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I do not like MCU films

According to you and only you.

Such an embarrassment. The one, consistent thing about your posts is the number of times you are proven incorrect, a liar, or display a lack knowledge about subjects.

Batman never bothered making Bruce Wayne more than a plot device for decades, whereas Spider-Man was always more about Peter Parker than anyone else. That's a misrepresentation?

Your Batman comment proves its a terrible misrepresentation, born out of ignorance of the character's history. Further, Spider-Man was not "always" more about Parker. Entire arcs (if you ever read them) were dedicated to the exploration of not only his costumed side, but his villains, such as Silvermane, Kingpin, Doc Ock, the Green Goblin (father and son), et al.

The personal attacks started before that.

Yes, made by you against other members in this thread who did not worship the MCU.

So am I, you just can't handle that.

Not buying it. You conveniently shoveled that in here as a defense of inferior films, which illustrates how no one knowing real veterans who experienced combat would make a comparison to the guffaw-stuffed entries in MCU.

Enough to know he wasn't even portrayed as much of a detective for years either. Or Bruce Wayne being anything more than a plot device to explain Batman's resources.

This is too easy: you continue to prove you have not read Batman comics at all with posts like that above.

I have, anytime anyone says the MCU is "Kiddie" it's an attack.

That is not evidence. You claimed the MCU has been under attack from the start, and to his day, there's not an ounce of....you know...evidence.

Yes yes yes, we're all aware of your distaste for the fantastical and your love for the banal. Moving on...

More overuse (and inapplicable) use of "fantastical" along with "wondrous."


Mmm-hmm, and I suppose a Green Lantern film should entirely 100% focus on some drug-dealer on Earth. That's not how a Shared Universe works. They all co-exist and are having their own stories going on at the same time, it's not about one single story controlling absolutely everything and forcing everyone down one path.

Ridiculous. Connective structure refers to major events that have a bearing on the larger, fictional world. Learn what "shared universe" and its effect really means.

It's also a welcome rejection of that silly "grounded" approach that nearly destroyed CBMs in the first place.

"Destroyed?" Prove it.

Backed up my position.

No.

Your examples merely show your double-standards. You can take anything you use against the MCU and apply it to Dr Who and other long-runners.[/quite]

Translation: when examples are provided which hurt your own argument (as you were the one to introduce them here--ouch), you now pretend direct address with examples are the result of some anti-MCU stand. Not working.

Again, stop embarrassing yourself. Every film series will not all be achievements of high creative levels and quality. Unfortunately for you, most of the MCU misses those distinctions by a considerable distance.
 
Such an embarrassment.

That you can't handle that someone bothers to point out Batman's always been more archetype than character, we've established that.

If he were more a character, the stories would've focused equally on Bruce Wayne's life separate from Batman and personal conflicts he had with Alfred and Gordon. Instead of them just being background supporters.

Until you show me stories where that happened, I'm afraid the only one misunderstanding Batman here is you.

Your Batman comment proves its a terrible misrepresentation, born out of ignorance of the character's history.

It's true though, Bruce Wayne (and most DC secret identity characters) was always more just a plot device than a character. It's what eventually led to the "Bruce Wayne is just a mask and Batman is his real identity" because writers realized it was too late to make Bruce anything BUT a fake persona.

Further, Spider-Man was not "always" more about Parker.

Maybe recently, but for the most part the Spider-Man series has always been more about Peter's life than anything else. It's what made him stand out instead of Peter Parker just being a plot device. His villains didn't get any depth to them until around the 80s or 90s, because the series worked out fine with a protagonist who wasn't just an archetype.


By those who despise the fantastical and want all CBMs to be 'grounded' in every way. No outer space adventures, no real costumes, no positive emotions, villains being the whole focus of the plot, etc.

Not buying it

Too bad, not every warzone survivor acts like your Oscar Bait preconceptions of how these people act.

This is too easy:

But it's true, for years he's less a detective and just like any other costumed vigilante. Of course, it's pretty easy to be a detective when your villains do stuff like leave calling cards...

That is not evidence. You claimed the MCU has been under attack from the start,

Anyone who wants the MCU to be "grounded" is attacking it. And that's been happening since day one.

More overuse (and inapplicable) use of "fantastical" along with "wondrous.

It's true, every instance of the MCU embracing the fantastical, you decry it because it's giving Nolan and Singer's take on things a well-deserved middle finger.

Ridiculous. Connective structure refers to major events that have a bearing on the larger, fictional world.

And for Thor, a Nuke is not that. In fact, it's not major enough for anyone really.

"Destroyed?" Prove it.

I'm gonna be straight here, I never liked Dark Knight much and always felt it was overrated. And we know WHY, though you'll take offense if I outright say it.

Nolan and Singer's way of doing movies, it wholly advocated that anything fantastical was bad and must be stamped out. Then the MCU showed it could still be well-done, and that's what Nolan fans and Singer fans just can't stand. Mainly because Singer fans and Nolan fans dislike CBMs that aren't ashamed of themselves the way Nolan and Singer were ashamed of the source material.

Leave it to Singer, the Asgardians would be a bunch of insane humans who live in some musky castle in Ireland or whatever.

Leave it to Nolan, Captain America would be some PTSD returning veteran who wears a blue T-Shirt with a star on it. He fights a Neo-Nazi skinhead who paints his face red and sells drugs in his Apartment building, and then randomly Cap stands around and gives an inhuman monologue bemoaning the state of the economy.


Yes. You just can't admit it. Or that you're the only one here who agrees with your position.

Translation: when examples are provided which hurt your own argument (as you were the one to introduce them here--ouch)

Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Star Trek, Dr Who, etc. They all support the MCU. But Reactionaries can't admit it, just like you can't.

Unfortunately for you, most of the MCU misses those distinctions by a considerable distance.

This is like saying Dr Who should be all about him fighting the Daleks instead of having other adventures. After all, shouldn't everything about his series be "connected"?
 
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The Singer X-Men films are still living in the late 90s era of comic book movies where they were basically ashamed to have anything to do with the source material. It was post Batman and Robin and they were clearly trying to distance themselves. They're basically generic scifi action films full of leather costumes because we thought that was cool for a hot minute. But we've moved on. Hell Spider-Man was able to be fairly faithful to the source material and have a costume that looked great on screen and it was only a few years after X-Men. The cast is amazing and really that's the only thing that truly works in them because Singer can't really shoot action well.

I'd really love to see a decent reboot that actually changes the tone and direction of the franchise because we just keep getting the same movie over and over again. First Class (Deadpool too, but I think of it as a separate thing) is really the only one that still works. X2 was great when it came out, but it hasn't aged well. Maybe a story that doesn't revolve around some human experimenting on mutants and the X-Men must fight them and deal with the humans who fear them. We get it, they represent any minority you want.

But there are other stories. Maybe actually do a Dark Phoenix movie where Jean becomes a radically different person or some of the outer space stuff. I'd actually like to see some character development.
 
Depends, sometimes evolving the character a bit doesn't hurt.

This isn't evolution. This is Orwellian revisionism.

Up till 2007 the character was evolving anyways in a logical manner that fit the themes and persona of the character. Ever since, in an effort to recapture a version of the character that no longer exists, the Spider-Man franchise has been undergoing rounds of retreading, character assassinations, and shallow gimmicks that are style over substance. I have yet to hear a good explanation how any of the recent comics are about the stuff that the franchise was built on or are a logical continuation of the original story.

I doubt that nowadays anyone can still make a living as a photojournalist. And he was always portrayed as a genius. Really, it's a little ridiculous that he has still to live on (below) minimum wage.

That's not the part that's the problem. The problem is that an essential part of the character is that he's a working class character who lives a normal life (not counting his superhero job). The current status quo goofs that up and has turned the character from an unique one into an Iron Man ripoff. (While the photographer gig will always be classic and be a favorite, the teaching and police lab jobs he's sometimes held were good improvements and made more sense than the Iron Man-stuff they've forced on the character now.)

(Look, this is all opinion, of course, but, as a life-long Spider-Man fan, I've seen the stuff that made me a fan -- the stuff that made the franchise matter and be a cut above the norm -- torn out and replaced with elements that are IMHO, asinine, to put it kindly. When comparing Marvel's comic branch and Sony, I honestly trust the latter with the character more, since, despite all their missteps, they've shown, in comparison, to have the superior grasp on the character.)

This is a very sensitive subject for me, as you can tell, so I apologize in advance for offending anyone, but I stand by what I've typed.
 
That you can't handle that someone bothers to point out Batman's always been more archetype than character, we've established that.

1. There is no "we've."

2. You have pointed out something that is patently untrue. If you cannot be bothered to familiarize yourself with the content...which requires reading the issue, then you are out of your element, and only embarrass yourself with statements like that made above. Since you are the one making a claim that Batman was lacking your fantasy charge, the burden of proof is yours.

I do not expect you to ever refer to anything other than your inexperienced opinion.

Maybe recently, but for the most part the Spider-Man series has always been more about Peter's life than anything else. It's what made him stand out instead of Peter Parker just being a plot device. His villains didn't get any depth to them until around the 80s or 90s, because the series worked out fine with a protagonist who wasn't just an archetype.

Wait a second--"maybe recently?" The history I refer to is the Silver & Bronze Age stories. That you did not know that....

By those who despise the fantastical and want all CBMs to be 'grounded' in every way. No outer space adventures, no real costumes, no positive emotions, villains being the whole focus of the plot, etc.

Too bad, not every warzone survivor acts like your Oscar Bait preconceptions of how these people act.

Continued lies and misrepresentation of those real people who served by pretending you know any. You are not convincing anyone--other than how low you will go to defend piss poor, cartoony movies.

Further, your resentment of Oscar worthy films is merely your bitter realization that the part of the MCU you defend is not worth considering for much. Sci-fi or fantasy films such as Star Wars were nominated for Best Picture, Best Director and Best Supporting Actor (Alec Guinness) among many; The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King swept the Oscars with a record 11 wins, including Best Picture. So, whether in the past, or in recent history, fantasy is recognized. I know that your Oscar resentment stems from the MCU deservedly being ignored forever, but a series smothered by G.I. Joe cartoon-type silliness will never be recognized.

But it's true, for years he's less a detective and just like any other costumed vigilante. Of course, it's pretty easy to be a detective when your villains do stuff like leave calling cards...

No, it is not true. Again, you have not read any of the character sources you refer to, hence the continued, debunked fairy tales about vigilante characters sharing any essential similarity to the driving essence of Batman.

Anyone who wants the MCU to be "grounded" is attacking it. And that's been happening since day one.

Your claim was that it was "attacked from the beginning," and days into this, you still fail to provide a single point of evidence to support that claim.


Evidence of you irrational bias:

It's true, every instance of the MCU embracing the fantastical, you decry it because it's giving Nolan and Singer's take on things a well-deserved middle finger.

I'm gonna be straight here, I never liked Dark Knight much and always felt it was overrated. And we know WHY, though you'll take offense if I outright say it.[/quote]

So, for you, if the films are not Universal Studios stunt shows mixed with Transformers thinly disguised at superhero films, you resent and mischaracterize them. Too bad for you the Nolan Bat-films were celebrated more than any MCU film--including the all too few solid entries.

Leave it to Nolan, Captain America would be some PTSD returning veteran who wears a blue T-Shirt with a star on it

To use your wording of "grounded"--

  • Johnston "grounded" The First Avenger--one of the stated concerns was creating realistic action, and designing technology, costumes and the general world that could be believed to have been conceived in the real world of the 1940s.
  • The Russos hammered that "grounded" agenda for Captain America in The Winter Soldier; most of the film used situations that could just as easily fit the more reserved Bond movies (e.g. From Russia with Love, License to Kill, etc.), and ooohh! Guess what? The Winter Soldier is near universally considered the best of the Marvel movies. Not a surprise, as it marries source with numerous realistic elements and landscape audiences can believe without questioning.
  • Moreover, have you noticed that the Cap films deliberately dulled the colors and more fanciful designs of his costume with every film after his return in The Avengers? Nolan and Singer are far from the only filmmakers to believe that some comic costuming is outrageous and does not connect with audiences who--by the way--live in reality. That's especially true of Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye and Black Widow.

You conveniently skipped over all of that in your inapplicable " fantastical" / "wondrous" fairy tale claims.


Yes. You just can't admit it. Or that you're the only one here who agrees with your position.

I laugh. You cannot even muster support for junk, nor have you debunked the OP's premise.

Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Star Trek, Dr Who, etc. They all support the MCU. But Reactionaries can't admit it, just like you can't.

No, they do not. Most MCU films have never seen a moment like the best of SW, IJ or DW.
 
1. There is no "we've."

Yes, there is. So far the only "I" here is you.

. You have pointed out something that is patently untrue. If you cannot be bothered to familiarize yourself with the content...

Batman as an archetype, Bruce Wayne little more than a plot device to explain his wealth instead of being a character, Gordon and Alfred's potential for character conflict wasted. It's all there.

Wait a second--"maybe recently?" The history I refer to is the Silver & Bronze Age stories.

All of which were about him (Peter Parker) first and foremost, the villains second (if at all).

Continued lies and misrepresentation of those real people who served

Not in your Oscar Bait scenarios, but in real war zones. People don't act the way you expect them to in some American War flick in WWII.

Further, your resentment of Oscar worthy films

Just the ones which go out of their way to fit the Oscar Bait stereotype. The ones Tropic Thunder rightfully skewered (war exploitation, mentally handicapped people, etc).

Sci-fi or fantasy films such as Star Wars were nominated for Best Picture, Best Director and Best Supporting Actor (Alec Guinness) among many;

Name recognition for Guinness, especially considering how he sleepwalked through the role.

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
swept the Oscars with a record 11 wins, including Best Picture.

Again, name recognition due to LOTR's literary history. You want to convince me that Sci-fi gets that kind of respect, then District 9 should've won Oscars.

Your views on it are probably closer to "I had to walk 5 miles in bare feet to get to school!" at the rate you're going at.

I know that your Oscar resentment stems from the MCU deservedly being ignored forever, but a series smothered by G.I. Joe cartoon-type silliness will never be recognized.

Nah, it's just the well-known understanding that CBMs that aren't ashamed of themselves have a harder time than those that sell-out for that creatively bankrupt "Grounded" shlock.

Hell, the recent Oscar debates over HOW bland they've become was a welcome sight.

No, it is not true.

It is, the Adam West show pretty much admitted to it due to IT being one of the only unashamed Batman series.

Your claim was that it was "attacked from the beginning,"

Anyone who says it should be more "grounded". No costumes, no lives outside of their Hero lives, no Humanity.

So, for you, if the films are not Universal Studios stunt shows mixed with Transformers thinly disguised at superhero films, you resent and mischaracterize them. Too bad for you the Nolan Bat-films were celebrated more than any MCU film--including the all too few solid entries.

Nolan capitalized on the shame people feel towards CBMs that embrace what they are and made sure his advocated the "It's okay to feel ashamed" viewpoint. Which got him an audience. Then the you-know-what with TDK happened which made the film nigh-untouchable.

(And no, it had absolutely nothing to do with the plot or acting or cinematography or any of that "Crime Drama" schlock)

If it came out now, TDK wouldn't have gotten such a positive reception.

To use your wording of "grounded"--

  • Johnston "grounded" The First Avenger--one of the stated concerns was creating realistic action, and designing technology, costumes and the general world that could be believed to have been conceived in the real world of the 1940s.
Aside from the whole Super-Soldier stuff, the Asgardian tech being used to make sci-fi superweapons...

  • The Russos hammered that "grounded" agenda for Captain America in The Winter Soldier; most of the film used situations that could just as easily fit the more reserved Bond movies (e.g. From Russia with Love, License to Kill, etc.), and ooohh! Guess what? The Winter Soldier is near universally considered the best of the Marvel movies.
Except for the Helicarriers, the Zola AI, the Nazi Cult Conspiracy, etc. None of that is grounded.

Calling these films "grounded" is people struggling to just say "I like comic book films that aren't ashamed of themselves!"

  • Moreover, have you noticed that the Cap films deliberately dulled the colors and more fanciful designs of his costume with every film after his return in The Avengers? Nolan and Singer are far from the only filmmakers to believe that some comic costuming is outrageous and does not connect with audiences who--by the way--live in reality. That's especially true of Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye and Black Widow.

But his costume is still closer to the comics that Nolan and Singer's approach. And aside from Falcon, those others still have outfits close their comic counterparts.

"Grounded" is expelling all fantastical elements in all ways from the storyline. No superpowers, nothing extraordinary, none of it. That's Nolan to a tee.

I laugh. You cannot even muster support for junk

Reading any other post than mine helps, though you clearly aren't doing that.

No, they do not.

Yes, they do. Tony first suiting up, Steve's conversation with Dr Erskine, the first Helicarrier reveal. That's off the top of my head, but it's up there with the classics.

Hell, I bet you can't even mention any "Classic" moments of those films that can't be torn into.

Most MCU films have never seen a moment like the best of SW, IJ or DW.

They have, you just have to not be so ashamed you're blind to it.

Hell, First Avenger bothered pointing out that not all Germans were Nazis. Most "grounded" War films can't be bothered to give that nuance. I doubt your war stories would.
 
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I'm gonna be straight here, I never liked Dark Knight much and always felt it was overrated.

May I ask why? Do you think there still worth seeing? (I've never seen them and have been a bit curious about them.)

Moreover, have you noticed that the Cap films deliberately dulled the colors and more fanciful designs of his costume with every film after his return in The Avengers?

According to the commentary on the Winter Soldier Blu-Ray, the reason they did that for that film was to make the return to the more colorful and comic-booky WWII uniform pack more of a punch, so I'm not sure if it was for the same reasons as you think, at least in that instance.

Nolan and Singer are far from the only filmmakers to believe that some comic costuming is outrageous and does not connect with audiences who--by the way--live in reality. That's especially true of Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye and Black Widow.

Wasn't Black Widow's jumpsuits a pretty close approximation of her comic book ones? Agree on Hawkeye, though, big time!

The Russos hammered that "grounded" agenda for Captain America in The Winter Soldier; most of the film used situations that could just as easily fit the more reserved Bond movies (e.g. From Russia with Love, License to Kill, etc.), and ooohh! Guess what? The Winter Soldier is near universally considered the best of the Marvel movies. Not a surprise, as it marries source with numerous realistic elements and landscape audiences can believe without questioning.

Marvel's other most popular film is arguable Guardians of the Galaxy, which is as ungrounded and fantastic as you can get. So, it would seem that people like having both grounded movies and ones that are heavier into fantasy. I think both work really well on their own terms.


No, they do not. Most MCU films have never seen a moment like the best of SW, IJ or DW.

A few nominations:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbM-oIS9_r8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW8_usG_B0E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8ohTJp3PAA

Also (from Civil War):

- Tony Stark meets Peter Parker
- Airport fight scene
- Iron Man vs. Captain America and Winter Solider

And that's just the tip of the iceberg (I'll provide more, if you wish), so I think I can be forgiven for disagreeing with your assessment.
 
May I ask why? Do you think there still worth seeing? (I've never seen them and have been a bit curious about them.)

You quoted another member who said the Dark Knight films were overrated:

May I ask why? Do you think there still worth seeing? (I've never seen them and have been a bit curious about them.)

Moving on..

According to the commentary on the Winter Soldier Blu-Ray, the reason they did that for that film was to make the return to the more colorful and comic-booky WWII uniform pack more of a punch, so I'm not sure if it was for the same reasons as you think, at least in that instance.

The return to the costume was to act as a visual link to the WW2 past for Bucky. It served a form of psychological symmetry to continue bringing his memory of the past face to face with the present, but after that, Cap's costumes in AoU and CW were back to the darker, non-flashy, quasi-militaristic design.

Wasn't Black Widow's jumpsuits a pretty close approximation of her comic book ones? Agree on Hawkeye, though, big time!

Widow's movie costumes are more in like with the kind of spy costumes used in films for decades, and less the seamless bodysuit originally designed by John Romita.

Yes, Hawkeye's colorful comic book costume was jettisoned in favor of a standard tactical outfit more at home in any espionage film than a superhero film, the same with the Falcon--probably the biggest departure of any of the adapted characters.
 
You quoted another member who said the Dark Knight films were overrated:

Moving on..

Oh.

The return to the costume was to act as a visual link to the WW2 past for Bucky. It served a form of psychological symmetry to continue bringing his memory of the past face to face with the present, but after that, Cap's costumes in AoU and CW were back to the darker, non-flashy, quasi-militaristic design.

Well, Avengers one also had the more colorful design, too. I'd have to double-check on Ultron and Civil War, but I thought they were closer to the First Avenger one than the Winter Solider one.

Widow's movie costumes are more in like with the kind of spy costumes used in films for decades, and less the seamless bodysuit originally designed by John Romita.

They still look pretty close to me, barring more details.[/QUOTE]
 

No problem.

Well, Avengers one also had the more colorful design, too. I'd have to double-check on Ultron and Civil War, but I thought they were closer to the First Avenger one than the Winter Solider one.

Remember how I explained that:

Moreover, have you noticed that the Cap films deliberately dulled the colors and more fanciful designs of his costume with every film after his return in The Avengers? Nolan and Singer are far from the only filmmakers to believe that some comic costuming is outrageous and does not connect with audiences who--by the way--live in reality. That's especially true of Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye and Black Widow.

I mentioned the Avengers costume, but right after that, the costume lost those flashy colors and designs in favor of darker tones and the quasi-military style, right up to Civil War.

They still look pretty close to me, barring more details.

I think the film version lacks the comic book design's style; if you can see the movie version walk into any spy movie and not think she's out of place, then that's how far the costume has been altered.
 
Remember how I explained that:

Moreover, have you noticed that the Cap films deliberately dulled the colors and more fanciful designs of his costume with every film after his return in The Avengers? Nolan and Singer are far from the only filmmakers to believe that some comic costuming is outrageous and does not connect with audiences who--by the way--live in reality. That's especially true of Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye and Black Widow.

I mentioned the Avengers costume, but right after that, the costume lost those flashy colors and designs in favor of darker tones and the quasi-military style, right up to Civil War.

I just looked up some stills online, and in all honesty, I don't think there's that much difference between his different costumes. They've always been quasi-military style, IMHO.

I think the film version lacks the comic book design's style; if you can see the movie version walk into any spy movie and not think she's out of place, then that's how far the costume has been altered.

I'm afraid I don't understand.
 
The suit is slightly duller in Civil War than Age of Ultron. Although it could be a change in lighting or color processing and not a change in the actual color of the real suit. There are a few other details changed, but nothing major.
 
I just looked up some stills online, and in all honesty, I don't think there's that much difference between his different costumes. They've always been quasi-military style, IMHO.

By necessity, it was quasi-military in The First Avenger, but for the first group outing (Avengers), it was as flashy and colorful as the Donner Superman's costume. However, after Avengers, the more traditional military accoutrements returned, while the colors were increasingly dull. Add that to the similarly toned down, "realistic" costumes for Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye, and Black Widow, and one can say the MCU moved away from the "comic-booky," colorful look as much as the Nolan, Singer and new DC movies.



I'm afraid I don't understand.

Meaning Black Widow's movie costume is so lacking in the comic-book trappings, that the character would look at home in any non-superhero spy movie. She would raise no eyebrows in a Bond movie, while Loki or The Avengers version of Cap's costume (for example) would be completely out of place.
 
By necessity, it was quasi-military in The First Avenger, but for the first group outing (Avengers), it was as flashy and colorful as the Donner Superman's costume. However, after Avengers, the more traditional military accoutrements returned, while the colors were increasingly dull. Add that to the similarly toned down, "realistic" costumes for Falcon, Wanda, Hawkeye, and Black Widow, and one can say the MCU moved away from the "comic-booky," colorful look as much as the Nolan, Singer and new DC movies.

As I recall, the MCU movies seem to favor finding a middle ground between the original comic book designs and realism, as opposed to say, the X-Men, movies, which seem to prefer redesigning things to be as "realistic" as possible.



Meaning Black Widow's movie costume is so lacking in the comic-book trappings, that the character would look at home in any non-superhero spy movie. She would raise no eyebrows in a Bond movie, while Loki or The Avengers version of Cap's costume (for example) would be completely out of place.

I think you might need to point out the specific trappings that the MCU leaves out, since IMHO, not only does MCU Black Widow look like she walked off the page, even the comic book version looks like she could be in a non-superhero spy movie.
 
Yeah, Black Widow normally wears a black catsuit with a logo on it. Last I checked it's pretty close to the MCU version.
 
Even if the costumes have become more grounded looking, the movies themselves have still been pretty comic booky, so they're obviously not backing away from that overall. We still have Wanda, Vision, Ant-Man/Giant-Man, and now Spider-Man.
 
Exactly how many organizations did HYDRA infiltrate, aside from SHIELD? "The Winter Soldier" revealed that a U.S. Senator was a HYDRA agent. The movie, along with "Agents of SHIELD" also revealed that two members of the World Security Council were HYDRA agents. So . . . that's it? One intelligence agency, a U.S. senator and two members of the WSC? One would think that HYDRA had infiltrated other organizations, agencies and corporations. If they did, why has the MCU failed to indicate this?
 
Iron Man 2 and Winter Soldier show us a lead member of the Senate who sits on most senate committees was also Hydra, along with others he met with during TWS, so it looks like members of the senate/supreme court/civil service *were*, they just couldn't show us every single one.
 
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