Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

[Tenacity]

What's that got to do with anything? Are you saying that the Klingon are gods now?

I'm saying that it isn't simply a matter of weapons, the old saying goes "it doesn't matter what you have, it's how you use it." In some situations a knife or a arrow can defeat a individual with a gun. In other situations the gun would be the superior choice.

Future tech in the Trek-verse has shown the ability to deactivate advanced weapons. In one TAS episode, after their phasers were deactivated, Kirk employed chemical weapons.

So go build on the other side of the planet and leave them alone.

Or collect the particles from orbit and distribute them to all the good little children of the galaxy.

Why should the people of the federation have to travel to the brier patch to obtain the benefits of the particles? Take the particles to them.

Send containers of the particles to hospitals and clinics on hundreds of worlds.

What right does anyone else have to come in and tell them how to live their lives

The Baku were being moved to prevent their fiery deaths when the particles were collected, the Baku (if they wished) would have re-established their charming community where-ever the federation carelessly dumps them.

I would imagine that the Baku would continue to have access to a portion of the particles, just not all of them.

what to do with their planet

Not their planet, even Picard conceded this.

or how to utilize the resources at their disposal?

Federation resources.

So why can't anyone else build a station or colonize a crappy moon in the area, and leave them and their planet alone?

Not their planet, even Picard conceded this. And why build a station when you can just take the particles to where the medical patients are?

And to the comment that it was "within Federation space"

Yes, not "surrounded by" the federation, actually "within" the federation.

If a star system is surrounded by (but not within) the federation, the federation basically stops outside the system.

The way Italy stops outside the Vatican.

On the other hand the city of Florence is within Italy, the ring planet is like Florence.

Federation Law, on the other hand probably has a thousand reasons why Star Fleet and the Council should leave the Baku alone.

Leaving the Baku alone would have resulted in their deaths when the particles were collected. And the federation council can probably change federation law willy nilly as it sees fit.

the 10 Commandments carved in stone by Moses

The commandments were written into the stone by God, Mose did subsequently make a replacement set of stone tablets, but they were blanks that God then wrote the commandments into.

 

[locutus101]

I'm saying that it isn't simply a matter of weapons, the old saying goes "it doesn't matter what you have, it's how you use it." In some situations a knife or a arrow can defeat a individual with a gun. In other situations the gun would be the superior choice.
.....

Only in improbable situations will inferior weapons win in a fight. You can't use the improbable to argue the commonplace. For instance buying a lottery ticket could make you very rich. But buying lottery tickets as a career move would be pretty dumb.

 

[Guy Gardener]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trenton

Washington was outnumbered by a thousand men, so he attacked an enemy with superior numbers and weapons who was asleep and drunk/hung over because it was just past dawn on Christmas morning.

Fighting the asleep is easy.

Old Klingon proverb...

A running man can slit a thousand throats in one night.

Leaving the Baku alone would have resulted in their deaths when the particles were collected. And the federation council can probably change federation law willy nilly as it sees fit.

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Good lord you're morbid.

(Let me try to say exactly the same thing again.)

Starfleet has to leave the people the Baku and the planet Baku alone, as well as the rest of nearby space that they had claimed and held, if Federation Law is at all similar to International law on current day Earth.

"Sigh"

Picard said this was wrong and illegal, so it probably was.

 

[locutus101]

....
Good lord you're morbid.

(Let me try to say exactly the same thing again.)

Starfleet has to leave the people the Baku and the planet Baku alone, as well as the rest of nearby space that they had claimed and held, if Federation Law is at all similar to International law on current day Earth.

"Sigh"

Picard said this was wrong and illegal, so it probably was.

To paraphrase Harry Mudd, Picard could sell fake patents to his mother.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yvette Picard couldn't even buy a replicator.

 

[locutus101]

Picards mother couldn't even buy a replicator.

That's only because his father forbade her. The picards were stuck in time, sometimes before 1940, you know when the husband made all the decisions.

 

[Tenacity]

The picards were stuck in time, sometimes before 1940, you know when the husband made all the decisions.

Ahh, like with the wedding of Ben Sisko and Kasidy Yates, where he wanted the wedding performed by a Admiral and she want it performed by a Minister.

Only in improbable situations will inferior weapons win in a fight.

Police officers are taught that if confronting someone (or they the officer) and they start to approach closes than twenty feet, the officer is to pull their weapon. Because a person in reasonable health can cover twenty feet faster then the officer can pull their weapon. The gun becomes irrelevantly at extreme close range.

When grappling with a suspect, officers are taught not to try to pull their gun as a first move, it would tie up one hand and be a encumberment.

Inside a building (or a starship) with lots of small rooms, and corridors with lots of twists and blind corners, a baseball bat would be equal to a gun.

It's not that Klingons don't carry gun, or never use them. But they recognize that other weapons have their own individual advantages.

Starfleet has to leave the people the Baku and the planet Baku alone, as well as the rest of nearby space that they had claimed and held, if Federation Law is at all similar to International law on current day Earth.

The Baku never claimed anything, and (apparently) possess no ability to hold the space around the planet. They didn't even know there were starships in orbit.

And even if they were to make a claim at some point, their claim would be no better than a similar claim the Sona could then make in response.

International law doesn't alway support "first come, first serve." And I can see the federation telling everyone (they knew about) far and wide that the brier patch was theirs.

Formal announcements, diplomatic proclamations, navigational advisories.

And the Baku? Making a public claim of any sort is the last thing they'd want to do, they were refugees in hiding. But it's not like they were some primitive natives without the means to do so.

And there no indication that the Baku (or the Sona) even considered the planet and the region to be theirs. If such a claim were possible, the Sona would have done so, they already claimed three (or two?) other worlds. I figure it was the Sona that approached the federation with the idea of collecting the particles.

Because they understood the region to be the property of the federation, and not their own species.

 

[locutus101]

Ahh, like with the wedding of Ben Sisko and Kasidy Yakes, where he wanted the wedding performed by a Admiral and she want it performed by a Minister.

....

I don't know. Cassidy didn't seem like a push over to me. Did she seem that way to you?

 

[Tenacity]

Yes, she caved in on who would marry them. And she wasn't happy about settling on Bajor, yet she and Benjamin were going to settle on Bajor anyway.

She probably didn't think Benjamin should arrest her for smuggling, but he did.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ben can win every argument with this woman... "Hey, didn't you used to be a terrorist?"

 

[locutus101]

Yes, she caved in on who would marry them. And she wasn't happy about settling on Bajor, yet she and Benjamin were going to settle on Bajor anyway.

These were trifles, barely worthy of mention. On the important things, like whether she should continue to work in spite of the war, she never agreed to anything, Sisko had to simply back off.

She probably didn't think Benjamin should arrest her for smuggling, but he did.

That's ridiculous. Of course, she knew he was going to arrest her, it was either that or becoming a criminal himself. Surely she didn't expect him to become a criminal for her sake after she betrayed him and put Jake and the entire station in Jeopardy. Who knew back then what edington was up to? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[locutus101]

Ben can win every argument with this woman... "Hey, didn't you used to be a terrorist?"

He'd better not do that while she's holding a baseball bat, though.

 

[Tenacity]

You've got to be kidding me.

Not at all. All examples of the point I was making, in their relationship, Benjamin is the dominate.

As for Kasidy continuing to operate her ship during the war, I'm convinced that if Sisko had put his foot down she would have stopped. He likely would have indulged her in some conversation on the matter, then his pre-existing decision would have been put into place.

Instead he merely expressed concern for her safety.

 

[locutus101]

Not at all. All examples of the point I was making, in their relationship, the male is the dominate.

I disagree. Those were trifles and she didn't mind them much. Had she started to argue about this bullshit then she would have looked like a shrew, which is not the sign of someone perceiving herself as an equal.

As for Kasidy continuing to operate her ship during the war, I'm convinced that if Sisko had put his foot down she would have stopped. He likely would have indulged her in some conversation on the matter, then his pre-existing decision would have been put into place.

This is completely baseless, in light of the fact, that she did NOT stop and that Sisko sensed himself that he'd better back off of it and that HE is the one that stopped

Besides when Sisko made his "big step" gaffe, Cassidy showed him how forceful she can be when the situation warrants it.

If you're going to simply make things up then there is no point in arguing about this anymore.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Cassiday worked for money.

That means that she didn't work inside the Federation, or for the Federation, so depending on when she, or her family dissolved their enfranchisement with the Federation since leaving Cestus III... Given the supposed duel possession of that planet, it's even possible that Cassiday was born inside, and raised inside the Gorn half of the planet.

As soon as Bajor entered the Federation, Cassiday would have to work for free, or leave to start up her business some place else where money exists, although purely from a health and safety/insurance side of things, I doubt the Federation would let her use her own ship, without calling eminent domain, and then what the hell do they need Yates for?

Ben didn't have to tell his girlfriend, come wife to stop, because her job was going to vanish within the next 2 to 3 years.

 

[locutus101]

....

Ben didn't have to tell his girlfriend, come wife to stop, because her job was going to vanish within the next 2 to 3 years.

Sisko wasn't concerned about stopping her in 2 to 3 years. His goal was to stop her immediately because of the war going on and the dangers of it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did I really have to say "in the beginning"?

You know before he told her to stop?

Why he didn't tell Kasiday to stop working before her told her to stop working?

 

[locutus101]

Did I really have to say "in the beginning"?

You know before he told her to stop?

Why he didn't tell Kasiday to stop working before her told her to stop working?

You're not making any sense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You started it.

Unnecessarily amended...

In the beginning, before the war started, Ben didn't have to tell his girlfriend, come wife to stop, because her job was going to vanish within the next 2 to 3 years.

The argument that you were having was that Ben Sisko was or was not a thug from the nineteen50s telling this woman her lot in life. The silly point I was trying to make is that when he first started to care for her and first started to be concerned for her safety, and he first wanted to tell Kasiday to quit, to be a full time wife, before the Dominion war started, is that Sisko did not have to confront, challenge and minimize her like that, since Kassiday's occupation had an expiry date which Sisko was in charge of hastening.

We saw the exact moment on screen when he told her to quit her job, it was the impetus of the conversation you were just having.

That's the moment when Sisko decided that he could no longer wait for Bajor to Join the Federation and render this woman's lively hood moot and redundant.

So, beeeeefffffffoooooooooorrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeee that moment for ####s sake, Benjamin could have waited her out, then prayed that she stayed, while hoping that her next job was safer than delivering cargo through a warzone.

Of course there's also the problem that as soon the Bajorans and Federation refused to pay her fair wages for honest work, that Yates would leave, and they would break up, so maybe Sisko dragged his feet and sabotaged Bajor's induction into the Federation just a smidge?

 

[Tenacity]

If you're going to simply make things up then there is no point in arguing about this anymore.

Ah, so I win the discussion by default? Yahhh.

As soon as Bajor entered the Federation, Cassiday would have to work for free

Oh I doubt that, if the Vulcans can have trade and commerce involving money, I don't see any reason the Bajoran can't too.