Jennifer Lien status

[KelisThePoet]

Compare that with B'Elanna deliberately breaking Carey's nose, almost killing him. Is B'Elanna considered a bad person with bad behavior because of that? No! But Kes can be dissected, analyzed and nitpicked.

Tanis tempted Kes to burn the flowers in the Hydroponics Bay. Was it Kes's fault? No, it was Tanis's fault

Partially, it's just the creepiness factor of otherworldly powers. Whatever the ethics of throwing a punch, I'd much rather be around someone who throws punches than someone who can boil blood and incinerate things with her mind. At least a punch is something familiar and understandable from which I know how to run away.

Of course, one could argue that Star Trek is a show all about exploring the unfamiliar and learning not to fear things we don't understand. Yet, for all that philosophy, beings with extraordinary mental powers in Star Trek are typically presented as dark and creepy threats. "Return to Tomorrow" is an interesting case, because Kirk makes this impassioned speech about trusting the noncorporeal aliens who want to play with the crew's minds. He rhetorically connects uncanny mental powers with the ethos of exploration. But the noncorporeal aliens (at least one of them) turn out to be a threat, and in retrospect, Kirk's eloquent speech comes off rather naive.

I suppose "The Gift" might be Voyager's best example of a story that connected the value of exploring to the development of mental powers. Than "Fury" undid all the work done in "The Gift."

 

[2takesfrakes]

Self Control isn't very prevalent amongst races with superpowers. Kevin the douwd from TNG's "The Survivors" is a good case in point. In a moment of Mental Anguish, he killed every individual of an entire race of alien being. Around such a person, one watches their P's & Q's. One walks on eggshells. One ... submits.

 

[exocomp]

Self Control isn't very prevalent amongst races with superpowers. Kevin the douwd from TNG's "The Survivors" is a good case in point. In a moment of Mental Anguish, he killed every individual of an entire race of alien being. Around such a person, one watches their P's & Q's. One walks on eggshells. One ... submits.

I think Q is even more powerful, yet that never kept Picard from talking down to him. Q could have turned him into a frog without breaking a sweat.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Right, the difference being, though, that pain was alien to Q. Whether it be physical, or emotional - in fact, he never even had an emotional "world" to speak of, other than annoyance at and arrogance towards Humanity. This seems to have been contradicted, actually, by the revelation of his Better Half, Ms. Q, whom we met in an episode of Voyager. But until then, it seemed pretty clear that Q was interested in challenging Humanity, rather than bullying it, really. He could've just snapped his fingers and handed Picard a "bible" that would set Humanity on a straight course, but reading is too subjective a thing.

For Picard to understand what Q was trying to get at, he had to jump through the hoops Q challenged him with. Then, there's that "Ah-HA!" moment that reading a list of instruction can't guarantee you. Kevin Uxbridge, on the other hand DID have an emotional "world." And when aliens destroyed it, there was nothing, really, to keep him from wishing everyone dead. Unfortunately, his wishes really do come true and - apparently - there was no way, really, to reverse it. So, with Kevin, you do kind of have to mind your manners. Tell him his wife is nasty looking and he might hurl you into space, without a pressure suit ...

 

[Sophie74656]

The Ocampa lifespan was a mistake from the writers.
They tried to come up with something new which didn't work.
They should have realized that a species with such a short lifetime could never develope in to anything more than primates.

As for Dracula, he could actually be seen as equivalent to a drug addict. He needs blood desperately, therefore he's doing the same things all over and over again.

I guess it's easier for him today when he can see a doctor and get a prescription, then go to the local hospital and get his daily bottle of blood from the bloodbank.

I thought the lifespan was interesting and unique. We often see species in Trek that outlive humans. It was an interesting change to see a species that doesn't. As far as evolution, there is no reason that with a short lifespan they couldn't continue to evolve. Though I maintain that it was the Caretaker keeping them at a shorter lifespan and controling their reproduction.

Off topic but your Dracula comparison is off I think. He's not addicted to blood, he needs it for survival, he can't live on anything else. That's not an addiction, that's survival.

 

[exocomp]

I thought the lifespan was interesting and unique. We often see species in Trek that outlive humans. It was an interesting change to see a species that doesn't. As far as evolution, there is no reason that with a short lifespan they couldn't continue to evolve. Though I maintain that it was the Caretaker keeping them at a shorter lifespan and controling their reproduction.

Off topic but your Dracula comparison is off I think. He's not addicted to blood, he needs it for survival, he can't live on anything else. That's not an addiction, that's survival.

It would have been nice if they had done something with that shorter lifespan idea instead of what we got. If we had seen Kes evolve rapidly over the months that she spent on Voyager for example, starting with a girlish behavior for example and ending being as mature of not more than Janeway herself. If they had done that I would have been favorably impressed, however in hindsight it was unrealistic to expect that from these writers, obviously.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Self Control isn't very prevalent amongst races with superpowers. Kevin the douwd from TNG's "The Survivors" is a good case in point. In a moment of Mental Anguish, he killed every individual of an entire race of alien being. Around such a person, one watches their P's & Q's. One walks on eggshells. One ... submits.

Sounds like that kid from "Charlie X."

 

[Sophie74656]

It would have been nice if they had done something with that shorter lifespan idea instead of what we got. If we had seen Kes evolve rapidly over the months that she spent on Voyager for example, starting with a girlish behavior for example and ending being as mature of not more than Janeway herself. If they had done that I would have been favorably impressed, however in hindsight it was unrealistic to expect that from these writers, obviously.

I'm not insulting the writers because I think most of what they've done is wonderful, and I know I could never do better myself. Personally I think their hands were tied with Kes because of the limitations of the actress.

But I do agree that I think it would have been interesting to see her evolve. Perhaps start out as a younger looking child and we could see her mature into adulthood through old age. I understand this would be difficult to film as you would probably need multiple actresses, but from the point of view of the story I think that would be interesting to see.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Kes' character evolution (perhaps using different actresses) over a short time span is the kind of thing that would be more practical to shoot and easier to write consistently as a movie, or in the context of Trek, as an episode. I think the trouble with Kes was trying to adapt her species' concept to a recurring character written by various people over the course of several seasons.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hmmmm.

Maybe they always thought about firing Jennifer on the bridge to season four?

Imagine Jeri playing a slightly more mature Kes in season 4, and then for the final year Susanna Thompson playing and even more slightly mature Kes, before in an alternate no Borg Endgame, they wind her clock back, and there's Jennifer again.

 

[Sophie74656]

Hmmmm.

Maybe they always thought about firing Jennifer on the bridge to season four?

Imagine Jeri playing a slightly more mature Kes in season 4, and then for the final year Susanna Thompson playing and even more slightly mature Kes, before in an alternate no Borg Endgame, they wind her clock back, and there's Jennifer again.

From a production standpoint they knew she was going well ahead of time. Jeri Ryan, and not Jennifer Lien was in all of the season 4 promotion material and commercials. I think Lien knew she wasn't going to be in season 4 when she wasn't in the group photo. Plus she was already listed as a guest star in Scorpion

 

[Sophie74656]

Kes' character evolution (perhaps using different actresses) over a short time span is the kind of thing that would be more practical to shoot and easier to write consistently as a movie, or in the context of Trek, as an episode. I think the trouble with Kes was trying to adapt her species' concept to a recurring character written by various people over the course of several seasons.

I think this is more or less true for all the characters. If you have different people writing and directing each episode then they all seem a little different, there are more little divergences.

 

[KelisThePoet]

True, but there are things the show's creators can do to simplify or complicate the individual writers' jobs.

A captain in his 30s on a five-year mission through space is more likely to have a consistent character/personality than a two-year old with an accelerated maturity and nine-year lifespan. The 30-year old human guy is no longer growing into the person he will be (at least not so dramatically as people in their teens and twenties seem to do), but he isn't dealing with the issues of growing old yet (again, relatively speaking). If he's a captain, he's successful in a stable career, which adds to his stable sense of who he is. And since he's an explorer, he's used to moving from unfamiliar thing to thing quickly without brooding too much over it, so he can have an episodic adventure one week and be emotionally ready for another episodic adventure the next. Such a consistent character is (relatively) easy for any writer to get a (basic) handle on quickly and plug into his or her story, not because he's flat or unrealistic, but because his circumstances favor consistency.

Arguably all the original cast movies dealt with how an older Kirk responded to the challenges of aging, which was wonderful and added a lot of complexity to the character, but it was something I think the movies were better suited to tackle than a series would have been. By contrast, the newest Kelvinverse movie Beyond faced the challenge of injecting emotional angst and psychological instability into what should be the most stable, episodic period of Kirk's character. But I've really digressed now.

 

[Sophie74656]

I do agree (except for anything about the new movies but that's another subject LOL). While I think it would be interesting to see, I do think it would be difficult to have an ever changing Kes in terms of writing. But as a viewer I would love to see that.

 

[2takesfrakes]

There's so much about Kes that was right, at least on paper. The only spanner in the works was her age. She's beautiful, sweet, caring, magical and inquisitive. And had Neelix been cast young, the "Beauty & the Beast" theme would've been a joy to mine from. But then, there's that 10 year lifespan, again ... always ruining it all.

 

[Drone]

Yes I hope she does. I do have a poster that needs her autograph

Just out of curiosity, why are you interested in getting her autograph if you clearly believe she was a lousy actress?

The character was a 2 year old ham, or 200 year old megalomaniac, so the part called for a horrible actress.

I remember at the time describing the episode to a friend: "And she's evil and hot, in skin tight leather, and killing people with her mind!"

Where's that hail-fellow-well-met, who just a few short years ago espoused decidedly more favorable views about Kes' character, and by extension, the work of a "horrible" actress, who basically created the empathic and preternaturally wise creature with, at the same time, an indefatigable determination, out of whole cloth? I seem to remember words along the lines of, "Kes, Kes, Kes, a million times Kes" in a Kes vs. Seven thread, that was not a one or two liner, but went into some detail as to the clear superiority of the former, in a number of ways.

Are you aging faster in some manner than the biological clock would define you as at a relatively youthful milepost, or are you just showing off your chops for being rather fickle, when the mood/situation strikes?

 

[Guy Gardener]

This side of 40, I'm not allowed to talk dirty about 19 year olds any more.

It's creepy.

 

[2takesfrakes]

BUT ... it IS permissible to discuss Jennifer Lien, as she's hauling 40, herself. At least, there will always be VOYAGER, where her stolen youth is trapped in amber, as it were ... like some primordial insect waiting to become genetically transmogrified into a cloned dinosaur.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Do you want to be this guy?

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[2takesfrakes]

I'll have to answer that at a later date - my computer is giving me jip!