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Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

I doubt they will, since it serves a useful story function -- it keeps them from using time travel as an easy way to undo mistakes. Whatever actions they take, whatever failures they experience, they're stuck with them, and that's clearly preferable from a dramatic standpoint. There'd be no stakes to the story if they could have do-overs every time they failed.

Besides, the less money they have to spend on split-screen shots, the more money they have to spend on historical spectacle, and I'm cool with that.

A couple of things i expect them to do with this particular point.

1 - Travel back to a time just prior to a previous arrival. Since they cannot be in a time where they already exist it puts an additional urgency to their visit. This becomes more likel the longer they travel.

2 - Similarly, they come close to the date of birth for one of the characters. While it should be a date betwwn birth and conception, i expect they will simplify it for the audience. Again adding an extra dash of urgency.

Also given that the time travelers look to be between 25 and 30, we shouldn't see amy time trips within the last 2 years or so.
 
Given this show is basically just raiding the closet on time travel tropes, I'd be very surprised if we go the first season without something involving the team meeting up with themselves in some manner. Whether it's them on a mission and they accidently bump into themselves, a second time capsule mysteriously shows up at base with their corpses, or one/all of them unconscious and so on.

Why would you assume that when they went out of their way to establish -- twice -- that this is one of the foundational time-travel rules of their universe? I know this wasn't a brilliant show, but that doesn't mean these writers are so incompetent that they don't even know how to establish a ground rule and stick to it.

I mean, that's the way fantasy/SF fiction works. You can depart from the rules of reality or of other works of fiction however much you want, but you have your own internal set of rules that define how your world works, and those rules help drive the stories you tell. For instance, one of the ground rules on Charmed was that good witches couldn't use their powers for personal gain and would suffer negative consequences if they did, and that rule remained in effect throughout the series and drove a number of storylines. Sliders had a rule that they could only slide out of a world when the timer reached zero, and if they missed the wormhole, they'd be stranded. While they did fiddle with the specifics of that rule occasionally, the fact that the rule existed was a driving factor in many stories. They didn't just arbitrarily ignore it. Rules matter in fantasy. They're how a work of fantasy fiction defines and delineates its world. And the fact that they made such a point of establishing this rule in their debut episode makes it clear that it's a rule they intend to follow.

Sure, if the series ran long and changed showrunners, the new showrunners might well throw out their predecessors' rules. But judging from the lukewarm ratings the premiere got, that doesn't seem likely to happen.


Hell, we've already established Flynn has a journal Lucy will write in the future, so that's potentially setting something up right there.

Wha? That's a completely different matter from two copies of a person being in the same place at the same time. Yes, they're both time paradoxes, but a snowstorm and a tornado are both weather phenomena, and that doesn't mean they're the same phenomenon.


The thing I'm suprised no one noticed is the guy that played berlinghoff Rasmussen in TNGs A Matter of Time made a very noticeable appearance of getting kidnapped into the main time machine.... I wonder if that was a purposefull Easter Egg, or just a happy accident.

That's the only thing you recognize Matt Frewer from? He's been a stalwart of genre television since he played Max Headroom three decades ago. And his character is a recurring one, not just a cameo; IMDb confirms that.


- Similarly, they come close to the date of birth for one of the characters. While it should be a date betwwn birth and conception, i expect they will simplify it for the audience. Again adding an extra dash of urgency.

I'm not sure if the ban is on any time when they exist, or specifically to being in the same time and place as themselves, close enough that they could meet themselves.
 
Just finished watching the first episode and I liked it and hope the series goes well, but mostly because I'm a sucker for time-travel stories and this series seems like one on the track of the kind I like. (As opposed to Dr. Who. Who is fighting some crazy aliens from the future or something and is an immortal alien or something himself rather than a brilliant human being? Yeah, whatever.)

But for a first episode it seemed to have "growing pains" and if it weren't for all of the exposition in this episode it could easily be mistaken for a mid-season episode done before a hiatus taken before coming back for sweeps.

The characters seemed to set and comfortable in their roles in the mission and the experience of being in the past seemed largely mundane to them. The woman had some gasps of awe and the black male had, understandable, apprehensions about being a black man in the past and white guy.... Wasn't moved one way or the other because he was.... hungover?

I also sort of want better explanation and foundation of the "rules" we're dealing with here. Like why all of the urge and urgency when it comes to doing these missions? A lot of time had to have passed between the stealing of the "production line" time-machine, the government finding out about it, and then assembling this team to stop/catch the guy which.... Since all of the past has happened why haven't his changes taken place yet? If his changes impact only a "separate timeline" and doesn't impact the one the characters are presently in then why try and catch him? He's not making any changes that would impact you.

I'll momentarily accept the notion that can't go back to try again or encounter themselves but I'm going to need a better reason why, it'd make more sense to speak of more disruptions in the past rather than "the guy who met himself didn't come back in one piece" thing which is too close to the ridiculous "same matter can't occupy the same space" nonsense from the movie "Time Cop."

And while it's important to know about these things from the past I hope the past racism and feminism issues don't become a recurring theme. (Yes, the episode didn't touch on sexism issues but it will have to eventually.) Yeah, these things happened and we need to know about them but I suspect the everyone alive today knows they happened and the overwhelming majority knows how terrible it was.

The costuming and look of the past looked good for TV CGI. costuming and location shooting and such, but also had a "quality" to it. But with budget constraints this is likely to fall under "they're doing what they can with the money and time they have" umbrella like with the dodgy effects we sometimes seen in "Supergirl" and even "The Walking Dead."

It took the guy and girl way too long to realize to use the underwire in the bra to pick the jail cell lock. The exposition on that was too poorly set up with the woman overly pointing out the type of bra she was wearing before leaving. They could've not had her mention it at all and just had the jail scene take place as it did and I think most people would get it, or *then* have her snap her fingers and say, "Underwire!" But when he said he needed a hairpin or something to pick the lock on the cell door I was like, "What about the underwire in your bra?"

It was interesting to see the contemporary cop questioning the semi-automatic pistol from the future but he didn't see the thumbdrive voice-recorder thing the black guy had? (And *of course* we're doing the thing with mission leaders with sinister motives.) I liked the past journalist woman noticing the LED on the bomb.

The woman didn't seem too concerned with how even with the Hindenburg blowing up that night that it'd still make monumental changes since the same people wouldn't die and she points out a number of important people who were going to be on the ship during the return flight and how that'd have big impacts which apparently was... Her mother no longer has terminal cancer and she's now and only child?

And there seems to be some suggestion of a "self-correction" thing with the contemporary journalist woman getting killed anyway as well as the ship blowing up. So if there's this "self-correction" aspect then they needn't do anything at all, since time is dealing with it "naturally."

Before the series started I was wondering what direction the show was going to go with the timetravel if the actions of our heroes were going to cause things to happen the way they are supposed to (the closed loop theory) or to ensure things happen the way they're supposed to, preventing the bad-guy from changing historic events. With this episode it seems to be meeting in the middle.

It's almost a "Where in Time is Carmen San Diego?" sort of thing.

Anyway, just some off-the-head thoughts and ideas. Series seems okay but I think needs some improvement to really latch an audience. It just has a level of "TV hokey-ness" to it that is there as compared to a series like, "Designated Survivor" which takes a rather absurd premise and treats it seriously and makes it feel real.
 
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Just finished watching the first episode and I liked it and hope the series goes well, but mostly because I'm a sucker for time-travel stories and this series seems like one on the track of the kind I like. (As opposed to Dr. Who. Who is fighting some crazy aliens from the future or something and is an immortal alien or something himself rather than a brilliant human being? Yeah, whatever.)

Have you checked out the early years of the classic Doctor Who from the '60s? They didn't actually establish he was an alien for several years -- he was from another planet in the far future, but he was sometimes referred to as human, suggesting it was a human colony world -- and the stories alternated between straight-up historical adventures in Earth's past and science fiction stories in outer space. Although the production values were very low-budget and stagey and a lot of the episodes are missing.


and white guy.... Wasn't moved one way or the other because he was.... hungover?

Yeah, so far Wyatt seems a bit too stoic and withdrawn to seem like the best use of Matt Lanter's talents. I mean, this is the one guy who's ever played prequel-era Anakin Skywalker in a way that made the character interesting and likeable. He's capable of better than this.


Since all of the past has happened why haven't his changes taken place yet? If his changes impact only a "separate timeline" and doesn't impact the one the characters are presently in then why try and catch him? He's not making any changes that would impact you.

The ending made it clear that the changes did affect the world they were in, in pretty major ways. When the travelers got back, they were the only ones who remembered the original history. So it's Back to the Future time-travel logic.

And yes, that does raise the question of why the changes weren't instantaneous.


And while it's important to know about these things from the past I hope the past racism and feminism issues don't become a recurring theme. (Yes, the episode didn't touch on sexism issues but it will have to eventually.) Yeah, these things happened and we need to know about them but I suspect the everyone alive today knows they happened and the overwhelming majority knows how terrible it was.

If that were so, we wouldn't have an overtly white-supremacist presidential candidate polling at over 40 percent. Such reminders are more important now than they've been in a long time.

And I must say, I find it pretty bizarre to hear a poster who calls himself "Trekker" say he doesn't want social commentary in his science fiction.

The costuming and look of the past looked good for TV CGI. costuming and location shooting and such, but also had a "quality" to it. But with budget constraints this is likely to fall under "they're doing what they can with the money and time they have" umbrella like with the dodgy effects we sometimes seen in "Supergirl" and even "The Walking Dead."

Even those "dodgy" effects are enormously better than what we had just ten years ago or even five years ago, let alone when I was growing up in the '70s and '80s. Audiences today are so spoiled and entitled about VFX, and I have no sympathy for that at all.

It was interesting to see the contemporary cop questioning the semi-automatic pistol from the future but he didn't see the thumbdrive voice-recorder thing the black guy had?

Rufus. His name is Rufus. The historian is Lucy, the soldier is Wyatt.

And at least the cop recognized what the gun was. The recorder was probably too strange for him to identify as anything other than some kind of jewelry.

I liked the past journalist woman noticing the LCD on the bomb.

LED, actually, but yeah, a digital display would stand out for someone in the '30s. They didn't even have nixie tubes yet.

The woman didn't seem too concerned with how even with the Hindenburg blowing up that night that it'd still make monumental changes since the same people wouldn't die and she points out a number of important people who were going to be on the ship during the return flight and how that'd have big impacts which apparently was... Her mother no longer has terminal cancer and she's now and only child?

Her concern was that those important people would die. Flynn's plan was to delay the Hindenburg's destruction until after the important people boarded it, so that they would be killed when they were originally spared (because it blew up before they boarded). In the altered history, everyone evacuated except the lady reporter and the one bad guy, so nobody else died in the disaster. So the historically important people who lived still lived, and the people whose deaths were undone were presumably more ordinary people who had subtler ripple effects on history.


And there seems to be some suggestion of a "self-correction" thing with the contemporary journalist woman getting killed anyway as well as the ship blowing up. So if there's this "self-correction" aspect then they needn't do anything at all, since time is dealing with it "naturally."

Not at all. Quite a few time-travel shows are based on the premise that history can be changed, but not easily; it resists change, so that achieving a desired goal is difficult, but major change is possible if it's done in the right way, so that the whole thing isn't pointless. This show allows for easier changes to history than something like Continuum or 12 Monkeys, but still, the self-correcting effect is clearly limited. Something similar to the original events still happened, but there were still alterations. And that means it's possible for a more major alteration to happen, even if it's not easy to achieve.
 
A couple of things i expect them to do with this particular point.

1 - Travel back to a time just prior to a previous arrival. Since they cannot be in a time where they already exist it puts an additional urgency to their visit. This becomes more likel the longer they travel.

2 - Similarly, they come close to the date of birth for one of the characters. While it should be a date betwwn birth and conception, i expect they will simplify it for the audience. Again adding an extra dash of urgency.

Also given that the time travelers look to be between 25 and 30, we shouldn't see amy time trips within the last 2 years or so.

Easiest thing to do to fix the mistake of the first team is to send a second team.
 
That's the only thing you recognize Matt Frewer from? He's been a stalwart of genre television since he played Max Headroom three decades ago. And his character is a recurring one, not just a cameo; IMDb confirms that.

My first thought whenever I see him is of Taggart, the Australian animal expert from Eureka.
I'm not sure if the ban is on any time when they exist, or specifically to being in the same time and place as themselves, close enough that they could meet themselves.
I was wondering about that. If it is the second option, I could maybe see an episode or two where they have to hide from themselves.

I thought it was pretty enjoyable. Nothing amazing, but still pretty good.
They set up some pretty interesting mysteries. I'm definitely curious to learn the origins of Lucy's journal from the future, and especially how Flynn ended up with it. From what Flynn said, and the journal, it does seem like they picked Lucy because they already had some kind of future knowledge of her involvement.
The characters didn't really standout, but they were still watchable.
The historical stuff was pretty good. It was nice to see them acknowledge the racism of the era, which is something some similar shows tend to gloss over. I got kick out of Rufus's rant at the cop.
Them actually not preventing changes to the timeline was a nice twist, and shows that they will be playing around with changes to history, rather than always keeping everything the way it is in reality.
 
My first thought whenever I see him is of Taggart, the Australian animal expert from Eureka.

And of course Dr. Leekie from Orphan Black.


I was wondering about that. If it is the second option, I could maybe see an episode or two where they have to hide from themselves.

Again, I really don't think they would've made a point of establishing the rule twice in the pilot if they had no intention of honoring it. The storytelling reason for the rule is obvious: They don't want time travel to be an easy out. They want the characters to get only one chance to fix a problem, period, so that the stakes are as high as they'd be in a show without time travel. From a narrative perspective, from a dramatic and emotional perspective, it is very desirable to obey that rule strictly, so that the crises have real stakes and the characters have to live with their consequences. It's not just some arbitrary technical gimmick to be worked around. At least, it won't be if the writing on this show is any good, though the jury's still out on that.

The characters didn't really standout, but they were still watchable.

Lucy stood out for me mainly because she's hot. And so far I'm more invested in Matt Lanter because of his earlier roles than because of his current one.

It was nice to see them acknowledge the racism of the era, which is something some similar shows tend to gloss over. I got kick out of Rufus's rant at the cop.

That's something I hope they don't downplay going forward. Sure, some white viewers might prefer not to be reminded too heavily of that aspect of history, but just looking at it from a standpoint of character realism, you put a black man in a time machine and send him into American history and he's damn well going to have a strong opinion about what he finds. So glossing over that would be unrealistic. (There's an upcoming time travel comedy on FOX, Making History, that has a similar dynamic, judging from its trailer.)
 
@Christopher

Thanks for the response. I'm terrible with names so it may take a while for the names of these characters to "stick" though I suspect Rufus's name will stick given that name's connections, as pointed out up-thread, to the "Bill and Ted" character.

As for the people dying/not dying on the ship, I got the guy's plan but I guess I had interpreted that people still died when the ship crashed during the second/return flight as it occurred under similar circumstances, and by a nearly identical cause, as the original crash.

On the Doctor Who thing: I've not see much of the show, I've tried watching the present-day episodes of it and just can't quite "click." With it. The tone and look of it for me doesn't work and, well, honestly there's only so much of a British accent I can take and entire cast of them with a range of variations on it breaks my limit. ;) I doubt I'll get much out of the earliest episodes considering its look and budget would make "Dark Shadows" snicker.

On the social commentary thing:

I like social commentary and the way Trek handled it, but the way Trek often handled it was indirectly, through analog and shifting of themes to a Sci-Fi setting. And its best it wasn't obvious about it, the commentary in this episode seemed on the level of "...Last Battlefield" from TOS where it's pretty much just bashing you on the head with "THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, SEE?!" It seemed a little too on the nose which, sure it may be very realistic that a black man in 1937 wouldn't experience a very pleasant time but I wonder how strong that would be in the "North" as with New Jersey. All throughout the history of the racial divide in America there's always been places where things were vastly better than other places usually causing the problems to begin with. The Civil War was caused because Northern states refused to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in the South, allowing them to live emancipated lives in the North. Probably still not *great* lives, but they weren't as much seen as slaves.

I dunno, the social commentary just seemed a touch obvious but, sadly, at the same time "realistic" and it's likely we'll run into the same things with Lucy's (the girl) character in future episodes as pretty much any time before the 1960s she's not going to be exactly treated with a lot of respect either. I'd just rather not be beaten on the head with it week after week.

While, as you note, Trump is getting high polling numbers amongst voters given his racial rhetoric it's important to note that 40-some percent of voters represents only a few percent of the entire American population. I think the vast majority of Americans know the horrors of the past and don't need to be reminded that racism is bad; hence why Trump polls well only with the furthest fringes of the Right and does nothing for centrists and those on the Left and even those on the shallower end of the Right.

So, I'd prefer my social commentary more subtle and hidden than in your face. Like the confrontation and treatment of Rufus in the jail-cell made sense and worked for me as that's experiencing things through a black man's position in the past. This is how one would likely, as was likely, treated. But then there's points where he's just out right saying, "There's no where in the past good for me!" or "Gee, the back of the bus was neat!" or "Maybe I should wait outside this bar since all of the white people are glowering at me."

Going forward I hope to more "experience" these historical treatments than being told he's experiencing it. More scenes of it happening to him and him then going into some rant or monologue about the future less, "I'm just going to get a sip of water, hope I pick the right fountain."
 
It seemed a little too on the nose which, sure it may be very realistic that a black man in 1937 wouldn't experience a very pleasant time but I wonder how strong that would be in the "North" as with New Jersey. All throughout the history of the racial divide in America there's always been places where things were vastly better than other places usually causing the problems to begin with. The Civil War was caused because Northern states refused to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in the South, allowing them to live emancipated lives in the North. Probably still not *great* lives, but they weren't as much seen as slaves.

That's disingenuous. Things were "better" in some places than others, true, but better than being treated as literal property or lynched simply for existing is a pretty low bar. Racism wasn't limited to the South. Even in the more enlightened communities, black people were pretty much limited to servant roles, largely segregated from the rest of society, etc. Hardly an amenable way of living for a man like Rufus who's an accomplished scientist.


I'd just rather not be beaten on the head with it week after week.

Pretty much all women and minorities have to go through their entire lives getting constantly beaten over the head with it -- sometimes literally. So don't expect much sympathy if you're upset about having to think about it from time to time.


I think the vast majority of Americans know the horrors of the past and don't need to be reminded that racism is bad

On the contrary -- being reminded is the only way to make sure it never happens again. The universe is ruled by entropy. Everything tends to get worse unless you work to make it better. Complacency about racism or sexism or other injustices just allows it to fester and spread. That's how we ended up with such a frighteningly large and organized faction of white supremacists in what we thought until recently was a post-racial society.

Besides, only a heterosexual white male could even consider it possible to avoid being reminded of discrimination. For everyone else, it's still an everyday reality, even if it's in a constant barrage of subtle microaggressions or unthinking exclusions rather than overt hatred or outright legal restrictions. And it's important to be able to understand the perspective of other groups in that respect. I was fascinated by Luke Cage because of how deeply it was steeped in the worldview of black culture. Certainly the reaction to racism was part of that story, but it went so much deeper than that -- the way being a subaltern culture can create a powerful sense of shared identity and pride, a deep investment in one's heritage and culture and creativity and community bonds as a defense against being threatened or marginalized. It's not as simple as saying "racism is bad." It's about being aware of history and how it's shaped both black and white culture. That's something worth exploring. You can't really understand American history without looking at black history, and that's a more complex subject than just the fact that racism exists. It's about having an alternative point of view and seeing a side of history that's often been glossed over in popular culture. Like how the characters in Luke Cage revered Crispus Attucks as a cultural hero -- the importance of the fact that a man of color had been the first person (or at least one of the first) to give his life in the cause of American independence. I confess, I didn't even remember the significance of the name, because it wasn't stressed in the white-centric education I got in school.

So Rufus's perspective on history as a black man is not something that should be glossed over in favor of a standard textbook view of history. There's much more to it than just the awareness of racism -- there's also the rich cultural identity that evolved in reaction to it.
 
Well, they didn't reinvent the wheel but I enjoyed the pilot and the leads. I was very interested in the end where it turns out history IS going to get changed every time, so basically these three will be the only "real" people and strangers from the world they come home to each time. Not sure I've seen that in a story before.

Did you know Sexy Soldier Guy is the voice of Anakin from Clone Wars????
 
Went looking for time travel on Youtube last night.

This one is funny.

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This one is romantic.

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This one is just awful.

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Well, they didn't reinvent the wheel but I enjoyed the pilot and the leads. I was very interested in the end where it turns out history IS going to get changed every time, so basically these three will be the only "real" people and strangers from the world they come home to each time. Not sure I've seen that in a story before.

Did you know Sexy Soldier Guy is the voice of Anakin from Clone Wars????
The Butterfly Effect dude. There are three of them.

About Time and Journeyman both had time travel change which sperm inseminated their wife's egg, ending in the hero being told that he has to love a new child, and ignore the absence of the child that he was used to loving.
 
Well, they didn't reinvent the wheel but I enjoyed the pilot and the leads. I was very interested in the end where it turns out history IS going to get changed every time, so basically these three will be the only "real" people and strangers from the world they come home to each time. Not sure I've seen that in a story before.

I gather that the upcoming series Frequency (based on the movie of the same name) is doing the same sort of thing, with the world constantly changing around the lead character and her being the only one who remembers how it was before. Although that's odd in that case, because she's not time travelling, just sending messages back into the past.


Did you know Sexy Soldier Guy is the voice of Anakin from Clone Wars????

I did mention that once or twice, yes. He was also the male lead in The CW's Star-Crossed a year or two back.
 
What about Looper?

That younger version of an old mobster was being tortured, as large pieces were being removed, which we saw suddenly always have been being missing form the elderly version of the same dude, portion by portion.

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So Rufus's perspective on history as a black man is not something that should be glossed over in favor of a standard textbook view of history. There's much more to it than just the awareness of racism -- there's also the rich cultural identity that evolved in reaction to it.
Always interesting to see which way time time travel shows go on this. I'm glad Timeless wasn't afraid to confront it head on.
 
Why would you assume that when they went out of their way to establish -- twice -- that this is one of the foundational time-travel rules of their universe?
But then the fact that it is established as the ultimate No-No means we're going to see it happen at some point, likely in a scenario where this is the only solution to a situation where the stakes are that high. This is a common trope in fiction, like in the original Ghostbusters movie where they make a point of mentioning throughout the movie "don't cross the streams" when that is in fact what they do in the film's climax.
Wha? That's a completely different matter from two copies of a person being in the same place at the same time.
Actually, I'm thinking this is going to lead to Lucy meeting her older self at some point down the line.
 
unless there's a problem with sending the same machine back, which seems silly, since all the metal in those machines has been on the planet for millions of years in one form or another...

Why not send back a second team to 1937?
 
I'd much rather their reason for not repeating a mission having to do with concerns about a paradox. The whole "the same matter can't occupy the same space" nonsense (which is what they were implying here without actually saying it) is just so much, well, nonsense. At no point whatsoever would the same matter be occupying the same space even if you shook hands with temporal duplicate. I mean, that's like saying that if you, right now, were to touch your index finger to your other index finger, the universe would spontaneously explode for the exact same (and very stupid) reason.

If you don't want to have an easy out with time travel like that, just come up with something that actually makes some amount of sense. A devastating temporal ripple that will tear about your present/future and put the entire project at risk. The paradox winking you out of existence, thereby destroying every bit of work you've done or will do. Impossible to "cross the streams" created by the time travel device. Wormholes collapsing on themselves if they intersect, sending you hurling into netherspace for all eternity. Whatever. Just anything other than the same-space malarkey. Please!
 
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