Generations - The Nexus

[Matthew Parsons]

Hi all,

First post here so please be gentle.

Currently watching Generations for the nth time.

Never really understood - why doesn't everything that happens after Picard enters the nexus happen only in the nexus and not outside (i.e real time)?

Guinans echo says that you can travel back and forth in time in the nexus, you can go anywhere, but aren't picard and kirk still therefore in the nexus when they go back to try and stop Soran?

As such everything that happens after is just wish fulfillment from picards point of view. He never actually leaves the nexus, and everything that happens after happens within the nexus (including the following films)

I'm sure this has been discussed many times before but still would appreciate any response.

 

[Smellmet]

The only response I can give is... The nexus was an utterly dreadful plot point that pretty much ruined the otherwise excellent star trek generations. You can't really begin to rationalise anything that happens in it because it's a load of hokey nonsense. Why didn't picard just go back and arrest soran in ten forward?

Welcome to the forum. Live long and prosper.

 

[Nebusj]

=
I'm sure this has been discussed many times before but still would appreciate any response.

Yeah, we really got nothing.

Best we can suppose is that Guinan was wrong about how the Nexus works. Board retcon enthusiast Timo has a hypothesis that the Nexus is actually some sort of galactic rapid transit system, bringing people enormous distances and keeping them entertained with their Fantasy Ideal Life during transit, and that, really, makes the whole thing just about make sense.

 

[Matthew Parsons]

The only response I can give is... The nexus was an utterly dreadful plot point that pretty much ruined the otherwise excellent star trek generations. You can't really begin to rationalise anything that happens in it because it's a load of hokey nonsense. Why didn't picard just go back and arrest soran in ten forward?

Welcome to the forum. Live long and prosper.

That had never occured to me! Its a shame the mechanic of the nexus, because i think that generations is in general a much better film than first contact, which gets so much praise.

 

[Smellmet]

I enjoy generations right up to the point picard goes into the nexus, then the movie falls apart for me. I think it's aged better than first contact and insurrection too in terms of visuals and cinematography, a lot of the effects still hold up well today, particularly the veridian III destruction, stellar cartography and saucer crash. It's a good but very flawed movie.

 

[ItIsGreen]

The effects still look great. The 6' Enterprise model is beautiful, shame it was her final voyage. Be nice if Picard had paid the electricity bill though.

And agreed, the Nexus is the main problem with this film. If it had been stationary, either in space or on a planet/station, it would have been easier to make it make sense.

 

[Dukhat]

The inherent problem with the Nexus (aside from the fact that it's just a plot device to get Kirk and Picard together), was that it wasn't anything like how it was described in the very same movie it was featured in. Guinan makes it quite clear that once you're in, you'll NEVER want to leave, the illusion will be too powerful to resist, and you'll care nothing about getting back to the real world. And yet this is precisely the opposite of what happens when Picard enters it.

There's really only one way to rectify what we saw with how Guinan described the Nexus, and that is that Picard never actually left the Nexus, and everything that happened from the point that he believed he returned to the real world is in fact just more illusion (and that Kirk actually DID die during the Ent-B voyage, and the person Picard meets is just all part of the illusion.)

 

[Kronos]

Picard still being in the Nexus explains action hero Picard from the next 3 movies.

 

[2takesfrakes]

First Contact is brilliant. Insurrection is entertaining popcorn fare. Nemesis reminds of an extended TNG episode. The problem of Generations isn't the Nexus, really ... it's William Shatner. It should've never been a crossover movie. He is what necessitated the Nexus ... not the follow-up TNG films. When Captain Kirk gave up the ghost, it seemed to break the Nexus' spell, anyway. It just seemed to dissipate, off into the distant horizon and it's never come up, again. Which is good, because I really couldn't stand Picard's family, in it. The wife looked insane. It's not 1753, Mrs. P.! OK? So ... take the kids to Marks & Spencer's and try dressing a little more modern.

 

[Galileo7]

First Contact is brilliant. Insurrection is entertaining popcorn fare. Nemesis reminds of an extended TNG episode. The problem of Generations isn't the Nexus, really ... it's William Shatner. It should've never been a crossover movie. He is what necessitated the Nexus ... not the follow-up TNG films. When Captain Kirk gave up the ghost, it seemed to break the Nexus' spell, anyway. It just seemed to dissipate, off into the distant horizon and it's never come up, again. Which is good, because I really couldn't stand Picard's family, in it. The wife looked insane. It's not 1753, Mrs. P.! OK? So ... take the kids to Marks & Spencer's and try dressing a little more modern.

Agree, I would rather that Shatner/Kirk did not appear in Generations just to be killed off.
If Shatner/Kirk had not been killed and returned to his time at the end, then I would have like it.
Albeit, I still do not like the Nexus.
I like TUC with the cast left alive and intact...no on screen deaths.
Generations should have been a totally NG film, like FC, INS and NEM.

 

[Jedman67]

As such everything that happens after is just wish fulfillment from picards point of view. He never actually leaves the nexus, and everything that happens after happens within the nexus (including the following films)

According to the movie (and novelization), Picard was tempted to stay in the Nexus, but realized that Real Life was more important, so he picked up Kirk and the two of them exited the Nexus when Kirk realized that it was just an illusion. The point at which they returned to Real Life was Veridian III just before Soran launched the probe.

 

[Dukhat]

According to the movie (and novelization), Picard was tempted to stay in the Nexus, but realized that Real Life was more important, so he picked up Kirk and the two of them exited the Nexus when Kirk realized that it was just an illusion. The point at which they returned to Real Life was Veridian III just before Soran launched the probe.

But again, this is the complete opposite of what Guinan said would happen. So, dramatically speaking, what was the point of Guinan making those remarks if it was just a bunch of BS? And of course, since she's actually been in the Nexus, the audience has to assume that what's she's saying is true, when it clearly isn't.

And that's the main flaw with the cncept of the Nexus: We're led to believe that it's this super powerful illusion world that you can never escape from and will want to go back to it if you're ever taken from it...and that simply didn't happen. It was just a ham-fisted and convoluted plot device to get Kirk and Picard together so that Kirk could ultimately die.

 

[Jedman67]

But again, this is the complete opposite of what Guinan said would happen. So, dramatically speaking, what was the point of Guinan making those remarks if it was just a bunch of BS? And of course, since she's actually been in the Nexus, the audience has to assume that what's she's saying is true, when it clearly isn't.

And that's the main flaw with the cncept of the Nexus: We're led to believe that it's this super powerful illusion world that you can never escape from and will want to go back to it if you're ever taken from it...and that simply didn't happen. It was just a ham-fisted and convoluted plot device to get Kirk and Picard together so that Kirk could ultimately die.

No...Guinan said that you'd never want to leave; part of her desired very much to go back. In a sense it has a similar theme to Hollow Pursuits, Barclay much preferred his holodeck fantasy to real life. It took a lot of effort to kick his holodeck obsessions and 'return' to the real world. Multiply that...addiction? persuasion? to an environment that can make all that more real than the most realistic holodeck. That can bring your loved ones back from the grave. That can restore your shattered planet and return your life to something resembling what it once was. The appeal for people like Soran was that it gave them back everything they lost - the pull of it was irresistible.
Then compare it to people like Picard and Kirk, both Heroes, both who understand and embrace loss and pain, for them, the pull is real too. But the pull of honor and duty was strong enough to overcome the fantasy.

Although I agree that it was a bit of a ham-fisted portrayal and it really did not need the "passing of the torch" element.

 

[Dukhat]

No...Guinan said that you'd never want to leave; part of her desired very much to go back. In a sense it has a similar theme to Hollow Pursuits, Barclay much preferred his holodeck fantasy to real life. It took a lot of effort to kick his holodeck obsessions and 'return' to the real world. Multiply that...addiction? persuasion? to an environment that can make all that more real than the most realistic holodeck. That can bring your loved ones back from the grave. That can restore your shattered planet and return your life to something resembling what it once was. The appeal for people like Soran was that it gave them back everything they lost - the pull of it was irresistible.
Then compare it to people like Picard and Kirk, both Heroes, both who understand and embrace loss and pain, for them, the pull is real too. But the pull of honor and duty was strong enough to overcome the fantasy.

Although I agree that it was a bit of a ham-fisted portrayal and it really did not need the "passing of the torch" element.

Guinan: "If you go [to the Nexus], you're not going to care...about anything. Not this ship, not Soran, not me...nothing. All you'll want is to stay in the Nexus, and you're not going to want to come back."

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. Except for the part where absolutely none of this happened. The things you talk about? Honor and duty? According to Guinan, that stuff doesn't matter either. Unless it's all just more aspects to the fantasy that Picard is trapped in. And really, why would he want to go back to the real world? In his fantasy he gets a new Enterprise in just a couple of years, his crew stays with him far, far longer than they logically should have, he gets to travel in time and meet Zefram Cochrane, he gets to kill the Borg Queen, gets to meet a hot alien chick with a fountain of youth, and gets to meet and kill his clone. Oh, and he gets to drive a dune buggy, even though there's no logical reason for said dune buggy to even exist!

 

[Tenacity]

Guinan said would happen

Guinan isn't Human, she is a El-Aurian. Her description of the nexus perfectly lines up with Soren's motivations and desires. He's desperate to return to the nexus and remain there.

Guinan's statement applies to her own species, and is correct to her knowledge.

Even given her long exposure to Humans, Guinan's understanding of us could be incomplete and flawed.

 

[Dukhat]

Guinan isn't Human, she is a El-Aurian. Her description of the nexus perfectly lines up with Soren's motivations and desires. He's desperate to return to the nexus and remain there.

Guinan's statement applies to her own species, and is correct to her knowledge.

Even given her long exposure to Humans, Guinan's understanding of us could be incomplete and flawed.

That's just supposition on your part. Guinan isn't stupid. If she thought the Nexus would have a different effect on Picard because he's human and she's not, she would have said that. But of course, that's supposition on my part.

The bottom line remains the same: We are given a description of what the Nexus does that doesn't fit what it actually does. It doesn't matter who gave the description; it was just fake dramatic tension that had no real payoff.

 

[Tenacity]

That's just supposition on your part

Observation.

 

[Dukhat]

Observation.

Potato, Potahto. My point still stands.

 

[Jedman67]

Guinan: "If you go [to the Nexus], you're not going to care...about anything. Not this ship, not Soran, not me...nothing. All you'll want is to stay in the Nexus, and you're not going to want to come back."

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. Except for the part where absolutely none of this happened. The things you talk about? Honor and duty? According to Guinan, that stuff doesn't matter either. Unless it's all just more aspects to the fantasy that Picard is trapped in. And really, why would he want to go back to the real world? In his fantasy he gets a new Enterprise in just a couple of years, his crew stays with him far, far longer than they logically should have, he gets to travel in time and meet Zefram Cochrane, he gets to kill the Borg Queen, gets to meet a hot alien chick with a fountain of youth, and gets to meet and kill his clone. Oh, and he gets to drive a dune buggy, even though there's no logical reason for said dune buggy to even exist!

Potato, Potahto. My point still stands.

In real life, you have people absolutely convinced of one thing, while other people are convinced of the exact opposite - not to bring politics into this discussion except to illustrate a point: You have many people absolutely convinced that Trump is evil and his being elected president would doom the country, and you have other people absolutely convinced that Clinton is evil and being elected president would doom the country.
At the end of the day, Guinan merely extrapolated her own experience with the nexus with her opinion of what Picard's reaction would be - and she was wrong.

The bottom line remains the same: We are given a description of what the Nexus does that doesn't fit what it actually does. It doesn't matter who gave the description; it was just fake dramatic tension that had no real payoff.

The description of the Nexus does fit - for Guinan and for Soran. Starship captains are made of different stuff, apparently - the Nexus was tempting, even to Picard and Kirk. But they were able to break out of it at the end, because they knew it wasn't real, and to them "real" pain was preferable to "fake" happiness.

 

[JamesRye]

Ah, Generations. A film that I was so stoked to see. Even the Phantom Menace didn't leave me as disappointed as Generations. One thing that everyone seems to forget is that if Guinan left an 'echo' of her former self in the Nexus, then so did Picard and Kirk. Meaning that JTK does kinda live happily ever after. Click the link for more thoughts if you like:

https://ryesofthegeek.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/star-trek-generations-film-review/