Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion

[eyeresist]

I'm watching the EC on BD right now and I'm only about 20 minutes or so into it and, yeah, the added stuff so-far doesn't seem to do a whole lot.

20 minutes in is obviously too soon to render a verdict on a 3 hour movie..

And why is Alfred always grousing about Bruce not getting married/continuing the family line? Why is Alfred going from concerned companion and father-like figure to over-protective Jewish mother worried about her kids never settling down?

Alfred has always had his nose in the Waynes' family business to a greater or lesser extent. With this particular issue, it sounds like you are just looking for stuff to complain about.

 

[Awesome Possum]

To be fair to Snyder, as big a hack as I think he (and the writer of BvS) are, Nolan's Alfred was so much worse then Snyder's its ridiculous. For the little screentime he had Snyder's Alfred was fairly inoffensive. Nolan's Alfred has kind of made me hate Michael Caine whenever he pops up because of how much I hated his Alfred. Alfred should want the best for Bruce, but still support him as Batman. Nolan's Alfred spent about 90% of his screentime whining at Bruce to quit being Batman. Just a very unpleseant character in a film trilogy without any particularly good characters in the first place (in my opinion, at least).

Alfred is the voice of common sense in the Nolan films. That's why he wants Bruce to stop being Batman. He's actually concerned for his safety and his happiness. It shows that he actually cares for Bruce and doesn't want him to throw his life away for an obsession.

 

[Anwar]

Alfred is the voice of common sense in the Nolan films. That's why he wants Bruce to stop being Batman. He's actually concerned for his safety and his happiness. It shows that he actually cares for Bruce and doesn't want him to throw his life away for an obsession.

It would've been better for there to be genuine conflict between them instead of Alfred just being this nag.

 

[kirk55555]

Alfred is the voice of common sense in the Nolan films. That's why he wants Bruce to stop being Batman. He's actually concerned for his safety and his happiness. It shows that he actually cares for Bruce and doesn't want him to throw his life away for an obsession.

So, every other Alfred in the movies, and the version in the comics for decades doesn't care about Bruce because they don't constantly nag him and try to get him to quit? Alfred can care and worry about Bruce, and still support his mission. In the end, batman never quits. He's Batman until he dies. Nolan didn't get it, but I don't think he "got" Batman any better then Joel Schumacher did, he just missed the point in a different way. His Alfred was part of that.

I think that's one area where Snyder "gets" Batman a bit more then Nolan. Now, obviously Batman doesn't start killing people, which is where Snyder's version went off the rails, but a Batman who just keeps getting older and probably harder/colder but still keeps up the fight as the years go by (with an Alfred that stays by his side and may want something different for Bruce, but still supports him and doesn't whine constantly) makes sense, more then "Batman quits for stupid reasons, comes back then quits again because reasons and goes off with Catwoman". Even though Snyder probably took that older, harder Batman attitude from The Dark Knight Returns (which went a bit too far with it), it still feels like Batman to me (minus Snyder's Batman being a mass killer).

 

[BJ Wagner]

So, every other Alfred in the movies, and the version in the comics for decades doesn't care about Bruce because they don't constantly nag him and try to get him to quit? Alfred can care and worry about Bruce, and still support his mission. In the end, batman never quits. He's Batman until he dies. Nolan didn't get it, but I don't think he "got" Batman any better then Joel Schumacher did, he just missed the point in a different way. His Alfred was part of that.

I think that's one area where Snyder "gets" Batman a bit more then Nolan. Now, obviously Batman doesn't start killing people, which is where Snyder's version went off the rails, but a Batman who just keeps getting older and probably harder/colder but still keeps up the fight as the years go by (with an Alfred that stays by his side and may want something different for Bruce, but still supports him and doesn't whine constantly) makes sense, more then "Batman quits for stupid reasons, comes back then quits again because reasons and goes off with Catwoman". Even though Snyder probably took that older, harder Batman attitude from The Dark Knight Returns (which went a bit too far with it), it still feels like Batman to me (minus Snyder's Batman being a mass killer).

I agree with you for the most part. But while the thugs Batman killed in the film didn't put me off this portrayal, it did seem extreme--although the poor clown Keaton toasted in Returns still doesn't sit right with me. I look at it like this is the end result of being too dark for too long. Bruce is doing things he didn't start out to do, and so long as they don't conveniently forget about these deaths and the brandings, and instead deal with them in Justice League or his solo film, I'll be happy with it. He want down a dark path, and now he's finding his way back to the light.

 

[kirk55555]

Yeah, Keaton's Batman killed a bunch, too. I wouldn't say Burton was any better then Snyder in that regard. Honestly Burton never seemed to care about Batman at all, and I think Snyder at least likes the character (even if his views on Batman, and superheroes in general, is really weird and overly grim/dark). That said, I still like Burton's Batman (especially over over BvS), and even though I'd never call Burton's Batman the "definitive" Batman movie or anything like that (I mean, it is if we just count the live action movies that are already out it is, but Burton's version of Batman was definitely off) I think it was an enjoyable movie. Then Batman Returns went off the rails and barely had Batman, but that's a whole different conversation.

 

[eyeresist]

Bruce is doing things he didn't start out to do, and so long as they don't conveniently forget about these deaths and the brandings, and instead deal with them in Justice League or his solo film, I'll be happy with it. He want down a dark path, and now he's finding his way back to the light.

Yes, if done right, it would be a great scene: Bruce monologing about how he fell into darkness, and in the end was only saved because of his friend. Something we'd all like to see, I think.

 

[JD]

While I enjoyed the Burton movies and BvS, and consider the Nolan movies one of my favorite film trilogies, right up there with the original Star Wars, Star Trek movie trilogy, and Lord of the Rings, I don't think any of them have been a 100% true representation of the character as he appears in the comics.

 

[fireproof78]

I agree with you for the most part. But while the thugs Batman killed in the film didn't put me off this portrayal, it did seem extreme--although the poor clown Keaton toasted in Returns still doesn't sit right with me. I look at it like this is the end result of being too dark for too long. Bruce is doing things he didn't start out to do, and so long as they don't conveniently forget about these deaths and the brandings, and instead deal with them in Justice League or his solo film, I'll be happy with it. He want down a dark path, and now he's finding his way back to the light.

They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son.

 

[ancient]

They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son.

barf.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

barf.

 

[ancient]

Jor El should've facepalmed at the end of that movie, while the ashes of Metropolis rain down and triumphant Superman music plays.

 

[davejames]

Since others were bringing up Nolan earlier, I just got done rewatching his Batman trilogy for the first time in a while, and for as many flaws as BvS might have in the storytelling, I'd say it still works and flows a whole lot better than the strange, clunky, disjointed mess that is TDKR.

I was really hoping that movie would have worked better for me by this point, but it still features a boring and generic villain (with an even sillier voice than Lex's), a ridiculous and convoluted story that skips around randomly and revolves around yet another tired plan to destroy a "decadent" Gotham (ok, we get it already), and people acting in all kinds of contrived and out-of-character ways. The only thing that really works in the movie is Hathaway as Catwoman, and she's barely used in the movie at all.

BvS obviously doesn't come close to the brilliance of TDK, but I certainly find it a much more cohesive and emotionally compelling movie to watch than... whatever TDKR was trying to be.

 

[eyeresist]

Collider did a panel show (link) that included the question "Will Bruce Wayne and Diana Prince have a romance in 'Justice League?'"

They do look a bit lovey dovey, but I can't imagine it being an actual romance. I think it would be more of a "we can never be together" thing.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Collider did a panel show (link) that included the question "Will Bruce Wayne and Diana Prince have a romance in 'Justice League?'"

They do look a bit lovey dovey, but I can't imagine it being an actual romance. I think it would be more of a "we can never be together" thing.

I think they may choose not to be together for whatever reason, but I don't see much sense in the idea that they 'can never be together'. Unless the DCEU is actually going to address the problems of superstrong people trying to have physical relationships with non-superstrong people, but I seriously doubt that.

 

[Ovation]

I think they may choose not to be together for whatever reason, but I don't see much sense in the idea that they 'can never be together'. Unless the DCEU is actually going to address the problems of superstrong people trying to have physical relationships with non-superstrong people, but I seriously doubt that.

Given Lois and Clark have no issues in that regard, I'd say it's a settled point.

 

[Ovation]

Of course, Batman would be risking the ire of Captain Kirk. Not a thing with which to trifle.

 

[Gaith]

BvS obviously doesn't come close to the brilliance of TDK, but I certainly find it a much more cohesive and emotionally compelling movie to watch than... whatever TDKR was trying to be.

Ya know, I'll co-sign that. BvS was rubbish and goofy, but it did have a voice and a kind of style. TDKR, on the other hand, felt like a lazy rehash of/sequel to Batman Begins grafted onto the general look and grandiose urban crime heft of The Dark Knight. The only problem: Batman Begins was already terrible, and dressing it up as a far better movie didn't do it many favors.

 

[Mage]

While I enjoyed the Burton movies and BvS, and consider the Nolan movies one of my favorite film trilogies, right up there with the original Star Wars, Star Trek movie trilogy, and Lord of the Rings, I don't think any of them have been a 100% true representation of the character as he appears in the comics.

That last sentence is spot on, and brought up in so many discussions about so many superhero movies, and mostly ignored. There are so many variations of our favorite characters in the comics, that a TRUE representation is simply not possible on the big screen. What I loved about Nolan's take, was his take on a hopefull Bruce Wayne, who refused to give up on his city and would go to extreme personal lengths to save it.

What I loved about BvS's Batman, was the much darker, more violent take on the character. The one that was willing to go to extreme measures to save the world.

It depends on which comic version you prefer more when deciding which movie version you prefer.

 

[theenglish]

That last sentence is spot on, and brought up in so many discussions about so many superhero movies, and mostly ignored. There are so many variations of our favorite characters in the comics, that a TRUE representation is simply not possible on the big screen. What I loved about Nolan's take, was his take on a hopefull Bruce Wayne, who refused to give up on his city and would go to extreme personal lengths to save it.

What I loved about BvS's Batman, was the much darker, more violent take on the character. The one that was willing to go to extreme measures to save the world.

It depends on which comic version you prefer more when deciding which movie version you prefer.

I think what JD is saying though is that none of the movie variations match with any of the comic variations. There is always something a little off, or a license that is taking that contradicts aspects of the comics character.