Jennifer Lien status
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Beautiful is not a personality trait. And I think the writers tried to make her strong willed and determined to balance out her inherent gentleness, because it would be no fun to write or watch a completely defenseless pushover. Personally, I rarely saw much in the character to convince me of the writers' frequent assertions (put in various characters' mouths) that Kes was all that strong willed or determined. It's kind of like how the writers of Next Generation went out of their way to have every other character tell us how smart and well liked Riker was.
I'd say Kes' core personality traits, the ones she regularly demonstrates, are gentleness (covers your correct observations that she's nice and friendly) and curiosity (her bravery manifests itself in her curious desires to try unfamiliar things). Well, why is she so incredibly gentle? Because she's too young and innocent to be jaded by experience. For instance, she just automatically accepts the doctor as a person because she's not weighed down with the other characters' learned preconceptions about personhood. And why is she so insatiably curious? Because she's had so little experience and thus thirsts for more (arguably, she also wants to cram as much novelty as possible into such a short life). Her curiosity is also related to her heightened intelligence, a trait the writers had to give her (whether or not they always sold it) because only members of an unusually intelligent, knowledge-receptive species could mature so quickly.
Again, different writers of a different story could create a gentle, curious intelligent character who is not short-lived. But Kes is gentle, curious and intelligent because she's short-lived.
As I've said at great length here, many, many times, such a characterization, while easy to qualify from a surface and facile perspective, isn't accurate to the reality of what the character displayed from the pilot onward. From her first steps on Voyager, when she refutes Neelix in sickbay, in a clear and knowing statement of what both of them owe to their new benefactors to her cogent and on point disquisition with Toscat, she illustrated a surety and wisdom, far beyond her years (human or Ocampan). The first episode in which she had a prominent role to play, Time and Again, Kes assuredly, but in her gentle manner, maintained and ultimately proved what her nascent expression of psychic abilities told her was right, despite Tuvok's logical surmises of the fallacy of the premises that she unveiled. Was she naive? Well, one can honestly cite her lack of perceptiveness about the full nature of Tom's feelings for her. I think one can justifiably peg that non-recognition to her lack of relationship experience to contrast with what was, to our knowledge, her initial romantic experience, with Neelix.
As for being easily manipulated, I suppose a prime example that could be pointed to, would be how she responded to Tanis' ministrations. Certainly she was captivated and aroused by the overwhelming promise that was tantalizingly dangled in front of her. But despite that allure that she felt, her ability to distinguish what ran against the grain of her core beliefs, and then to use those enhanced powers to defeat the malign intentions of Suspiria (which weren't hidden from her vision) and Tanis clearly illustrate, IMO, that the impression of Kes' naivety and being prone to an innate nature leading her to be truly swayed from her path, is illusory. Pointless rebellion? If you're referring to the events leading to the sundering of the relationship with Neelix or the attraction to the idea of a life beyond Voyager, with Zahir, I would argue that despite her preternatural and instinctive gifts, Kes, like anyone else, was not perfectly formed from the beginning, and these incidents were simply reflective of an awakening realization that changes in her thinking of how she might desire her future to unfold, led to decisions that were not rash, although with the former, perhaps not really properly presaged. Simply put, Kes was not an ethereal being, resistant to the push and pull of the influences as she aged, that I think can commonly be categorized as growing up. Additionally, it isn't outside the realm of possibility, that Darkling was meant as a prefiguring of her departure from the show, or at least introducing the strain of thought that such a move might be made to appear as a logical outcome, even if, as I believe, the decision wasn't "forced" until Wang's totally irrelevant, but serendipitous media gift.
I certainly can't think of any incidents in which Kes truly acted without purpose, as Andrew forcefully pointed out, or out of pique or genuine malefaction. Fury? Well that can be parsed in a number of ways, but I take it as someone, nearly unparalleled abilities aside, who likely encountered a number of experiences that were frustrating or even crushing (the substance of which we don't really know) to what Kes had such an unequivocally powerful anticipation of moving to a plane of existence that instead would be wondrous, fascinating, and illuminating. Those abilities that were nearly without comparison to any other being in the known universe, may very well have greatly exacerbated her sensitivity to such dismay and disappointments, so that what should have been a certain recollection of how such a misadventure started, became twisted and perverted by an irresistible bitterness and unthinking urge to make things right.
Yet again, a judgement that I think is not supported by simply a bit deeper observation of what was actually depicted, or some reflection that wouldn't need to be very profound. Given that her indefatigable determination and steely determination were evident from her introduction, there was really nothing developed that was a counterweight to her genuine openness and acceptance of others. Above, I offered examples of what you find quite lacking. There are many others. When Janeway and Chakotay's fate appeared to be sealed in Resolutions, regardless of Kim's futile remonstrations and similar sentiments among the crew, who, with direct simplicity, but unmistakeable purpose, rather expeditiously quelled Tuvok's resolve? I don't know if you are placing the actions displayed in Warlord, as part of another category, but clearly the accretion of pressure and resistance that Kes ultimately broke Tieran with, would have to be characterized as a measure of her dedication to willfulness in pursuit of defeating a being of such a contrary nature, that with his dangling of blandishments, just as with Tanis, amounted to nothing. Her focus, drive, and perspicacity certainly can't be gainsayed in Persistence of Vision, when just as validly in comparison with the efforts of other characters in various episodes, her actions were clearly responsible for saving the crew and ship from certain doom. Look with a unjaundiced eye, and you can see such examples extending to the vast majority of features in which she had anything more than a token presence.
As for your example of her taking up the cause of the Doctor, from nearly the first time she deals with him, I would say that what she displays is not the lack of life experience in her perception of him, but a prescience of what the potential of his character actually had to offer, that once again, after making a plain, but clearly honed entreaty to Janeway, initiated a process that inevitably over time would make clear to the crew that this creation that was thought of, apparently by all others, although compelled to be placed into a vital role amongst them, as nothing more than an ersatz shadow that merited or even displayed a hint of the promise that would make him an indispensable and genuinely valued member of the Voyager family. Playing the role of such a catalyst, would hardly seem to me to mark Kes as inexperienced and naive, but rather endowed with an inherent accepting receptiveness to, in this case an example of the Other, that speaks louder than words to her foreknowledge, compassion, and moving generosity.
I don't think you can outright deny Kes' innocence and inexperience, but I do admit that those qualities were coupled with a sort of instinctive wisdom that manifested itself from time to time--an instinct I suspect the writers gave her because without it, she'd have been unable to function as a two-year old adult, so I come back to my point that the character's lifespan was determinative in the development of her personality.
Given Kes' instinctual wisdom (at some times and in some areas), my use of the word "naive," with its pejorative connotations, was probably less well chosen than the word "innocent" would have been. But it is too bad that innocence itself is sometimes treated pejoratively. I stand by my interpretation of Kes' friendship with the doctor. It works because she's unburdened with cultural preconceptions of personhood. And that's a good thing.
Given Kes' instinctual wisdom (at some times and in some areas), my use of the word "naive," with its pejorative connotations, was probably less well chosen than the word "innocent" would have been. But it is too bad that innocence itself is sometimes treated pejoratively. I stand by my interpretation of Kes' friendship with the doctor. It works because she's unburdened with cultural preconceptions of personhood. And that's a good thing.
I thought Kes should have been MORE innocent and niave. They lived basically in a bubble with no knowledge of the outside world, other species, or anything other than their own little world. They didn't develop technology or seek to learn anything on their own. They lived by what the Caretaker provided them and were taught not to question it. Kes should have been in a constant state of awe by everything she saw around her, the technology, and the other species and cultures. I've always felt that if there was a different actress in the role Kes could have been a better character....of course she could have been worse too.
You can't blame the actress for what must be regarded as sloppy writing!
During her three years as acast member, Jennifer did prove over and ober and over again that she was a terrific actress. During the same time the writers proved that they were........well, rather sloppy sometimes.
Besides that, Kes was an eager student and learned fast. According to the stardates, there were at least two months between the first episode (Catetaker) and the third (Time And Again) so I suspect that Kes, with her interest in learning did spend all of her time trying to learn as much as possible about the ship, space and almost everything. That may also have been one of Neelix's reasons to be annoyed with her, she spent all her time learning.
A matter of opinion. I have no issue with the writers. I enjoyed their work and don't think they were sloppy. I think they could have written better for a more talented actress. Just my opinion
You have a point. Honestly, Neelix was more childlike and enthusiastic about novelty than was Kes-- "What, what exactly, what exactly does all this, all this do?"--"Do these, er, replicators make clothing as well?"--no doubt why I like his character so much better.
Exactly. She came aboard Voyager and acted like it was no big deal. After living underground, a warp capable space ship, replicators, holodecks, advanced medical technology..it seemed like nothing to her. No big deal. Even just one instance of her seeming amazed by something would have been enough. As you said Neelix had more awe over the technology than Kes did.
I've been watching VOY with my daughter and we're on Season 6. We just watched fury last night and,well, I'm in the camp of people that kinda liked the episode. I liked the Kes character as well.
As I wrote in my previous post, there was a long time between the events in the first three episodes. And I assume that she spent a lot of time "off screen" learning and exploring.
If that wasn't visible on the TV screen, then it was the writers fault.
Besides that, the Ocampa did have a lot of technology in their underground city too.
Assume what you wish, and so will I. The only time we saw the underground city it did not look very advanced at all. They certainly didn't have holodecks or warp drive or such advanced medical technology. They might have had some primitive food replicator that handed out bowls of goop.
Love that you're watching with your daughter. If I ever have children I would love to watch all of Trek with them
Just compare Neelix' very first time on the ship, in "Caretaker," with Kes' first time on board, and you can see the difference in their characters.
Exactly. As soon as Neelix is beamed aboard he is beyond amazed. He wants to know what everything does. We also see in his quarters that he was experimenting with the replicators and loving a water bath since he didn't have access to water. He was living it up! The first time we see Kes on Voyager she had no real reaction, she actied like it was mundane, like she was going to work or something she does every day.
In fact, I've watched almost all the series with her at this point. I started in about three years ago, when she was 7 yrs old, with Enterprise, then TNG, DS9 and by the end of the year we'll be done with Voyager too. I'm sure she'll get sad when it finishes, just as she's done for each of the other series.Love that you're watching with your daughter. If I ever have children I would love to watch all of Trek with them
If you're lucky, you have a child that loves ST as much as you. I know I'm lucky ;-)
Oh, that constant pecking, pecking, pecking on the character!
You and Kelis must really, really dislike the character and the actress with your contant pecking on everything.
I'm amazed and actually a bit disgusted that you can spend so much time nitpicking Kes's (and Lien's) every move and find faults in everything she does.
Utterly destructive and creepy actually!
Once again I have to repeat my previous statement that Kes was an eager student and learned fast. According to the stardates, there were at least two months between the first episode (Catetaker) and the third (Time And Again) so I suspect that Kes, with her interest in learning did spend all of her time trying to learn as much as possible about the ship, space and almost everything.
Or it was all about sloppy writing.
I don't want to get personal, but I see you're accusing someone of being creepy. An examination of your posts might lead someone to believe you have an unnatural affinity for the Kes character or Jennifer Lien.Oh, that constant pecking, pecking, pecking on the character!
You and Kelis must really, really dislike the character and the actress with your contant pecking on everything.
I'm amazed and actually a bit disgusted that you can spend so much time nitpicking Kes's (and Lien's) every move and find faults in everything she does.
Utterly destructive and creepy actually!
Once again I have to repeat my previous statement that Kes was an eager student and learned fast. According to the stardates, there were at least two months between the first episode (Catetaker) and the third (Time And Again) so I suspect that Kes, with her interest in learning did spend all of her time trying to learn as much as possible about the ship, space and almost everything.
Or it was all about sloppy writing.
I seem to remember a joke about a pot and a kettle... now how did that go?
Don't make this personal. This is an opinion about a fictional character on a tv show. This is a thread about Jennifer Lein who plays Kes, we are discussing Jennifer Lien and Kes. It's not nitpicking, it's discussing the character and what I think are flaws. If you disagree that's fine, that's your opinion. You can like th character and I can dislike the character. There's no reason to get personal about it. I'm sorry that you find my opinion "creepy" and "destructive" but that's your issue. She is simply a fictional character that I am not too fond of.Oh, that constant pecking, pecking, pecking on the character!
You and Kelis must really, really dislike the character and the actress with your contant pecking on everything.
I'm amazed and actually a bit disgusted that you can spend so much time nitpicking Kes's (and Lien's) every move and find faults in everything she does.
Utterly destructive and creepy actually!
Once again I have to repeat my previous statement that Kes was an eager student and learned fast. According to the stardates, there were at least two months between the first episode (Catetaker) and the third (Time And Again) so I suspect that Kes, with her interest in learning did spend all of her time trying to learn as much as possible about the ship, space and almost everything.
Or it was all about sloppy writing.
That's great! I got into Star Trek because my father was into it and we watched it together. So I hope to continue that
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