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Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

This ep was fairly terrible. The paperweight joke was good, but I was half expecting him to tell someone to close a window.

As far as the Lincoln stuff goes, I couldn't get the opening theme from "Police Squad" out of my head.
 
I liked this episode a bit more than I did the pilot episode. It just occurred to me that if Flynn's plans had succeeded, Schuyler Halifax would have ended up sworn as the 17th President of the U.S., one of the founders of the Republican Party and a diehard advocate of abolition. Why would Flynn want this man to be president?
 
I said "They really need paperweights" one second before the character did. :lol:

It's getting a little strange that each trip is screwing up something major in our heroine's life, but nobody else's. It seems likely that members of the crew at the base would be popping in and out of existance.
 
I liked this episode a bit more than I did the pilot episode. It just occurred to me that if Flynn's plans had succeeded, Schuyler Halifax would have ended up sworn as the 17th President of the U.S., one of the founders of the Republican Party and a diehard advocate of abolition. Why would Flynn want this man to be president?

Why Schuyler Halifax? The Presidental Succession Act of 1792 (the one in power at the time of the assassination) calls for the President Pro Tempore of the Senate to assume the duties of the presiency until a special election is held the next November to fill the office. The acting President would have been Republican Solomon Foot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Foot

In a speech he made on the war he supports the war in order to crush the rebellion. He did not favor freeing the slaves, except as a means to hurt the rebellion. He may have seen things much as Lincoln wished to do, given what he said seems to mimic Lincoln's actions.

http://www.nytimes.com/1862/11/02/news/senator-foot-of-vermont-on-the-war.html
 
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First of all, they need a better mechanism of determining what changes have occurred in the timeline. I'd suggest two identical flash drives, one left behind and the other taken on the trip, containing relevant historical data. Then, upon return, a point-by-point comparison.

Pivotal changes to the timeline can have the noted "ripple effect", but minor ones can be "damped out" by macro-historical forces.
An example of this might be the DS9 episode "Past Tense". Gabriel Bell was portrayed as a "pivotal" figure whose premature death lead to really bad consequences. I would argue that with the events of WW3 waiting in the wings that it would matter little whether Bell lived or died.

Just to put things into perspective, Kurt Vonnegut, I believe it was, in one of his novels talked about an advanced civilization who were getting crowded out by historical records. So it was decided that history would read something like this: "Following the death of Christ, there was a period of adjustment that lasted approximately five thousand years."
 
First of all, they need a better mechanism of determining what changes have occurred in the timeline. I'd suggest two identical flash drives, one left behind and the other taken on the trip, containing relevant historical data. Then, upon return, a point-by-point comparison.

That's a good idea.
 
First of all, they need a better mechanism of determining what changes have occurred in the timeline. I'd suggest two identical flash drives, one left behind and the other taken on the trip, containing relevant historical data. Then, upon return, a point-by-point comparison.

I suspect that's what the thumbdrive-like device is doing.
 
I suspect that's what the thumbdrive-like device is doing.

No, because then Rufus would have no reason to object to using it. We've been told outright what the device is for: Secretly recording Lucy and Wyatt's words for the benefit of the mysterious Rittenhouse. Which Rufus hates doing and considers a breach of his fellow time travelers' trust, and which is clearly not meant to be shared with anyone but Mason and Rittenhouse.
 
I just... I just don't understand how the time travel works unless they're creating entirely new timelines and jumping into those timelines every time they return. Otherwise, the moment Flynn jumps back in time, things should automatically change in the protagonist's world and it would just be the way events had always unfolded. Instead, the show suggests that this doesn't happen until they go back and then return, which makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It's not like the facility is immune to the effects (else they'd have known what changed, too), or that the act of jumping through time protects those three in particular (in which case they'd be able to ascertain what changed before they left just by looking it up). So... they have to be returning to different timelines while leaving their original still in tact but inaccessible, yeah?
 
I just... I just don't understand how the time travel works unless they're creating entirely new timelines and jumping into those timelines every time they return. Otherwise, the moment Flynn jumps back in time, things should automatically change in the protagonist's world and it would just be the way events had always unfolded. Instead, the show suggests that this doesn't happen until they go back and then return, which makes no sense to me whatsoever.

It's not like the facility is immune to the effects (else they'd have known what changed, too), or that the act of jumping through time protects those three in particular (in which case they'd be able to ascertain what changed before they left just by looking it up). So... they have to be returning to different timelines while leaving their original still in tact but inaccessible, yeah?
Which of course raises the question of why they even need to worry that there's another time machine gone renegade at all. If all time travelers do is create their own timelines, then theirs was perfectly safe to begin with. That was one of the first things that jumped out at me about the pilot episode that I mentioned upthread. It's pretty poorly thought out. I don't really care whether other time-travel stories suffer from the same deficiency, it's still a deficiency.

IIRC, in Millennium, John Varley dealt with the problem by having changes caused by time travel take time to propagate into the future. It was called "time quakes" in the film. I don't remember the name it was given in the novel, but I seem to recall it was part of the premise in it, too. In Asimov's The End of Eternity, Eternity, the realm of the time travelers, existed outside normal time and was itself immune to the changes that the Eternals engineered.
 
Oops, my bad, meant Rufus, not Fergus.
Honestly, I don't know any of their names. I assumed you were talking about Rufus and the guy he's conspiring with. They look similar enough (large eyes, rounded features, similar builds, etc.) that they might be the same person, but only his "older self" actually knows that. It would explain a lot if that were the case.

Which of course raises the question of why they even need to worry that there's another time machine gone renegade at all. If all time travelers do is create their own timelines, then theirs was perfectly safe to begin with. That was one of the first things that jumped out at me about the pilot episode that I mentioned upthread. It's pretty poorly thought out. I don't really care whether other time-travel stories suffer from the same deficiency, it's still a deficiency.

IIRC, in Millennium, John Varley dealt with the problem by having changes caused by time travel take time to propagate into the future. It was called "time quakes" in the film. I don't remember the name it was given in the novel, but I seem to recall it was part of the premise in it, too. In Asimov's The End of Eternity, Eternity, the realm of the time travelers, existed outside normal time and was itself immune to the changes that the Eternals engineered.
What's even more confusing to me is that when they jump back, they always seem to arrive AFTER Flynn had already arrived. So they have to also be jumping back to a third timeline. Which makes even less sense. It's even worse than (but similar to) the goof they did in Back to the Future II; Old Biff never should have arrived back in the future after he changed the past, but he did anyway despite how Doc explained how things were working in the altered 1985.
 
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Pretty decent episode, though I still think the show is lacking a certain level of "seriousness," "grit" or just an "edge" to it to make it feel like the stakes are real and mean something and is having an impact on the characters, they still don't seem very awed about their time displacement. Hell, what's-her-name didn't even seem that bothered by her 19th century garments! The dress with frame around it and the corset? You'd think she'd show more than slight discomfort. (See: "Time's Arrow Part 2" from TNG where Troi and Crusher show discomfort in their 19th century garments from the 24th century ones they're used to.)

The guy does also still seems pretty unimpressed by all of this.

I agree with the poster above who said they need should have some "checks" between the time travelers and the base of operations since there doesn't seem to a "Back to the Future Effect" on items that cross timelines. It's take technobabble nonsense for it to work, but just say the time-pod had a database on it with detailed information of all of history (pretty much all of wikipedia we'll go with) and have it always compared with the base's identical database which will change with the timeline.

If we're going to accept time-travel I think accepting these accurate databases can be allowed, sort-of Spock and his tricorder in "The City on the Edge of Forever" allowing him to, somehow, see the changes that may have occurred that erased their version of the 23rd Century.

It's also strange how those back at the base will question their travelers' reports on the discontinuity between timelines. They act like the woman is crazy for thinking she had a sister. Erm... isn't the whole point of this operation accepting that time-travel discontinuities can occur? So maybe when she tells you something is different in her life or in reality maybe don't be so dismissive of her, okay?

I did really like Rufus's storyline this time in his interactions with the post-Civil War AAs and how they were so happy over now being free and Rufus knows that even more than a century from that point AAs still will have many struggles, even though one will be President. Also a nice touch their re-enactors uniforms were seen as forgeries by the actual soldiers.

So, how many times do you think they're going to go back to stop/catch this guy and utterly fuck it up by a)not catching him and b)causing timeline changes before this operations picks a new team? Certainly there's other badass soldiers and laudable historians out there. Yeah, yeah, it's a "Gilligan's Island" type of effect where in order for the show to work we have to accept that they can't ever really succeed but they need to also have it make sense on how they can keep failing yet kept being put on these missions.

Timeline changes discrepancies also needs to be addressed on how long they take to change or how the changes occur. They get to the lab and the woman gets right on the pod ready to go, next we see her she's in an office or something putting on her 19th century garments. So, seems a good deal of time passed in order for them to procure the garments for her and the men and for everyone to get changed. Probably close to an hour. And how much time passed between episodes? Has everyone even slept or eaten?

The show seems to be running a bit fast, maybe it's due to me not being quite used to episodic TV anymore and being more into serialized shows where some more care is taken for the continuity of things happening and getting "down time" with the characters for development.

And, on the point of dealing with changes. Saving Lincoln would have had massive, large, changes on the last 150 years or so that could have untold consequences and it'd be hard to say if they'd have been good or bad. (I'd argue probably good, but alas.) Saving the guy's wife? Probably wouldn't change much that dramatically. So they could (and likely will) save his wife without having a meaningful impact on things (the woman's sister being gone and her mother well is a conspiracy of circumstances and coincidences that compounded on one another but ultimately didn't matter.) Saving Lincoln would have big changes. Butterfly effect and all, but some butterflies are bigger than others.
 
Pretty decent episode, though I still think the show is lacking a certain level of "seriousness," "grit" or just an "edge" to it to make it feel like the stakes are real and mean something and is having an impact on the characters, they still don't seem very awed about their time displacement. Hell, what's-her-name didn't even seem that bothered by her 19th century garments! The dress with frame around it and the corset? You'd think she'd show more than slight discomfort.

Well, she was established as an expert on the period, even the author of a book about the assassination. (I'd say that makes it quite coincidental that Flynn went there, except he seems to be following her lead in some way.) So perhaps she's had experience with the attire before. Although I hope she doesn't happen to be an expert on every period they visit.


The guy does also still seems pretty unimpressed by all of this.

If you mean Wyatt, soldierly stoicism seems to be his main character trait.


If we're going to accept time-travel I think accepting these accurate databases can be allowed, sort-of Spock and his tricorder in "The City on the Edge of Forever" allowing him to, somehow, see the changes that may have occurred that erased their version of the 23rd Century.

The "somehow" is that he tricorder-scanned the Guardian's playbacks of Earth history both before and after the change, so he had recordings of both versions.


It's also strange how those back at the base will question their travelers' reports on the discontinuity between timelines. They act like the woman is crazy for thinking she had a sister. Erm... isn't the whole point of this operation accepting that time-travel discontinuities can occur? So maybe when she tells you something is different in her life or in reality maybe don't be so dismissive of her, okay?

They're new at this. There are only two prototype time machines in existence, after all, so it's not like they have a lot of practical experience. And being aware of the idea of timeline alteration as a theoretical abstraction is one thing; accepting that your own personal memories and identity have been changed is a much bigger mental leap.


So, how many times do you think they're going to go back to stop/catch this guy and utterly fuck it up by a)not catching him and b)causing timeline changes before this operations picks a new team? Certainly there's other badass soldiers and laudable historians out there. Yeah, yeah, it's a "Gilligan's Island" type of effect where in order for the show to work we have to accept that they can't ever really succeed but they need to also have it make sense on how they can keep failing yet kept being put on these missions.

Maybe not. After all, shows these days are all about the big arcs and mythologies, so there can be major changes that happen over time. If the show lasts, we'll eventually find out what this mysterious Rittenhouse is and why Flynn is following Future Lucy's book and all that, and those answers may propel the show into a new phase with a new set of goals, something that's bigger and more sweeping than what we've seen so far.
 
The entire story of this episode depended on Abraham Lincoln's son just happening to have the hots for the protagonist.

Were any of our heroes vaccinated for eradicated diseases not so eradicated in the past?
 
The "somehow" is that he tricorder-scanned the Guardian's playbacks of Earth history both before and after the change, so he had recordings of both versions.

Yeah, but as I recall the Guardian's playbacks were being somewhat randomly generated, (i.e. though cycling, not going in any real logical order) and as amazing as that episode is (I'd put it in my top handful of Trek episodes through the whole franchise) it sort of asks us to accept that the tricorder was able to record, and store, two entire timelines in it for comparison. This is quite the feat! Yeah, TOS played fast and loose with the fictional technology but it seems a rather large stretch the tricorder kept two entire timelines on it enough for Spock to make comparisons and find a divergent point that hinges on a meaningless woman getting hit by a car.

Yes, she wasn't strictly "meaningless" in the altered timeline, but it still seems like that's pretty detailed information for a tricorder to pick-up over a scan of random points in Earth's history and various locations as they appear over the course of a few minutes. I mean, that tricorder would have had to have information on *everything* in order to do this. That's pretty damn incredible given that in later Trek series it's implied that computer cores are massive areas on ships, the Enterprise-D has three, and that the information storage seems to be something akin to cloud storage and not all available data is stored locally as there's plenty of times characters say they have to access a grander database to get information.

But, nope, everything about Earth's history fits on the tricorder's internal storage.

Were any of our heroes vaccinated for eradicated diseases not so eradicated in the past

This is sort of a conceit we have to accept when it comes to time-travel stories. Technically our heroes should be vulnerable to all kinds of things walking around so far in the past, things their bodies aren't going to be immune to because they're things they don't encounter in present-day. Vice-versa is true as well, they're going to expose contemporary inhabitants to the evolved/adapted diseases and viruses from the future. Things we're immune to due to the changes in technology, forcing the micro-organisms to change, further pushing our immune system to change they're going to bring that back to a time period that is hundreds or thousands of bacterial "generations" behind.

Further, our characters shouldn't really be able to drink or eat anything so far in the past, people in the 19th century didn't exactly drink water that'd been through a purification process and treated with fluoride and the food wasn't raised (both flora and fauna) with a controlled process to prevent contamination or impure food.

Think of pork, for example. Today modern pork is, relatively, safe to eat at medium doneness because big operators of pig farms feed their pigs a controlled diet, usually corn, that minimizes or eliminates pathogens in the meat. Go back even a few decades and you run into the time of "cook pork thoroughly"/"to well done" period because pigs were fed slop. Slop basically being garbage filled with all sorts of nastiness that gets into the meat and, potentially, into the consumer of the pork.

This sort of thing can pretty much be applied to all areas of food types and processing, very, very different treatment and production methods. People back the didn't get food-born illnesses from it, or as severely, because they had immunities to them developed from this being the only kind of food they're exposed to. You or me? A single meal in the 19th century would likely mean us spending the night in an outhouse.

So, a conceit we have to accept in time-travel stories is just that "somehow" these complications from food and disease aren't a problem.
 
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Were any of our heroes vaccinated for eradicated diseases not so eradicated in the past?

Good thought. They should definitely have an episode in which they have to deal with an outbreak of something like the Spanish Flu in the present.

Alternatively, though, they could really mess up the past by bringing some of our modern viruses back to the past. They might have to choose whether or not to kill somebody in the past (who hadn't died in the 'original' or prior timeline) in order to prevent an epidemic. It would be even more morally precarious if that past person became a carrier but appeared not to be likely to die from the virus. That way you're not just speeding up the process of the virus but actively choosing to take a person's future from him/her.

At a minimum, they should probably be taking some modern antivirals into the past (for themselves or people they come into contact with...though, they would probably have to stick around for a few days to see if one of the individuals in the past got infected--symptoms aren't necessarily immediate). They should also have to go through quarantine once returned to the present.
 
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