, and I like Neelix just as much as I like Janeway and the doctor, more than I like Seven.

As for who to let go, in order to make a manageable cast, I agree with the writers' statements that they'd run into a wall with Kes' character--wrote themselves into a hole is what I'd say, by abandoning the initial concept of a child character and turning Kes into a superbeing. Omnipotent characters are harmful enough to plot and consequence when they pop up occasionally like Q. They certainly shouldn't be part of the main cast.
I have to disagree with most of what you have written here.
I definitely liked Voyager better when all of the characters had a fair share under the spotlight than the Seven Of Nine show it became later when great characters like Chakotay, Paris, Tuvok, Neelix and Kim were shoved in the background.
I actually liked the fact that TNG used all its main characters in all seasons of the show instead of shoving anyone in the background. Even after Wesley was dumped, they stillu sed him as a recurring character and he had a decent goodbye at the end of the show.
I strongly disagree with your opinion of fourth-rate characters like Naomi, Icheb and Mezoti being beter than Kes. I don't think they added anything to the series. Even Flotter was better! :lol:
When it comes to the main characters, I like all of them with Kes, Chakotay, Janeway and Paris as the top 4.
Turning Kes into a superbeing was the sad result of kicking her out. They did that in order to get rid of the character as soon as possible in the thin, unconvincing episode "The Gift". Before that she could hadly be called a "superbeing" because her powers were very limited.
 
I have to disagree with most of what you have written here.
I definitely liked Voyager better when all of the characters had a fair share under the spotlight than the Seven Of Nine show it became later when great characters like Chakotay, Paris, Tuvok, Neelix and Kim were shoved in the background.
Some people like ensemble shows and some don't. You can count me among those who don't. But it's inaccurate to say that Voyager became the "Seven of Nine show." The emphasis on the doctor went up, not down, in Seasons 4-7, with an extra bump in doctor-related stories in Season 7. And while the proportion of Janeway stories did decrease in Seasons 4-7, relative to their proportion of Seasons 1-3 stories, Janeway still remained a focus of the show, a subject of significantly more stories than most of the supporting cast. They really did go from a Next Generation ensemble model to an original Star Trek 3 + supporting cast model (which, as a fan of Star Trek who's lukewarm about The Next Generation, I approve).

And characters don't have a "fair share" of the spotlight, apart from what makes good entertainment for the audience. I realize that you were just using the term "fair share" colloquially to mean "appropriate share," but some fans really do speak as though they're entitled to see a ton of their favorite character, regardless of the needs of the show and the desires of general viewers. I wouldn't have complained about seeing a B'Elanna episode every week, but it wouldn't have been what most viewers wanted nor what the show really needed.

Turning Kes into a superbeing was the sad result of kicking her out. They did that in order to get rid of the character as soon as possible in the thin, unconvincing episode "The Gift". Before that she could hadly be called a "superbeing" because her powers were very limited.
Giving a character supernatural powers is always dicey, but if you limit them carefully, as Spock's were, it can work. With Kes, the writers unleashed a genie they couldn't control by suggesting that she could develop and increase her powers without clearly limiting where that development would take her. But you and I have already hashed out our conflicting positions about whether there's a logical trajectory from "Cold Fire" to "The Gift" to "Fury" (with stops along the way like "Persistence of Vision" and "Warlord").
 
Look at us, even now, debating over Kes - how relevant she was and is, as a Voyager character! Personally, I was fine with her use of magic. Also, and this is just me, now, but I would've liked to have seen her with butterfly wings! Flying through the corridors of Voyager would've proved problematic, but when Harry Kim wasn't hogging the Holodeck, she could spread her wings and fly about. Especially on a planet of giant plants and flowers, like that green Jedi lady lived on, in STAR WARS, when Order 66 was given out.
 
Some people like ensemble shows and some don't. You can count me among those who don't. But it's inaccurate to say that Voyager became the "Seven of Nine show." The emphasis on the doctor went up, not down, in Seasons 4-7, with an extra bump in doctor-related stories in Season 7. And while the proportion of Janeway stories did decrease in Seasons 4-7, relative to their proportion of Seasons 1-3 stories, Janeway still remained a focus of the show, a subject of significantly more stories than most of the supporting cast. They really did go from a Next Generation ensemble model to an original Star Trek 3 + supporting cast model (which, as a fan of Star Trek who's lukewarm about The Next Generation, I approve).

And characters don't have a "fair share" of the spotlight, apart from what makes good entertainment for the audience. I realize that you were just using the term "fair share" colloquially to mean "appropriate share," but some fans really do speak as though they're entitled to see a ton of their favorite character, regardless of the needs of the show and the desires of general viewers. I wouldn't have complained about seeing a B'Elanna episode every week, but it wouldn't have been what most viewers wanted nor what the show really needed.

Giving a character supernatural powers is always dicey, but if you limit them carefully, as Spock's were, it can work. With Kes, the writers unleashed a genie they couldn't control by suggesting that she could develop and increase her powers without clearly limiting where that development would take her. But you and I have already hashed out our conflicting positions about whether there's a logical trajectory from "Cold Fire" to "The Gift" to "Fury" (with stops along the way like "Persistence of Vision" and "Warlord").
I think the share of episodes between the characters in seasons 1-3 was fine. OK, I wouldn't mind more Kes episodes but she were involved in a lot of action even in episodes which weren't focused on her which was fine with me. The same for the other excellent characters.
In seasons 4-7 Voyager became the Seven Of Nine show with The Doctor and Janeway as co-starring while the other characters were disgracefully shoved in the background. It would have been better if Voyager had gone back to Earth in the last season 3 episode and then they could have started a new series called Star Trek:Seven Of Nine with Seven as the star on her owns hip because that's more and les what the show became. Then there wouldn't have been such crap as "The Gift", "Mortal Coil", "Endgame", the episode when they did rewrite the whole Voyager story so that it looked like Seven had been on the ship the whole time ( I can't remember the name now) and "The insulting s**t episode in season 6".
When it came to Kes's powers, during seasons 1-3 they were actually limited like Spock's. "The genie they couldn't control" was unleashed in the crappy episode "The Gift" because that was the easiest way to get rid of the character.
And no, I see no logical trajectory at all between Kes's episodes in seasons 1,2 and 3 and "The insulting s**t episode in season 6".
And I still haven't understood wy on Earth they brought back a character which they had shanefully deleted and taken every step necessary to make the viewers forget, only to humiliate, destroy and finally kill off (which was their original plan). :mad:
 
Characters' share of episodes:

Seasons 1-3 (66)

Janeway (14) 21.2%
Chakotay (7) 10.6%
doctor (6) 9.1%
B’Elanna and Tom (7) 10.6%
Neelix (6) 9.1%
Tuvok (5) 7.6%
Kes (5) 7.6%
Harry (4) 6.1%
ensemble (12) 18.2%

Seasons 4-7 (94)
Seven (20) 21.3 %
Janeway (15) 15.9%
doctor (15) 15.9%
B’Elanna and Tom (11) 11.7%
Chakotay (6) 6.4%
Neelix (6) 6.4%
Harry (5) 5.3%
Tuvok (4) 4.3%
Kes (2) 2.1%
ensemble (10) 10.6%

Comparing these numbers, you can see that Seven was the most used character in the final four seasons. And why not? You don't like her, but she was generally well loved. But these numbers also show who Seven's share of the stories hurt. Janeway's percentage goes down but stays well above everyone else's. The doctor's percentage and position relative to the other characters in fact goes up. So does B'Elanna and Tom's combined percentage. The biggest losers are Kes, Chakotay and Tuvok, all of whom arguably deserve it. Neelix and Harry also drop, but not precipitously. And the show does fewer true ensemble stories that don't focus on one or two characters particularly, but we still get some of those stories.
 
It would have been better if Voyager had gone back to Earth in the last season 3 episode and then they could have started a new series called Star Trek:Seven Of Nine with Seven as the star on her owns hip because that's more and les what the show became. Then there wouldn't have been such crap as "The Gift", "Mortal Coil", "Endgame", the episode when they did rewrite the whole Voyager story so that it looked like Seven had been on the ship the whole time ( I can't remember the name now) and "The insulting s**t episode in season 6".

How can you possibly blame "Mortal Coil" (one of my favorite episodes, by the way) on Seven of Nine? Yes, her nanoprobes kick started the situation (had she not been there, the writers would have used some other piece of treknobabble to do it), but she was barely a focus of the story proper. Do you hate the character of Seven of Nine so much that you can't stand her playing any role at all in an episode? Or have you just decided to illogically blame Seven for every episode you don't personally like.

And could you please stop referring to "Fury" by your word-for-word expression of vulgarity instead of the episode's title? It's neither clever, nor cute; and no one thinks you approve of an episode just because you're mature enough to refer to it by its proper title.

When it came to Kes's powers, during seasons 1-3 they were actually limited like Spock's.
The idea that Kes' could increase or grow her powers was presented at least as early as "Cold Fire." No one ever suggested that Spock could increase his powers.
 
How can you possibly blame "Mortal Coil" (one of my favorite episodes, by the way) on Seven of Nine? Yes, her nanoprobes kick started the situation (had she not been there, the writers would have used some other piece of treknobabble to do it), but she was barely a focus of the story proper. Do you hate the character of Seven of Nine so much that you can't stand her playing any role at all in an episode? Or have you just decided to illogically blame Seven for every episode you don't personally like.

And could you please stop referring to "Fury" by your word-for-word expression of vulgarity instead of the episode's title? It's neither clever, nor cute; and no one thinks you approve of an episode just because you're mature enough to refer to it by its proper title.

The idea that Kes' could increase or grow her powers was presented at least as early as "Cold Fire." No one ever suggested that Spock could increase his powers.
A little misunderstanding here. I don't blame "Mortal Coil" entirely of Seven Of Nine. I actually dislike the episode for other reasons, the cruelty of taking away neelix's hope to see his beloved ones in the afterlife.
However, here we do have Seven Of Nine as the superwoman whos Borg-probes and Borg knowledge could fix anything, from waking Neelix from the dead to fix the warp-core and Janeway's malfunctioning hair-dryer.

I don't hate Seven Of Nine and I don't blame Seven for any episode I don't like. There was a time when I really disliked the character but I don't do it anymore. That was stupid of me, I can admit that. I can accept the character and I understand that a lot of Voyager fans like her even if she isn't my absolute favorite among the main characters.

As for that episode in season 6, I hate it so much that I no longer refer to it by name, and by doing so degrading it to what it is. It should never have been made.

And when we are debating Seven Of Nine, not even in my worst anti-Seven days I would ever have dreamed of ruining the character the way those in charge ruined Kes in that episode in season 6.

The idea that Kes could increase or grow her powers was an idea which means that it wasn't definitely sure that she actually would develope her powers. And at least not to the ridiculous level in "The Gift".
 
Kes's out-of-character actions in "Fury" were explained/redeemed in the Voyager: String Theory novel series. Specifically book 2, by DSC writer Kirsten Beyer.
Maybe the "Fury" writers had tried to pull another Sela out of the hat.
 
However, here we do have Seven Of Nine as the superwoman whos Borg-probes and Borg knowledge could fix anything, from waking Neelix from the dead to fix the warp-core and Janeway's malfunctioning hair-dryer.
Well, it would be ridiculous to introduce a former Borg drone and make her a powerless, unknowledgeable character. The way I see it, making Seven good at stuff is only a problem if (a) it shuts down or dominates plotlines, which it didn't do in "Mortal Coil," since her Borg technology and knowledge sparked a plot line in which she was at most a supporting player; or (b) you can't stand the character to the point that you don't want to see her do anything of value.

The idea that Kes could increase or grow her powers was an idea which means that it wasn't definitely sure that she actually would develope her powers. And at least not to the ridiculous level in "The Gift".
I respect that position. Just because Kes' powers developed the way they did, there's no reason to say they could not have developed another way. As Spock says, "There are always possibilities."
 
Kes's out-of-character actions in "Fury" were explained/redeemed in the Voyager: String Theory novel series. Specifically book 2, by DSC writer Kirsten Beyer.
Maybe the "Fury" writers had tried to pull another Sela out of the hat.
There is a difference. They never destroyed Tasha Yar in the same way they ruined Kes. But they killed her off which was a bad thing to do. I didn't like it then and I didn't like it now.
As for Sela, that was a completly different character.
OK, Personally I find the whole Sela plot stupid, I never liked the idea of a daughter to a alternate universe Sela creating havoc in "the normal universe". Still no ultimate character destruction.
My personal theory is that those in charge didn't like that people was sending in requests for a Kes come-back and wanted to show the "finger" to those fans.

As for the String Theory books, I've read them and they give an acceptable solution to the problem. At least a good attempt to undo the damage made by the Voyager TV-series's writers and producers.

But my own "Coming Home-story" is better! :)
 
I must confess that, whilst I enjoyed Before & After very much, one of the aspects which did not go over well with me was Tom's being married to Old Kes and still looking for affection from her. I know it speaks well of him, that he was so devoted to her, as a husband. But ... she looked like she was a hundred and two. The perfect age for BINGO. And, with Linnis grown, with a child of her own, what could Tom, as a young Man, really hope to achieve by remaining married to Kes, at this point? Sure,. have him there, as a friend and former lover, but ... set him free. You know? Let him finish sewing his Wild Oats ...
 
I remember a girlfriend complaining once that I didn't see her as she was any more. 'That I was still in love with the girl she was when we met 2 years earlier. That I should care and complain that she had gotten fat... Which she really hadn't, but we'd both just crossed the line between teenager and twenty something, so significant changes were supposed to happen.
 
I never cared for Mind Games, myself. But as she was young, perhaps she learned a lesson from all of this. A most valuable lesson, indeed ....

Whilst I was not quite getting girlfriends hand-over-fist, as some of my peers were, I did notice - even early on - that there were plenty of hotties about in tight, short skirts and high heels. I also noticed that not all of them liked me ... but some girls, do. Not to say that I was indifferent towards 'losing' a girlfriend, but if it didn't work out ... these things happen. There was plenty more where she came from.

In High School, my friend John had this theory that women were Proof of God's Existence, as Nature couldn't have created anything so desirable on its own .... purely by chance. I'd like to think he was onto something ....
 
^ Survival is the goal of any species. The ones
that don't find their sexual partner desirable will not procreate much.
 
Women offer much for an hombre, do they not? Eye candy, pleasure, companionship, reproduction ... and, of course, the luxury of never having to buy shampoo.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top