Spoilers Why wasn't the Franklin and NX class ship?

[Crazy Eddie]

Starfleet does handle law-enforcement

Yes, they DO law enforcement (we saw this as early as "Mudd's Women"). But they don't ABSORB law enforcement agencies for some reason. Notably the Iowa Highway Patrol seems still to be functioning in the 23rd century, not to mention the security guards who had originally detained McCoy for shooting his mouth off about Genesis.

So it could be that only CERTAIN organizations get absorbed. Most likely, organizations that primarily operate in space. That would include the space branch of the Bajoran Militia, obviously, but probably not their ground force or any ground-based police forces.

Maybe that's the answer to the MACO question too? It could be that MACO is an "offworld" type outfit, like air cavalry or paratroopers, who specialize in combat missions in alien environments and/or in starship EVAs. They'd be absorbed into Starfleet purely because their existence would have become redundant now that Starfleet security departments can perform the same basic missions just as competently.

 

[The Wormhole]

But they don't ABSORB law enforcement agencies for some reason.

The did in DS9, Sisko being stabbed by a Pah-Wraith cultist in New Orleans was reported to and investigated by Starfleet Security with the implication there was no civilian law enforcement agency.

not to mention the security guards who had originally detained McCoy for shooting his mouth off about Genesis.

No, those guys were Starfleet. They had the arrowhead on their uniforms.

 

[WebLurker]

The did in DS9, Sisko being stabbed by a Pah-Wraith cultist in New Orleans was reported to and investigated by Starfleet Security with the implication there was no civilian law enforcement agency.

Well, since it happened to a Starfleet officer, maybe Starfleet was given the job of investigating?

No, those guys were Starfleet. They had the arrowhead on their uniforms.

Same as above?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The operative who takes McCoy into custody (in the bar scene in ST III) is not a Starfleet officer. He's a civilian. He identifies himself as "Federation Security". If he had been Starfleet, he'd have said so.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, since it happened to a Starfleet officer, maybe Starfleet was given the job of investigating?

You mean like how the military does things? And US Military at that? But I thought Starfleet wasn't the military?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The did in DS9, Sisko being stabbed by a Pah-Wraith cultist in New Orleans was reported to and investigated by Starfleet Security with the implication there was no civilian law enforcement agency.

Or that an attack on an active-duty Starfleet officer by an alien non-citizen life form would be investigated by Starfleet officers and not by local law enforcement (sort of like how terrorist threats by foreign nationals usually warrant involvement by the FBI rather than local police). This is mainly a practical matter since Starfleet is better equipped to investigate those kinds of things than local police anyway. See "Wolf in the Fold" where the Enterprise only gets involved in Scotty's murder investigation because the Argelian officials had no idea how to go about it.

Likewise, a hundred years earlier Starfleet got involved in the kidnapping of Doctor Phlox, who also was an alien non-citizen and whose kidnapping had certain diplomatic implications.

Meanwhile, when little Jim Kirk steals a car and goes for a joyride, he gets pulled over by a policeman, not a Starfleet officer. And when Leonard McCoy tries to charter an illegal spaceflight to break a quarantine to Genesis, he gets picked up by Federation Security, not Starfleet.

I have to think that if an Earth citizen murders his wife and then flees across the English Channel in a boat, he'll probably get picked up by the Federation Naval Patrol and prosecuted by Scotland Yard.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You mean like how the military does things?

No, like how the FBI does things. Like how any crime committed against Federal properties or against Federal agents on duty is investigated by the FBI and not by officials in the jurisdiction in which it occurred.

Besides which, and I don't know why you're not grasping this concept: Starfleet is not a military organization, so it doesn't really matter if they DO some of the same things a military organization does. They wear uniforms, they shoot people, they take showers, they drink tea and sometimes force their subordinates to read bad poetry; the military does this too, but one does not need to be IN the military to do these things.

 

[The Wormhole]

Or that an attack on an active-duty Starfleet officer by an alien non-citizen life form would be investigated by Starfleet officers and not by local law enforcement

At the time Sisko was on a leave of absence, and therefore wasn't considered "active duty." Any first response to a call to the New Orleans Emergency Services about a human male stabbed outside Sisko's Restaurant should have been from the civilian police and EMTs, not Starfleet.

 

[WebLurker]

You mean like how the military does things? And US Military at that?

Real life militaries handle it that way? Cool, I did not know that.

But I thought Starfleet wasn't the military?

Would Starfleet need to be military to investigate Sisko's attacker as shown in the episode?

At the time Sisko was on a leave of absence, and therefore wasn't considered "active duty." Any first response to a call to the New Orleans Emergency Services about a human male stabbed outside Sisko's Restaurant should have been from the civilian police and EMTs, not Starfleet.

Under these stipulations, is there a hypothetical way that the local authorities could or would pass the case onto Starfleet?

 

[The Wormhole]

Real life militaries handle it that way? Cool, I did not know that.

The US military, anyway. It varies from country to country.

Would Starfleet need to be military to investigate Sisko's attacker as shown in the episode?

Military or an intelligence agency, yes.

 

[WebLurker]

The US military, anyway. It varies from country to country.

No kidding.

Military or an intelligence agency, yes.

As a legal layperson, may I ask why that is? (Probably a stupid question, but whatever.)

Could I also throw this hypothetical to you? Say that Picard and alt-Scotty are right and Starfleet is not a military. What kind of scenario do you think would need to happen to allow the organization to do what it does without sacrificing it's non-military status?

 

[The Wormhole]

Besides which, and I don't know why you're not grasping this concept: Starfleet is not a military organization, so it doesn't really matter if they DO some of the same things a military organization does. They wear uniforms, they shoot people, they take showers, they drink tea and sometimes force their subordinates to read bad poetry; the military does this too, but one does not need to be IN the military to do these things.

Starfleet of TOS and the movies was a military. It only "stopped" being one in TNG because for some reason Roddenberry hated the military in the 80s. "Starfleet isn't a military" is only a retcon which blatantly contradicts all that was established before it

As a legal layperson, may I ask why that is? (Probably a stupid question, but whatever.)

Those are the only organizations which have the resources necessary to do such things.

Could I also throw this hypothetical to you? Say that Picard and alt-Scotty are right and Starfleet is not a military. What kind of scenario do you think would need to happen to allow the organization to do what it does without sacrificing it's non-military status?

None.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

At the time Sisko was on a leave of absence, and therefore wasn't considered "active duty." Any first response to a call to the New Orleans Emergency Services about a human male stabbed outside Sisko's Restaurant should have been from the civilian police and EMTs, not Starfleet.

What, specifically, makes you think they DIDN'T? Sisko had to "give a report" to Starfleet security. That doesn't mean they were the first or only ones Jake called. Or even that they lead the investigation. Just that they were involved because the attacker was an alien.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Say that Picard and alt-Scotty are right and Starfleet is not a military. What kind of scenario do you think would need to happen to allow the organization to do what it does without sacrificing it's non-military status?

The government would have to pass a law giving them jurisdiction over crimes committed against Starfleet personnel and/or Starfleet property, or crimes committed by foreign citizens/nationals. How and why they do this would depend on exactly which branch of the government Starfleet actually answers to.

If the Federation has something equivalent to a "ministry of defense" or a "department of war" than Starfleet not being a military organization means they DO NOT work for this department and answer instead to some other entity; say, the Ministry of Science or the Department of Exploration. Their statutory duties could be expanded to include combat and law enforcement as appropriate in which case the relevant departments (Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Public Security, Ministry of Defense, etc) would have liason officers to coordinate with Starfleet when they perform those duties; each ministry/department/whatever would have its own "main" organization that handles these things, however, which specializes in those cases and is at the forefront when Starfleet doesn't get involved.

 

[WebLurker]

Starfleet of TOS and the movies was a military. It only "stopped" being one in TNG because for some reason Roddenberry hated the military in the 80s. "Starfleet isn't a military" is only a retcon which blatantly contradicts all that was established before it

In most cases of a retcon, it supersedes the information that came before it. (And in this case, it came in TNG season 2, which is pretty early in the franchise's life and following up on a bulk of storytelling that would lend itself to a non-military scenario.)

Those are the only organizations which have the resources necessary to do such things.

I see.

None.

No offense, but I'm taking it that you've made up your mind about it already and are more interested in convincing the rest of us than otherwise.

 

[The Wormhole]

And in this case, it came in TNG season 2, which is pretty early in the franchise's life and following up on a bulk of storytelling that would lend itself to a non-military scenario.)

"Early in the franchise's life?" The episode in question aired a few months prior to the franchise's twenty-third birthday. Regardless, the line was virtually ignored after that and the next reference to Starfleet not being military wouldn't come until fourteen years later, and in those fourteen years Starfleet was very military, even in TNG.

No offense, but I'm taking it that you've made up your mind about it already and are more interested in convincing the rest of us than otherwise.

As opposed to your stance of "Starfleet may be virtually identical to the military, but it is NOT the military because Canon says so."

 

[Timo]

But the latter stance is true. That's what they do say, and our only two options are to believe them, and to assume they are lying.

Of course they would have reasons to lie. Just like we lie today - we have a Department of Defense to handle conquest campaigns, say. War is one of the most popular subjects to tell lies about. But that's pretty much that: we can assume they bend words just like we do, and that leaves us exactly nowhere except where we started from, namely that Starfleet is the organization that does all the military stuff. It just butt-whips people who call it the Military for that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WebLurker]

"Early in the franchise's life?" The episode in question aired a few months prior to the franchise's twenty-third birthday.

Well, lets, see. Prior to TNG season 2, we had three seasons of TOS, one season's worth of TAS, four movies, and the first season of TNG. That five's season's worth of episodes and four movies, to the twenty-nine seasons worth of episodes and thirteen movies we have today. I think that counts as early in the life of the franchise (remember that for a good chunk of those first 23 years, there weren't producing new material).

Regardless, the line was virtually ignored after that and the next reference to Starfleet not being military wouldn't come until fourteen years later, and in those fourteen years Starfleet was very military, even in TNG.

Well

As opposed to your stance of "Starfleet may be virtually identical to the military, but it is NOT the military because Canon says so."

Okay, I have been firm in my (hopefully informed) opinions, however I haven't been the one asked to evaluate it from a different angle.

I don't think Starfleet is virtually identical, largely since the military-like parts of the service are the exceptions to the rule and most of the operating rules, protocols, and on-duty actions don't mesh. (Cases in point, in a military operation, would Prime Directive violations be tolerated, officers allowed to refuse advancements/repostings, non-citizens allowed to enlist, civilians allowed to live on a vessel in active duty without a specific job, and officers resign and un-resign at the drop of a hat?)

The references we have to it not being a military really don't leave any wiggle room to reinterpret the meaning. On top of that, the assumption that Starfleet is a military is heavily based on the idea that the legal set-up is identical to today's, which is a very shaky assumption, given the passage of time, and changes in governments from the present day to the Star Trek timeframe (not to mention that parts of Star Trek's past are different from our own).

 

[The Wormhole]

(Cases in point, in a military operation, would Prime Directive violations be tolerated,

Maybe not, but military fiction is replete with examples of characters violating the regulations for noble reasons, despite the fact this would get the book thrown at them in the military. This alone does not prove Starfleet isn't a military.

officers allowed to refuse advancements/repostings

Granted, Starfleet's apparent lack of an up or out policy is at odds with most militaries. Probably a by-product of it being so huge Starfleet needs to hold onto slackers just to meet staffing requirements, especially with high mortality rates among the redshirts.

non-citizens allowed to enlist

Happens all the time in the US military.

civilians allowed to live on a vessel in active duty without a specific job

Aside from the children on the Enterprise D, who lived on the ships without specific jobs? Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of who lived on a starship without a job being mentioned was Jennifer Sisko, but for all we know she did and it just was never mentioned. If you can provide examples, I'll discuss this one further.

officers resign and un-resign at the drop of a hat?

Again, dramatic license. Truth is, no job, military or otherwise would tolerate that, but we see it in TV and movies all the time.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Happens all the time in the US military.

Not with non-residents who don't even LIVE in the United States. They draw the line at having (at the very least) some documentation on your immigration status. You can't just walk off a boat in Miami and then slip an application to the Air Force Academy (which Nog and Jaylah basically do) no matter who's vouching for you.

Aside from the children on the Enterprise D, who lived on the ships without specific jobs?

Now that's just shifting the goalposts. Enterprise also has school teachers, bar tenders, waiters, barbers, botanists and musicians, all of whom are civilians, and NOT all of whom have any ties to family members aboard the ship. Guinan in particular isn't a relative of everyone on the Enterprise, and apart from her friendship with Picard, has no reason whatsoever to be on the ship except to run the bar and wait tables. For that matter, ask yourself what exactly Keiko O'Brien was doing on the Enterprise BEFORE she married Miles.

Speaking of marriage, I know of no military organization on Earth that actually permits romantic entanglements between a junior and a senior officer, and yet Star Trek set the precedent for that as early as "Balance of Terror" where we see an Ensign about to get married to her superior officer IN THE SAME DEPARTMENT. Officers are asked to handle that entirely among themselves and use their best judgement, which is only the most glaring example of the fact that "military discipline" is applied selectively and only to the extent the local commanding officer feels like enforcing it (witness, also, the difference in style between Captain Picard and Jellico; the former failed to notice she had been out of uniform for the last three years, the latter called her on it immediately).

Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of who lived on a starship without a job being mentioned was Jennifer Sisko

She was a physicist, AFAIK.

Also, Emissary makes it clear that Jake was conceived and born aboard a starship (probably Saratoga). This, again, would be unthinkable for a military vessel in active duty, especially for a ship that could be sent into combat and destroyed at any moment (which it was).

Truth is, no job, military or otherwise would tolerate that

The big scientific laboratories do, mainly because scientists and researchers sometimes move between projects and have to resign one post or another to avoid conflicts of interest. Also because there are only so many people qualified to even hold those positions in the first place; if you're good enough to work for CERN, you're good enough to work for CERN.

But actually that's another really good example of Starfleet's organizational structure bearing a closer resemblance to "Paramilitary-Corporate" than straight up military. I've actually worked for security contractors who operated EXACTLY this way: a few officers resigned for a few months over personal issues or (usually due to pregnancy or family illnesses) and then reapplied for and walked back onto the job without having to go through the full interview process, their employee records, background checks and qualifications still on file. For that matter, I'm also reminded that Securitas, Pinkerton and (until they got hammered for being the bunch of half-cocked cowboy mercenaries that they were) Blackwater all used military ranks and a military-style chain of command for their employees. My brother in law still does; he carries a side arm and is legally empowered to shoot trespassers at his job site, and has a rank of Sergeant (chevrons and everything).

There's "military style" and then there's The Military. It's best not to get those two things confused.