Did Sisko ever forgive Picard?

[DonIago]

This thread has me thinking of "The Mind's Eye", where Geordi is brainwashed in a Romulan attempt to destabilize relations between the Federation and the Klingons. From what we see, he at least comes pretty close to killing the Klingon governor.

Let's say that operation had succeeded and led to war, or even just skirmishes, between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

Assuming it ever became common knowledge that Geordi hadn't been acting of his own free will, it's hard for me to believe that everyone he'd ever meet afterward would be able to look him in the eye.

It's no more fair or rational to blame Geordi, in this case, than it is to blame Picard for his actions as Locutus. But people aren't always fair or rational.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Assuming it ever became common knowledge that Geordi hadn't been acting of his own free will, it's hard for me to believe that everyone he'd ever meet afterward would be able to look him in the eye.

Not like they looked him in the eye before.

 

[locutus101]

But Sisko did not attack Picard, in fact he was as civil as he could bring himself to be, that's the whole subtext of the scene. He knows logically that the responsibility is not Picards but human emotions are not a courtroom.

That wasn't enough of "civility". He should have been more of a man and less of a fool. Picard was no more responsible for any of his problems than a hostage is responsible for the crimes of whomever took them hostage.

His reaction was visceral, it was a purely human response to being dragged back to the very worst moment of his life and forcing himself to interact with someone whom every fibre of his being is revolted at on an instinctive level, whilst being forced to remember something so awful he can't bring himself to even think about it most of the time. Not because it was Picard's fault, but because that's a very human thing to do.

What he did is the opposite of being a human. A human being is capable of overcoming stupidity with reason. At this point Sisko needed to be taught a lesson. Lesson that he never got.

As for being insane I'd have to say no, not on the basis of that scene, in fact to not show any strong emotional response would be more concerning to most mental health professionals.

Being insane would have been his only excuse for behaving as he did. Reason was not his friend here.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

At this point Sisko needed to be taught a lesson. Lesson that he never got.

Put in his place?

 

[DonIago]

I think there's some irony in suggesting that Picard should have "taught Sisko a lesson" while arguing that Sisko should have forgiven Picard and moved on.

Forgiveness goes both ways.

 

[locutus101]

Put in his place?

Something like that.

 

[Tosk]

I think there's some irony in suggesting that Picard should have "taught Sisko a lesson" while arguing that Sisko should have forgiven Picard and moved on.

No no no, you don't get it.

Picard is the victim that has every right to be angry.
Sisko is the victim who is supposed to shut up and get over it.

 

[locutus101]

I think there's some irony in suggesting that Picard should have "taught Sisko a lesson" while arguing that Sisko should have forgiven Picard and moved on.

Forgiveness goes both ways.

I've never argued that Sisko should have forgiven Picard, because there was nothing to forgive. Sisko was an ass for thinking there was.

 

[locutus101]

No no no, you don't get it.

Picard is the victim that has every right to be angry.
Sisko is the victim who is supposed to shut up and get over it.

Sisko is not a victim to the same extent as Picard, plus he is not picard's victim. If you are the victim of someone/something else that doesn't give you the right to insult ME. The same goes for Sisko. He should have left Picard alone, and since he failed to do that, he should have apologized. He never did.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

This is true and for the record, I'm not 'holding it against Sisko'. His reaction just seemed out of step with what we had seen in the Star Trek Universe up to that point. Before if you were a victim of mind control no one held it against you, no matter what you got up to while the alien was in your head. It has little to do with what real humans do here in the real world and more to do with the way these issues had been dealt with up to that point in the Star Trek Universe. Sisko did not react the way humans in 'that' world' normally reacted. Either people are held accountable in 'that' universe for what they do while under alien influence or they are not.

That's not the way people work. You can't take a handful of seemingly similar examples and just assume that all other comparable situations must have the same outcome. The Federation has (hundreds of?) billions of people in it and there's plenty of room for similar people in similar situations to have completely different but equally understandable reactions.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Intriguingly, it may well be that Picard was in at least partial command over what happened - and that he goaded the Borg into killing Jennifer Sisko and 11,000 others because he gambled that this would be vital in helping Earth survive.

We have long been debating why the Borg would decide to stop and fight Starfleet. They didn't have to; there was nothing Starfleet could have done to stop them from reaching Earth anyway. Yet they stopped at Wolf 359 and fought; stopped (or at least significantly slowed down) at Saturn and (supposedly) fought; stopped at Jupiter and fought; stopped (or at least significantly slowed down) at Mars and fought. It would make sense for Picard to put in the reasonable suggestion that fighting Starfleet would be a good idea (assimilating new fighting techniques, clearing your flanks and rear before the final attack), while in fact the constant stopping was the desired thing.

Perhaps Sisko factually has Picard to blame for it being his dad rather than his wife surviving the Borg incursion?

Timo Saloniemi

It is possible some part of Picard was hoping to delay the Borg, but I think it is more likely that the Borg stopped off at Wolf 359 was because it was a logical move to inflict the maximum amount of damage to the fleet. There were a concentration of ships that it had the opportunity to destroy all in one place. That serves to both eliminate a potential future threat, as well as demonstrate their power and the futility of resisting the Borg. Basically, it was psychological warfare designed to terrify the Federation. The Borg probably used that tactic on countless worlds, some probably just surrendered after they lost their fleets.

 

[WB2]

As I understood it he forgave him in the end of the pilot when they shook hands

 

[DonIago]

^Agreed; I thought that was pretty clear.

 

[locutus101]

As I understood it he forgave him in the end of the pilot when they shook hands

I would have recounted my fingers, if I were Picard.

 

[Spot261]

You and i obviously have very different views on how people work, you seem to expect them to behave in an unrealistically cold and rational way. I'm not sure if thats based on experience or some idealised version of what Star Trek is and what message it purpotes to convey. To me, someone approaching the scenario with the mindset you decribe would be almost certain to generate further friction. Certainly they would not be making freinds and influencing people.

In either case I simply don't agree with how you assess this scene, it seems to me that you have fundamentally failed to understand the dynamics between the two characters and either oversimplified or completely dismissed the internal conflict Sisko is facing, not to mention the guilt and embarassment Picard is experiencing.

Sisko actually behaves pretty reasonably, containing some pretty raw emotions he clearly understands to be irrational as best he can. On a daily basis I see people becoming far more expressive with their anger given far less provocation. People get more worked up and offensive in this forum over nothing more than a TV show.

 

[-Brett-]

TNG was a pretty sterile, emotionless show, for better or worse. It's only in that context that a scene with any emotion at all, on a TNG set, with TNG's lead seems so shocking. By any other standard Sisko's behavior in this scene is pretty mild.

If someone took that tone with me over breakfast, I will have forgotten it completely by dinner.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

TNG was a pretty sterile, emotionless show, for better or worse. It's only in that context that a scene with any emotion at all, on a TNG set, with TNG's lead seems so shocking. By any other standard Sisko's behavior in this scene is pretty mild.

It reminds me of the sterile, emotionless scene where Picard broke down in front of his brother over what the Borg did to him not long before.

This is the other side of that tragedy, same coin but different perspective, unfortunately Sisko was directing it at someone who wasn't to blame, with years to have processed the situation with all the facts brought forth in that time.

 

[locutus101]

It reminds me of the sterile, emotionless scene where Picard broke down in front of his brother over what the Borg did to him not long before.

This is the other side of that tragedy, same coin but different perspective, unfortunately Sisko was directing it at someone who wasn't to blame, with years to have processed the situation with all the facts brought forth in that time.

Well, just as he said, his brother was a bully.

 

[matthunter]

I would have recounted my fingers, if I were Picard.

So, after arguing against Sisko for being irrational and failing to let it go, you're now saying Picard should have been a jerk and refused to take the apology at face value?

Sounds suspiciously like you're just looking for an excuse to hate on a character, but I'm sure that couldn't possibly be the case. Any reasonable person would be able to put such irrational feelings aside.

 

[locutus101]

....

Sounds suspiciously like you're just looking for an excuse to hate on a character, but I'm sure that couldn't possibly be the case. Any reasonable person would be able to put such irrational feelings aside.

Hold on! So you're agreeing with me that Sisko has been a major Jerk for holding that grudge for all these years against someone reason told him wasn't responsible for the actions of his body. Sisko on the other was plenty responsible for the way he treated Picard when they first met.

Apples and oranges.