There wasn't any time travel during Counterpoint. What are you talking about?
Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"
- Thread starter LJones41
- Start date
There wasn't any time travel during Counterpoint. What are you talking about?
The actor who played one of the equinox 5, Brian Sofin, Mark Rogerson, isn't a "regular" actor. He's a background actor. That may be another word for extra, or they might be slightly different jobs, I don't know. Mark is in four episodes of Voyager. A Devore Guard in Counter point, Brian Sofin in Equinox 1 + 2, and an unnamed guard who is probably Brian Sofin in Repentence.
For Brian Sofin, to surgically disguise himself as a Devore in season four's counterpoint, he would have to have time travelled there from some point in the Future under Captain or Admiral Janeway's orders, unless Ransom had been working with the Devore all along and Kashak never bothered to mention the other human ship under his thumb who had unbeknownst to him, planted a mole in his ranks.
For Brian Sofin, to surgically disguise himself as a Devore in season four's counterpoint, he would have to have time travelled there from some point in the Future under Captain or Admiral Janeway's orders, unless Ransom had been working with the Devore all along and Kashak never bothered to mention the other human ship under his thumb who had unbeknownst to him, planted a mole in his ranks.
Or it could just be that he was playing a different Character, like the female Q who used to be Worf's girlfriend. Or the hirogen, who used to be Worf's brother and Sisko's son.
Doctor Selar? Yeah, she's awesome. 
Obviously the same woman, and obviously why Q is so venomous towards Worf.
(Suzie also played an Andorian on Enteprise.)
Obviously the same woman, and obviously why Q is so venomous towards Worf.
(Suzie also played an Andorian on Enteprise.)
If memory serves it was in the episode where Data meets his grandpa. Wait, you said Andorian, in that episode she was a Vulcan, I think.
The Andorian was Shran's girlfriend.
Voyager was the first Trek show I was able to watch from the beginning...I was nine and already familiar with TNG (but only from re-runs), the movies, a bit of DS9, and a precious handful of TOS shows. So a lot of the show was new and exciting to me. I'm starting to understand the perspectives of those who had watched TNG and DS9 from the beginning, and came into Voyager hoping for a totally different kind of show and ended up being disappointed. But for me, it was awesome. I loved Tom and Harry's friendship, the Captain Proton holodeck programs, the callbacks to previous Treks, and the Borg. Holy cow, was I excited about that. I had known (somehow) that the Borg were in the Delta Quadrant and it was only a matter of time before Voyager ran into them. When they finally appeared on the cover of TV Guide I just about exploded. I taped that episode--on VHS so I could re-watch it; on audio tape so I could listen to it in my own room whenever I wanted. 
During the fifth season, the local station stopped rebroadcasting the network feeds from the UPN station in the city, and I had no way of watching Voyager. We didn't have cable, but we did get the internet. I started looking up Star Trek reviews and recaps to find out what I was missing, and boy, was it clear that Voyager had gone downhill and fast. The writers had gone off the rails. There were random Borg children. Voyager kept getting conveniently flung closer to home. There were just too many shuttle crashes, holodeck shows, and time travel episodes. And some of these plots were just absurd. Janeway falling in love with a hologram? Neelix telling campfire stories? The Doctor becoming a music star? It was like they were turning one of my favorite shows into a cartoon. It was probably just as well that it had disappeared from my world when it did.
And actually, I came to realize, there were all kinds of problems with Voyager to begin with--the Maquis and Starfleet conflict never really erupted, shuttles and proton torpedoes magically replenished themselves...I mean, I remembered some pretty good episodes, but when you compare it as a whole to other Treks, it was just flawed. It's a shame it never lived up to its early promise.
When I finally got around to watching Voyager in its entirety, however, (finished this year), I found that I actually liked the majority of seasons six and seven. Not only that, but some of the most ridiculous episodes in summary became some of my favorite episodes on viewing. And I started to really wonder: What exactly was wrong with shuttle crashes, time travel, and holodeck shows? These are usually devices to get the story started; it wasn't as though there's a generic template for each kind that was endlessly rehashed. Both "Real Life" and "The Killing Game" are holodeck stories, but the two shows have completely different tones and themes. And if the stories are good, what does it matter how many of them happen in a given season? And is a show's worth really determined by how closely it hews to the original concept?
A lot of the criticism surrounding Voyager is based on the show itself, true. (Seven's ridiculous costume is something we can probably all agree on.) Some of it is personal preference; I've seen those who despise B'Elanna and Neelix because of poor acting/writing, who are two of my favorite characters because of good acting/writing. (We're obviously never going to agree.) Some of is highly specific pet peeves that I frankly don't understand. (My Aunt is a long-time Trekkie who nevertheless dislikes the lack of strong female characters in Next Gen and TOS. Yet she refuses to watch Voyager "Because the male writers put Captain Janeway off on the other side of the galaxy so she can't challenge the male-only Admiralty." About two seconds on Memory Alpha should render that opinion invalid, but she still holds fast to it.)
But I think it's high past time that the common knowledge I've seen online that Voyager is the weaker of the Treks and never really lived up to its premise be re-examined, at the very least. I can see where some aspects might have been disappointing when Next Gen had only recently ended, and when TV programs were starting to grow in ways that Voyager wasn't. And a lot of opinions are entangled in the behind-the-scenes drama, which at this point is a matter of historical record. But twenty years later, a lot of that can be put to one side. I'd recommend a Voyager re-watch for the skeptics--you might find that it's better than you remember. (I promise, making it to the end of Season 7 does not turn you into a space salamander. )
TC
During the fifth season, the local station stopped rebroadcasting the network feeds from the UPN station in the city, and I had no way of watching Voyager. We didn't have cable, but we did get the internet. I started looking up Star Trek reviews and recaps to find out what I was missing, and boy, was it clear that Voyager had gone downhill and fast. The writers had gone off the rails. There were random Borg children. Voyager kept getting conveniently flung closer to home. There were just too many shuttle crashes, holodeck shows, and time travel episodes. And some of these plots were just absurd. Janeway falling in love with a hologram? Neelix telling campfire stories? The Doctor becoming a music star? It was like they were turning one of my favorite shows into a cartoon. It was probably just as well that it had disappeared from my world when it did.
And actually, I came to realize, there were all kinds of problems with Voyager to begin with--the Maquis and Starfleet conflict never really erupted, shuttles and proton torpedoes magically replenished themselves...I mean, I remembered some pretty good episodes, but when you compare it as a whole to other Treks, it was just flawed. It's a shame it never lived up to its early promise.
When I finally got around to watching Voyager in its entirety, however, (finished this year), I found that I actually liked the majority of seasons six and seven. Not only that, but some of the most ridiculous episodes in summary became some of my favorite episodes on viewing. And I started to really wonder: What exactly was wrong with shuttle crashes, time travel, and holodeck shows? These are usually devices to get the story started; it wasn't as though there's a generic template for each kind that was endlessly rehashed. Both "Real Life" and "The Killing Game" are holodeck stories, but the two shows have completely different tones and themes. And if the stories are good, what does it matter how many of them happen in a given season? And is a show's worth really determined by how closely it hews to the original concept?
A lot of the criticism surrounding Voyager is based on the show itself, true. (Seven's ridiculous costume is something we can probably all agree on.) Some of it is personal preference; I've seen those who despise B'Elanna and Neelix because of poor acting/writing, who are two of my favorite characters because of good acting/writing. (We're obviously never going to agree.) Some of is highly specific pet peeves that I frankly don't understand. (My Aunt is a long-time Trekkie who nevertheless dislikes the lack of strong female characters in Next Gen and TOS. Yet she refuses to watch Voyager "Because the male writers put Captain Janeway off on the other side of the galaxy so she can't challenge the male-only Admiralty." About two seconds on Memory Alpha should render that opinion invalid, but she still holds fast to it.)
But I think it's high past time that the common knowledge I've seen online that Voyager is the weaker of the Treks and never really lived up to its premise be re-examined, at the very least. I can see where some aspects might have been disappointing when Next Gen had only recently ended, and when TV programs were starting to grow in ways that Voyager wasn't. And a lot of opinions are entangled in the behind-the-scenes drama, which at this point is a matter of historical record. But twenty years later, a lot of that can be put to one side. I'd recommend a Voyager re-watch for the skeptics--you might find that it's better than you remember. (I promise, making it to the end of Season 7 does not turn you into a space salamander.
)TC
All the shows used reset buttons. The ones that worked were the ones where the characters had to earn the right to push it, IMHO.
Maybe, but they were on the Borg's home turf.
Maybe, although I remember a lot of characters getting some starring stories during seasons 4 - 7. For example, Torres' struggle with her Klingon heritage went on up till the end of the show. Paris and Torres getting together and marrying was a plot thread that took off in that timeframe. (I did always feel that Chakotay was one of the weaker characters, though.)
Agree on Chakotay (although I didn't hate him.) Kim was fine, IMHO. Torres was a favorite of mine since I thought she was interesting.
Sounds like Star Trek doing business as usual.
This started in TNG, so if VOY made this mistake, they're not alone.
I actually liked this, given that the idea of different people making peace and working together is a very classic Star Trek theme. It's worth taking into account that Chaotay was committed to making the unified crew work from square one. Also, the Seska and Jonas story arc played over the first could seasons and "Worst Case Scenario," "The Voyager Conspiracy," and "Repression" were aired long after season one.
Don't remember these that well.
Phased out early on.
Just like the rest of Star Trek?
I found them very likable.
Often on on the show, they trade for goods or harvest resources when they find them. They also have access to replicators for repairs, so it's not as big a deal as you would think. (I will admit that seeing Voyager getting more banged up over time -- maybe even patched up with alien tech -- would've been cool, though.)
When I finally got around to watching Voyager in its entirety, however, (finished this year), I found that I actually liked the majority of seasons six and seven. Not only that, but some of the most ridiculous episodes in summary became some of my favorite episodes on viewing. And I started to really wonder: What exactly was wrong with shuttle crashes, time travel, and holodeck shows? These are usually devices to get the story started; it wasn't as though there's a generic template for each kind that was endlessly rehashed. Both "Real Life" and "The Killing Game" are holodeck stories, but the two shows have completely different tones and themes. And if the stories are good, what does it matter how many of them happen in a given season? And is a show's worth really determined by how closely it hews to the original concept?
A lot of the criticism surrounding Voyager is based on the show itself, true. (Seven's ridiculous costume is something we can probably all agree on.) Some of it is personal preference; I've seen those who despise B'Elanna and Neelix because of poor acting/writing, who are two of my favorite characters because of good acting/writing. (We're obviously never going to agree.) Some of is highly specific pet peeves that I frankly don't understand. (My Aunt is a long-time Trekkie who nevertheless dislikes the lack of strong female characters in Next Gen and TOS. Yet she refuses to watch Voyager "Because the male writers put Captain Janeway off on the other side of the galaxy so she can't challenge the male-only Admiralty." About two seconds on Memory Alpha should render that opinion invalid, but she still holds fast to it.)
But I think it's high past time that the common knowledge I've seen online that Voyager is the weaker of the Treks and never really lived up to its premise be re-examined, at the very least. I can see where some aspects might have been disappointing when Next Gen had only recently ended, and when TV programs were starting to grow in ways that Voyager wasn't. And a lot of opinions are entangled in the behind-the-scenes drama, which at this point is a matter of historical record. But twenty years later, a lot of that can be put to one side. I'd recommend a Voyager re-watch for the skeptics--you might find that it's better than you remember. (I promise, making it to the end of Season 7 does not turn you into a space salamander.
TC
It's a matter of perspective and taste, are most VOY episodes bad? No but neither are they great they are just average and the show didn't really seem to hit the consistant quality of later seasons of TNG and DSN. So consistancy can play a part in how it's percived. What's the point in having a concept/premise if you don't plan on adhering to it, it's a disservice to your viewers. VOY simply for many never really lived up to it's premise. You could move it the AQ and very little would have to be changed.
And the replicators aren't magic they have their limitations. We are told in dialouge "That they have no way to replace their torpedeos" by extension that means they can't replace hull panels, shuttles etc.. in fact any larger pieces of technology/equipment. It's not my fault as a viewer to expect them to hold true to what they have told me about the world they created.
Male dominated admiralty in TNG, oddly enough the first Admiral I think about from TNG was female Adm. Necheyev.
Besides you could argue that those that critise VOY don't hate the show, they do/did have a passion for the show they simply felt it could be so much more than it was.
What's funny is the remark of the lizard guy that Voyager seemed to function as a matriarchy while the lizard's ruler is a female. I wonder how much a writer must have imbibed to forget about his own plot.
The Voth were a Theocracy.
Yes, their pope was a lady, but cultists tend to stay in power for as long as they want to, until they die, until someone kills them, or God comes down from the clouds.
A "democratic theocracy" just sounds weird.
Oh no, imagine a meritocratic theocracy?
A religion quiz, once a year, and who every wins, gets top marks is in charge.
Yes, their pope was a lady, but cultists tend to stay in power for as long as they want to, until they die, until someone kills them, or God comes down from the clouds.
A "democratic theocracy" just sounds weird.
Oh no, imagine a meritocratic theocracy?
A religion quiz, once a year, and who every wins, gets top marks is in charge.
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There were several female admirals. I can think of 3 or 4 right now. Nechehev, Satie, Brandt (commandant of the academy, right), Jono's human grandmother.
You quoted another user who said they didn't find Voyager's characters to be as likable as TNG's. The opposite was true for me. I liked Voyager's characters, warts and all. They were not perfect by any means. I liked them better than TNG's characters. With the exception of Data, he's probably my favorite character overall in all of Trek.
That's what I really loved about the Voyager characters. On TNG they were all perfect people making all the right decisions. The Voyager cast was much more interesting. They all had some kind of interesting background. Tuvok as a young man was going to abandon logic because he fell in love with a girl, Tom had his accident, got kicked out of starfleet, got caught as a maquis and sent to prison, B'Elanna had her father issues her klingon issues and leaving starfleet, Chakotay had to basically betray his entire way of life just to join starfleet, Neelix basically watched his whole family killed, evn Kes went against the ways of her people to go to the surface.
EXACTLY. And Janeway herself was promoted to Admiral. But try telling my aunt that...
TC
I LIKE the crew on TNG. They are good characters etc. If given the choice, however, I wouldn't hang around with them. I'd feel like Reg Barclay in their presence. I think I would probably feel more comfortable with the crew of Voyager (and DS9 but I'd hang out with them for different reasons).
Tuvix thought that too, until they all watched him (an innocent person) being taken away to be put to death (by a coldhearted bitch) without even a hint of protestation.
Each time I see that scene it sends chills down my spine.
This is exactly why I love that part
I think it was very well done. From the way the crew doesn't say anything, to Tuvix begging for his life. I think it's a great dramatic scene. Like you said, it gave me chillsI am sorry... What???
