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Jennifer Lien status

Don't make this personal. This is an opinion about a fictional character on a tv show. This is a thread about Jennifer Lein who plays Kes, we are discussing Jennifer Lien and Kes. It's not nitpicking, it's discussing the character and what I think are flaws. If you disagree that's fine, that's your opinion. You can like th character and I can dislike the character. There's no reason to get personal about it. I'm sorry that you find my opinion "creepy" but that's your issue. She is simply a fictional character that I am not too fond of.
I'm not making anything personal, I'm just a bit...........overwhelmed over the whole thing.
I'm not too fond of Braga and Fuller but I'm not yapping about it all the time and I can actually give them some credit for TNG and some of Braga's early work on Voyager.
 
I'm not making anything personal, I'm just a bit...........overwhelmed over the whole thing.
I'm not too fond of Braga and Fuller but I'm not yapping about it all the time and I can actually give them some credit for TNG and some of Braga's early work on Voyager.
Calling me creepy is rather personal. I'm not "yapping about it all the time" I am posting about Kes and Jennifer Lien in a thread that is about that. You can see that I also post in many other threads that have nothing to do with this.

And you do constantly insult the writers of the show. ;)

it's just a tv show :bolian:
 
Oh, that constant pecking, pecking, pecking on the character! :barf2:
You and Kelis must really, really dislike the character and the actress with your contant pecking on everything.
I'm amazed and actually a bit disgusted that you can spend so much time nitpicking Kes's (and Lien's) every move and find faults in everything she does.
Utterly destructive and creepy actually!
Once again I have to repeat my previous statement that Kes was an eager student and learned fast. According to the stardates, there were at least two months between the first episode (Catetaker) and the third (Time And Again) so I suspect that Kes, with her interest in learning did spend all of her time trying to learn as much as possible about the ship, space and almost everything.
Or it was all about sloppy writing.
Please stop the personal attacks. I'm discussing my views about the character. You said that Kes learned things after "Caretaker" that weren't shown onscreen. I responded that Kes did not seem as inquisitive as Neelix in "Caretaker." Feel free to agree, disagree or ignore. But please don't insult and proceed to repeat your initial point, which is irrelevant to my post about how Kes behaved in "Caretaker."
 
Please stop the personal attacks. I'm discussing my views about the character. You said that Kes learned things after "Caretaker" that weren't shown onscreen. I responded that Kes did not seem as inquisitive as Neelix in "Caretaker." Feel free to agree, disagree or ignore. But please don't insult and proceed to repeat your initial point, which is irrelevant to my post about how Kes behaved in "Caretaker."
I apologize if my comment was seen as a personal attack. It was definitely not meant to be that.
I'm just curious about the constant pecking on the character and the actress when the fault for any disadvantages that may be obviously are on the writers, not the actress or even the character itself.

As for your comment about that Kes didn't seem as inquisitive as Neelix in "Caretaker", there might be several reasons for that:

1. Kes is a different person than Neelix. Calmer and not so talkative. Considering the fact that she just had been rescued from the Kazon and considering that the Voyager crew were in the middle of a situation, she might have found it wise not to start asking questions about this and that at that point, instead waiting until things had calmed down.

2. The focus on Kes in "Caretaker" were on other things she contributed to, like helping Janeway and the others try to find Kim and Torres. Wouldn't it have looked ridiculous if she had started poking around in sickbay shortly after being rescued from the Kazon, constantly interrupting Janeway and asking The Doctor about this device here or that computer there. If she had done that, she would probably been criticized and pecked on for that too,

3. Or we can simply blame it on sloppy writing.
 
Kes grew up with Replicators in the Caretaker's bunker.

Her tech back home, was superior to the Federation.

Not only should she not have been amazed, but Kes should have been sniggering.
 
I apologize if my comment was seen as a personal attack. It was definitely not meant to be that.
I'm just curious about the constant pecking on the character and the actress when the fault for any disadvantages that may be obviously are on the writers, not the actress or even the character itself.

As for your comment about that Kes didn't seem as inquisitive as Neelix in "Caretaker", there might be several reasons for that:

1. Kes is a different person than Neelix. Calmer and not so talkative. Considering the fact that she just had been rescued from the Kazon and considering that the Voyager crew were in the middle of a situation, she might have found it wise not to start asking questions about this and that at that point, instead waiting until things had calmed down.

2. The focus on Kes in "Caretaker" were on other things she contributed to, like helping Janeway and the others try to find Kim and Torres. Wouldn't it have looked ridiculous if she had started poking around in sickbay shortly after being rescued from the Kazon, constantly interrupting Janeway and asking The Doctor about this device here or that computer there. If she had done that, she would probably been criticized and pecked on for that too,

3. Or we can simply blame it on sloppy writing.
It's not "obvious". Where the fault lies is a matter of opinion. You love the character so you are blind to any fault and ignore anything other than praise. But there are those who see the faults. No character is perfect.
 
Kes grew up with Replicators in the Caretaker's bunker.

Her tech back home, was superior to the Federation.

Not only should she not have been amazed, but Kes should have been sniggering.
sniggering would have been better than what we got. That would have been an emotion. Something better than what we had IMO
 
But Janeway after Before and After did not get what we got.

Half way through the intake interview Kes spins out and starts screaming about Time travel... Then goes back to regular present day Kes and wonders why every one is looking at her funny.

After seeing that temporal tantrum, a Captain would have to be an insane moron not to have the little alien under armed guard all the while she is crew on Voyager for the next 8 years.
 
As for your comment about that Kes didn't seem as inquisitive as Neelix in "Caretaker", there might be several reasons for that:

1. Kes is a different person than Neelix. Calmer and not so talkative. Considering the fact that she just had been rescued from the Kazon and considering that the Voyager crew were in the middle of a situation, she might have found it wise not to start asking questions about this and that at that point, instead waiting until things had calmed down.

2. The focus on Kes in "Caretaker" were on other things she contributed to, like helping Janeway and the others try to find Kim and Torres. Wouldn't it have looked ridiculous if she had started poking around in sickbay shortly after being rescued from the Kazon, constantly interrupting Janeway and asking The Doctor about this device here or that computer there. If she had done that, she would probably been criticized and pecked on for that too
You have a point, but if Kes had been more inquisitive and childlike, she wouldn't have been able to apply as much common sense in those situations, and her sense of wonder may have gotten the better of her. When Neelix beams aboard, the situation is arguably not as tense, but it is serious, and yet he just can't help himself wondering at the advanced Federations like Mr. Vulcan. And I suspect it's that kind of silly childishness that does draw the criticism (if not the "pecking," whatever that is) of Neelix detractors, but I love him for it.
 
I thought Kes should have been MORE innocent and niave. They lived basically in a bubble with no knowledge of the outside world, other species, or anything other than their own little world. They didn't develop technology or seek to learn anything on their own. They lived by what the Caretaker provided them and were taught not to question it. Kes should have been in a constant state of awe by everything she saw around her, the technology, and the other species and cultures. I've always felt that if there was a different actress in the role Kes could have been a better character....of course she could have been worse too.

I think that it's clear that Kes was an outlier among her people. IIRC, we didn't hear about examples of others who ventured to the surface, or very, very few over time. Aside from asserting her will in seeking out the unknown, she was resolute in speaking/thinking openly against what one could reasonably assume represented TPTB, namely toady Toscat. Now one can bring up the Suspirians, as an example of other Ocampans who left the home world. But were we told if all of the original group, went with Mrs. Caretaker of their own accord, for similar motivations as Kes, or perhaps they were removed by her to see how she could restore the abilities of the race that had been deracinated through stagnation? Let me know if I have that wrong.

Aside from her other gifts, the exemplar of which I think was her great and manifest empathy, I believe what addresses your supposition about how she should have naturally reacted to the world of the 24th century Federation, was the fact that she was very mature in how her intellect responded to totally new environments and circumstances. She didn't innately know how to operate equipment and systems. She received technical/scientific instruction from the Doctor, Paris and Torres, and I would think likely from Kim, Janeway, and Tuvok. Hell, it would make sense to me that just about anyone she asked to show her the operations of a system or equipment, would have been more than willing to do so. It wouldn't surprise me that Janeway, knowing what an extraordinarily gifted individual was in their midst, would have encouraged the crew to do just that. So while I'm not saying that Kes automatically understood the substance of things as she was introduced to them, as opposed to Neelix, she did have the ability, IMO, to intuitively apprehend the form and functionality of devices that did things she had never seen before and straightaway accept and integrate that understanding. I don't think the element of surprise or incredulity would often enter her mind. She realized that obviously Voyager was an example of a civilization that, in fact was the essence of what she sought for herself, questing, exploring, and advancing, in direct opposition to the static culture from which she'd come. I think she did find that being on Voyager and all that it exposed her to, was indeed something like a wonderland, but the intellectual rigour and determination that were so integral to her personality, prevented her from encountering it, stumbling around in gapeing, wide eyed incredulity and incomprehension. I think it was exactly the fact that she had such an immediate appreciation of things, was what contributed very significantly to her distinctiveness as a character, whereas her acting in the way that you suggest, wouldn't have served any good purpose in allowing Ms. Lien to create such a memorable, singular, and touching character.

By the way, you have to be the first poster I've read, who in the explanation of their dislike or disdain of the character and/or actress, have described Kes as a knave, well almost...LOL

Kes grew up with Replicators in the Caretaker's bunker.

Her tech back home, was superior to the Federation.

Not only should she not have been amazed, but Kes should have been sniggering.

Whether you're being in earnest or not, I don't think there's much real foundation for that assertion, not from what we saw anyway. I kind of doubt that Banjo Man would have made the Ocampans privy to any of his advanced geegaws, given that he saw his way of expiating his and the missus' booboo, was effective and had stood the test of time. I think I've long had the impression of most of what we see of the Ocampans' biosphere, is of a huge shopping enclave, like the mall of America times 10, or a super atrium of a 70's or 80's vintage Omni. But precious little evidence of advanced technology around. Thinking about it, what the hell would they need it for?

sniggering would have been better than what we got. That would have been an emotion. Something better than what we had IMO

I think the case for maintaining that Kes displayed the emotional range of a one note, montonic robot, is far at variance with what she actually displayed, for all to see, and what one, I believe can very reasonably intuit about what was going on her inner life, conflicts and uncertainties, that for the most part she didn't display outwardly. Kes is quite demonstrative in Time and Again, Parturition, Elogium, Twisted, Cold Fire, certainly Tuvix, and a number of others. What is often the most poignant aspect to Ms. Lien's abilities is the quiet (read for many, boring) way that she exemplifies a supernally caring, generous, and unfailingly kind individual, the aspects that truly define her as an indisputably empathic being. Now if one doesn't find such examples particularly convincing examples of someone with much in the way of acting chops, well that's a different argument. I'm not a dramatic critic, nor do pretend to play one here or anywhere else. But my impression, is that of a superbly instinctive, unaffected, and unafraid performer, who even in the slightest of touches, a la her transformation when Tuvok makes contact with her in Warlord as well as set pieces, especially in the instance of her genuinely, and without guile, dispassionately trying to reach the intellect of Bad Doc in Darkling, in what I find, one of the most remarkable pieces of dialogue that I'm personally familiar with in the Star Trek canon (admitting my near unfamiliarity with DS9 and likewise (or forgetfulness) with TNG. I don't think that the high praise that a number of her castmates lavished on her talents since her departure from the show, up until the present day, is anything other than genuine and meaningfully articulated. There would be no plausible reason for any of them to offer such hosannas with the idea that they are rendering kindness for someone who has fallen off the face of the earth. I suspect that it would be quite likely that the idea that Lien would even become cognizant of such support, would be rather minimal, given what the others may know of the isolation, hard times, and the lack, to my knowledge, that any of them even have any contact with her at all.

But Janeway after Before and After did not get what we got.

Half way through the intake interview Kes spins out and starts screaming about Time travel... Then goes back to regular present day Kes and wonders why every one is looking at her funny.

After seeing that temporal tantrum, a Captain would have to be an insane moron not to have the little alien under armed guard all the while she is crew on Voyager for the next 8 years.

While I don't dismiss that timeline as being illusory or having been extinguished by the Doctor's anti-chroniton polio encasement, I have found it increasingly difficult over time to see the episode, although a wonderful forum for Lien's skills, as really being developmentally significant, as opposed to the show runners permitting a glimpse of what Kes could have become, if, as may have been becoming an increasing likely, if not certain, determination, that quite soon she was going to be getting the push.
 
Mall of America, sure. Kes didn't have to know how anything worked, to know that when she ever had asked the food machine to give her food, that food appears. Privileged and entitled like a princess?

Neelix on the other hand, 300 years behind Janeway maybe, probably had a basic understanding of whatever food making tech he was playing with on his own ship, that couldn't synthesize or replicate water, and it's likely that he could make simple repairs, or install one of his food makers without killing himself. His tech was inferior, but he was the master of it.
 
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You have a point, but if Kes had been more inquisitive and childlike, she wouldn't have been able to apply as much common sense in those situations, and her sense of wonder may have gotten the better of her. When Neelix beams aboard, the situation is arguably not as tense, but it is serious, and yet he just can't help himself wondering at the advanced Federations like Mr. Vulcan. And I suspect it's that kind of silly childishness that does draw the criticism (if not the "pecking," whatever that is) of Neelix detractors, but I love him for it.
I really like Neelix too just because he was the person he was with his flaws and strenghts. You just have to watch "Jetrel" and read the chapters about him in "Pathways" to start liking him. :techman:
 
It's not "obvious". Where the fault lies is a matter of opinion. You love the character so you are blind to any fault and ignore anything other than praise. But there are those who see the faults. No character is perfect.
Not exactly true. I can see faults in every character and I appreciate critical discussions about any favorite I got. But when it comes to constant pecking and nitpicking to find every little possible fault, real or not in one character or other favorite I have, then I stand up and defend whatever character or favorite it is. That's natural.
The Lynx may be a tame housecat nowadays bet he can still bite if necessary! :angel:
 
I didn't see it as pecking or nitpicking. It's just posters talking about what they observed and their personal opinions. I like Tom Paris and think he's a great character but I understand if someone else thinks he's an overgrown adolescent who just happened to have to be born into the right family and was lucky to have his position on Voyager. I don't feel the need to defend him at every turn because in the end they are entitled to their opinions and to discuss what they believe to be true. They might well 'hate' the character but that doesn't affect my enjoyment of the show. Everyone doesn't need to 'like' him or agree with me. Just enjoy what YOU enjoy about the character. These posters aren't 'wrong' because they disagree with you on matters that are not clearly defined on the show.
 
I didn't see it as pecking or nitpicking. It's just posters talking about what they observed and their personal opinions. I like Tom Paris and think he's a great character but I understand if someone else thinks he's an overgrown adolescent who just happened to have to be born into the right family and was lucky to have his position on Voyager. I don't feel the need to defend him at every turn because in the end they are entitled to their opinions and to discuss what they believe to be true. They might well 'hate' the character but that doesn't affect my enjoyment of the show. Everyone doesn't need to 'like' him or agree with me. Just enjoy what YOU enjoy about the character. These posters aren't 'wrong' because they disagree with you on matters that are not clearly defined on the show.
You're absolutely right!
Just me and my lousy temper. Unfortunately the old wildcat isn't totally domesticated yet.
But I'm working on it! :techman:
 
I can't help but wonder how the show would have turned out if Harry Kim was written off and Kes remained.

Indeed, Garrett Wang was supposed to be the one fired, not Jennifer Lien. The execs changed their minds when he was named one of People's 50 Hottest Actors in 1997.

Year of Hell was supposed to be the season 3 cliffhanger, leading into an arc in season 4. This is why there was a fair amount of Kes development leading up to the season finale. She was supposed to take on a larger role. Indeed, she was supposed to be the one guiding and nurturing Seven's humanity along with Janeway, as well as continue as the Doctor's assistant (which Tom Paris wound up doing).

Garrett Wang was disliked by the execs because he was considered lazy. Late for meetings, rehearsals, filming. Plus, he was a weak actor.

Everyone's contract - except Mulgrew's - was done at the end of season 3.

They had already signed Jeri Ryan, and the execs didn't want the cast to grow to 10 members, so someone had to go..., what didn't stop producers to hire 4 young actors from s6, who served to nothing, except the one who played Icheb, who was kept until the end of the series.

There's some mystery behind why Lien herself was fired. Rumor has it she developed an allergy to the glue used for her ears, which is why she changed hair styles. There are some other rumors, as well, such as drug use on her part and her rebuking the advances of a guest star somehow related to one of the execs. No one knows for sure.
 
If they had fired Jennifer for a medical reason, she could have sued Star Trek, and bought that empire to its knees. I never thought anything of the allergy explanation for getting rid of that ####ing awful wig.
 
If they had fired Jennifer for a medical reason, she could have sued Star Trek, and bought that empire to its knees. I never thought anything of the allergy explanation for getting rid of that ####ing awful wig.

I think that it was a false rumor too. They just need to make room for Jeri Ryan. It would have been nice to see a more mature Kes in charge of Seven, in her quest of individuality. Instead of that, we got a Harry Kim, invited to undress by the newcomer! :devil:
 
I can't help but wonder how the show would have turned out if Harry Kim was written off and Kes remained.

Indeed, Garrett Wang was supposed to be the one fired, not Jennifer Lien. The execs changed their minds when he was named one of People's 50 Hottest Actors in 1997.

Year of Hell was supposed to be the season 3 cliffhanger, leading into an arc in season 4. This is why there was a fair amount of Kes development leading up to the season finale. She was supposed to take on a larger role. Indeed, she was supposed to be the one guiding and nurturing Seven's humanity along with Janeway, as well as continue as the Doctor's assistant (which Tom Paris wound up doing).

Garrett Wang was disliked by the execs because he was considered lazy. Late for meetings, rehearsals, filming. Plus, he was a weak actor.

Everyone's contract - except Mulgrew's - was done at the end of season 3.

They had already signed Jeri Ryan, and the execs didn't want the cast to grow to 10 members, so someone had to go..., what didn't stop producers to hire 4 young actors from s6, who served to nothing, except the one who played Icheb, who was kept until the end of the series.

There's some mystery behind why Lien herself was fired. Rumor has it she developed an allergy to the glue used for her ears, which is why she changed hair styles. There are some other rumors, as well, such as drug use on her part and her rebuking the advances of a guest star somehow related to one of the execs. No one knows for sure.
The rumors are the result of the lack of information from everyone involved in this affair.

First we were told that Jennifer "left of her own free will". Then, when rumors about her firing started, those in charge changed their story to "Oh, we couldn't come up with stories for the character" which wasn't the truth since they had no problems coming up with good stories about the character up to the last minutes of her departure. Then they spiced it with comments about "mutual agreement" which always makes me cringe because everytime those two words show up, it's foul play involved. Then it started to be clear for everyone that the reason for the firing was that they wanted to bring in a "sexy babe" to attract male teenage viewers and that one of the original main characters had to go. Harry Kim was chosen but when a silly inside poll in a glossy magazine showed him among "The 50 most handsome" those in charge changed their minds and Kes was deleted instead.

I can't understand why they couldn't have 10 main characters. They had no problems to make Naomi, Vorik and Icheb appear in each and every episode, almost as if they were main characters and I'm sure that no one of those actors worked for free. The same with the Borg kids. And did those characters actually add anything to the show?

As for "the drug rumor", it actually started about another actor and "spilled over" to Jennifer Lien when she was kicked out.

I would also like to point out that there have been no evidence at all for any drug use. When it comes to Jennifer's latest problems, the only reports in that direction is an arrest for DUI from March this year.

She did develope allergic problems in season 3 with the glue which was used to fit the Ocampa ears to her head and her change of hairstyle was the result of that. Still no reason for firing anyone for a problem which could be solved with longer hair or with using some other stuff to attach those ears.

As for the rumor about "Jennifer rebuking the advances of a guest star somehow related to one of the execs", that rumor has showed up now and then during all those years but has never been confirmed by anyone.
 
If they had fired Jennifer for a medical reason, she could have sued Star Trek, and bought that empire to its knees. I never thought anything of the allergy explanation for getting rid of that ####ing awful wig.
I liked the short hairstyle. It was a sort of trademark for the character.
OK, she looked great in long hair too but a part of her personality dissapeared. She became more like any other ordinary female character in a TV-series.
 
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