Because once in a while normal peple, with normal flaws and high intelligence do act like fools
Did Sisko ever forgive Picard?
- Thread starter retroenzo
- Start date
Yeah, for a few minutes or a day in extreme cases. NOT for several years. Sisko had years to reflect on the incident and it never occurred to him that Picard was as much of a victim as his wife, and that's pretty lousy. However, the cause of that is as I said before, bad writing. You don't write a commander like you do a petulant child. And just as I said, these occurrences are much more the exception than the rule. In fact when I think of Sisko I don't think of him saying these stupid things to Picard or bombarding innocent people in order to get one guy. No I think of him in these other cases when he's responsible and heroic.
It seems to me that you are dismissing the human factor; the fact that some times no matter how much we WANT to, we CAN NOT get a handle on or control our emotions; you know, the kind of thing that Spock struggles for and barely achieves. Sisko IS HUMAN. Humans are full of emotions, baggage, contradictions... and MOTVATIONS. Like Kirk says, I neeed my pain. Some people handle loss completely differently then others. Sisko is believable, and can not be judged to the same standards as Picard, or any other human... we are Unique, we re Individuals, and we all handle things *completely differently.* Even those responsible and heroic are going to have a ton of questionable choices in their lives to second guess and are not always going to make the perfect choices or react perfectly to their own personal histories and emotional states.
^ Well said, Sisko was being human not superhuman as ST TNG did tend to portray humanity as 'we are oh so enlightened & so far above such petty things as 'revenge' and 'holding grudges' oh primitive alien'
Well, I have,I believe, extensively stated my opinion about Sisko and given my reasons for that, so I can't think of anything to add that wouldn't be a repeat of what I said before but let's sum up a few things. I am not dismissing the human factor and I explained why. Years after the event, Sisko has had more than ample time to reflect on the events. It's different from Picard getting angry at Worf and regretting it minutes after the event. It's YEARS. That's not human, that's inhuman. To be deaf for years to someone's suffering is not only abnormal, it's pathological. It's different from getting angry for an hour and then regretting it, which would be human. Years of insane grudge is not human, it's demented. If Sisko had been angry at Picard personally for a few days and then realized on his own that Picard was not responsible, it would have made him human. Feeling this way for YEARS WITHOUT change makes him pathological. How many times do I have to make that point? I am starting to feel like sisyphus.
Considering that Sisko lost the love of his life, his wife, and could have lost his son....it's not out of the ordinary that Sisko held a grudge against Picard. Of course, Picard should have realized that.
I personally don't think it was 'bad writing' as pointed out earlier in the thread but I do think it's fanboys who didn't like this new commander, Sisko, cutting down the self-righteous Captain Picard down to size.
One of the reasons Sisko initially took the DS9 assignment was because he had the attitude of 'I don't care' anymore. I think he would have thought about using the nearest phaser on himself if it wasn't for the fact he had Jake to look after.
Did he, Sisko, eventually forgive Picard? Hmmm....does he have to? He lost his wife! Picard should have been written to realize this, whether or not he felt he was directly or indirectly involved with her death.
People deal with pain differently, especially in the case of very close family members. Sisko shouldn't be obligated to suck it up 'just because' he's dealing with Picard. I'm sure he respected the rank, but internally....his pain is going to take some time to heal whether or not it's Season 7 or beyond.
I personally don't think it was 'bad writing' as pointed out earlier in the thread but I do think it's fanboys who didn't like this new commander, Sisko, cutting down the self-righteous Captain Picard down to size.
One of the reasons Sisko initially took the DS9 assignment was because he had the attitude of 'I don't care' anymore. I think he would have thought about using the nearest phaser on himself if it wasn't for the fact he had Jake to look after.
Did he, Sisko, eventually forgive Picard? Hmmm....does he have to? He lost his wife! Picard should have been written to realize this, whether or not he felt he was directly or indirectly involved with her death.
People deal with pain differently, especially in the case of very close family members. Sisko shouldn't be obligated to suck it up 'just because' he's dealing with Picard. I'm sure he respected the rank, but internally....his pain is going to take some time to heal whether or not it's Season 7 or beyond.
But sometimes it DOES take YEARS. That is absolutely normal. That is *absolutely* human. Why are you deaf to Sisko's suffering? Years of hurt and personal demons is NOT demented. Its the most *normal* and *human* response EVER. It is much easier to blame the person who made the actual decision to wrong you individually, than it is to blame the faceless organization behind the decision. This is as true now as it will be in a couple hundred years. Human nature is not always perfectly logical.
No what would make him pathological is to hunt down Picard and attempt to destroy him, to go all TWOK on his ass. That would be pathological, instead he privately nursed his anger and grief for years, he did not deal with his PTSD until he met the wormhole aliens/Prophets. They kept telling him he existed at the place where Jennifer died, and they were right.
It's just not normal to hate someone for years without once asking yourself if you have a right to feel this way. Emotion is only an excuse for a while, a short while after that you are either capable of reasoning things out or there is something wrong with you.
There's an old latin proverb : "Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum."
It means "To err is human, to persevere is of the devil." stripped of it's religious connotations, that's quite right.
There's an old latin proverb : "Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum."
It means "To err is human, to persevere is of the devil." stripped of it's religious connotations, that's quite right.
It's amazing how many people continue to hate the men whom they think have killed their loved ones, even when those men end up being exonerated with the help of the Innocence Project.
I am sure if he thought about it he would hate himself for not using the nexus to save his nephew from it.
I think it's pretty clear from the way Stewart played the scene that Picard became acutely aware of the situation once Sisko said they had met in Battle.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you have never experienced the level of trauma that Sisko did. And what is the "normal" way to react to severe trauma anyway? There is no "one size fits all" reaction to traumatic events. Everyone is different and will react differently. And saying that there is something wrong with the way a victim behaves after the fact sounds a lot like victim blaming to me.
I take exception to that. What gives you the right to presume what level of trauma I have experienced?
Please, leave my personal life out of this debate. I promise I will return the courtesy.
You're a mod.
This has nothing to do with blaming a victim for your problems. I have already explained many times that Picard wasn't responsible for the actions of his body. Sisko is obviously not a moron so he had to know this and yet he chose to hate him anyway. That's pathological, borderline psychotic even. Maybe he's been traumatized, but in that case the trauma has made him mentally ill and unbalanced, kinda like Dukat in Waltz after the death of his daughter. The difference being that Dukat wasn't trusted by the federation to command an important space station, Sisko is.
I may be a mod, but that doesn't mean I can't join the conversation. Your lack of empathy and understanding regarding Sisko's trauma is what led me to make my assumption. However, I will refrain from making any more assumptions since I basically contradicted my statement about how everyone reacts to trauma differently.
Yes, we all know that Picard wasn't responsible, but we also have the benefit of being completely removed from the situation. It's easy to say how someone should react when you have no stake in it.
Yes, we all know that Picard wasn't responsible, but we also have the benefit of being completely removed from the situation. It's easy to say how someone should react when you have no stake in it.
There's your problem right there: Sisko did not CHOOSE to hate Picard any more than Kira chose to hate Cardassians or Picard chose to hate the Borg. He had a deep seated visceral reaction to Picard which he could not control. And he still managed to keep the meeting moderately civil, which is frankly far more than most human beings would ever achieve. If that had been someone with less discipline or understanding, the odds are high the meetin would've included crying, shouting, finger pointing or even physical violence
I think maybe we are talking past each other. For me I understand Sisko having all the emotions he has. Anger, grief etc. What don't I understand is why is he blaming Picard and not the Borg? I don't understand why he needs to 'forgive' Picard when Picard was a victim of the Borg himself. If anything they are 'fellow' victims.
Let's say a loved one of mine is walking down the sidewalk. A drunk driver rams into the back of a random car, causing THAT car to veer off course and hit and kill my loved one. I would be sad, angry and feel all the feels but I wouldn't blame the person who just happened to get caught up in it...I'd blame the drunk driver.
Let's say a loved one of mine is walking down the sidewalk. A drunk driver rams into the back of a random car, causing THAT car to veer off course and hit and kill my loved one. I would be sad, angry and feel all the feels but I wouldn't blame the person who just happened to get caught up in it...I'd blame the drunk driver.
When does he blame Picard (or are you reading too much into the scene)?
I'll give you a real life scenario. Several years back a man suffering from severe schizophrenia was traveling on a greyhound bus and beheaded a fellow passenger. He was found to be not criminally responsible for the murder because of mental illness and has since been treated and released to a group home. He may not have been responsible for his actions, but do you think the mother of the man who was beheaded would be able to rationalize it that way when her son was so brutally murdered?
Similar threads
