Why The Huge Gap Between TMP & WOK?

[DeepSpaceYorks]

I probably am overstating the case somewhat due to the frustration that has grown over the years. TOS never fulfilled its promise in my mind, even when I was a small boy watching it on the BBC I had a niggle about it despite my love for it. I adore the whole idea, the concept but I find it very hard to actually find an episode to watch these days. These feelings have only grown as I've seen more and more archive telly in the intervening decades. If I watch TOS these days it's for the aesthetic and design only. It's why the post 5YM and movie era has become an obsession lately, the opportunity for character development has really fired my imagination.

 

[Warped9]

The point is that when Kirk replaced him, Decker hadn't proved himself to be a captain on the field yet. He never got the chance, actually.

That's an illogical assumption right up there with assuming the Enterprise was Kirk's first command. No sane organization (excluding the lunacy of JJtrek) is going to put a total command neophyte in command of one of their top ships. He has to have proven ability and experience.

When you look at the other starship Captains seen in TOS you see they were all distinctly older than Kirk. It infers the general practice was to give starship command to older and more seasoned officers. Kirk clearly must have displayed exceptional abilities and judgment to have earned him a starship command at a relatively younger age. Also, as has been inferred in WNMHGB, Kirk had a "first" previous command before the Enterprise which supports the assertion in The Making Of Star Trek that his previous command was a destroyer equivalent class starship.

 

[locutus101]

That's an illogical assumption right up there with assuming the Enterprise was Kirk's first command. No sane organization (excluding the lunacy of JJtrek) is going to put a total command neophyte in command of one of their top ships. He has to have proven ability and experience.

When you look at the other starship Captains seen in TOS you see they were all distinctly older than Kirk. It infers the general practice was to give starship command to older and more seasoned officers. Kirk clearly must have displayed exceptional abilities and judgment to have earned him a starship command at a relatively younger age. Also, as has been inferred in WNMHGB, Kirk had a "first" previous command before the Enterprise which supports the assertion in The Making Of Star Trek that his previous command was a destroyer equivalent class starship.

Yes, Kirk is incredibly young for a starship captain, Picard by comparison could have been the older brother of his father when he took command of Enterprise.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, Kirk is incredibly young for a starship captain, Picard by comparison could have been the older brother of his father when he took command of Enterprise.

Although he took command of the Stargazer when quite young, at the age of 28. At least, that's how it's been retroactively interpreted. I think the original idea was that he served aboard the Stargazer for 22 years and eventually became its captain, but the Chronology and the novels have assumed that he became its captain almost immediately. Per "Tapestry," he took over command when the captain and first officer were killed and then got to keep command thereafter (i.e. almost exactly how Kelvin Timeline Kirk got the Enterprise in the later movie).

Roddenberry cribbed a lot of TNG's basic ideas from Phase II -- Riker was Decker, Troi was Ilia, Data was Xon, and Picard was meant to be the older, more experienced Kirk who took on Decker as his protege (with Decker taking over as the young action/romantic lead). So Picard was conceived as a character who had already become renowned for his past successes and was now a mentor to the next generation (to coin a phrase). The original writers' bible stressed that Picard was considered a legend for his unparallelled record of discoveries and first contacts aboard the Stargazer. That's why he was deemed worthy to command "the flagship of the Federation" -- because he was already the best of the best.

But TNG so rarely talked about Picard's pre-Enterprise career that a lot of fans forget it existed. Like, one of the criticisms you often hear of Nemesis is "Why would the Romulans have cloned Picard if he wasn't famous yet?" But Shinzon was only about 25; according to the novelization, he was born in 2354. At that point, Picard would've been the Stargazer's captain for 21 years, more than enough time to establish himself as an important figure in Starfleet. But even Memory Alpha dismisses the importance of his Stargazer career in discussing Shinzon's origins. People just assume that if we didn't see it, it didn't matter. They never think about the fact that his Stargazer career was an even larger part of his life than his Enterprise career. And really, given that fact, TNG itself should've addressed it more often.

 

[locutus101]

Although he took command of the Stargazer when quite young, at the age of 28. At least, that's how it's been retroactively interpreted. I think the original idea was that he served aboard the Stargazer for 22 years and eventually became its captain, but the Chronology and the novels have assumed that he became its captain almost immediately. Per "Tapestry," he took over command when the captain and first officer were killed and then got to keep command thereafter (i.e. almost exactly how Kelvin Timeline Kirk got the Enterprise in the later movie).

Roddenberry cribbed a lot of TNG's basic ideas from Phase II -- Riker was Decker, Troi was Ilia, Data was Xon, and Picard was meant to be the older, more experienced Kirk who took on Decker as his protege (with Decker taking over as the young action/romantic lead). So Picard was conceived as a character who had already become renowned for his past successes and was now a mentor to the next generation (to coin a phrase). The original writers' bible stressed that Picard was considered a legend for his unparallelled record of discoveries and first contacts aboard the Stargazer. That's why he was deemed worthy to command "the flagship of the Federation" -- because he was already the best of the best.

But TNG so rarely talked about Picard's pre-Enterprise career that a lot of fans forget it existed. Like, one of the criticisms you often hear of Nemesis is "Why would the Romulans have cloned Picard if he wasn't famous yet?" But Shinzon was only about 25; according to the novelization, he was born in 2354. At that point, Picard would've been the Stargazer's captain for 21 years, more than enough time to establish himself as an important figure in Starfleet. But even Memory Alpha dismisses the importance of his Stargazer career in discussing Shinzon's origins. People just assume that if we didn't see it, it didn't matter. They never think about the fact that his Stargazer career was an even larger part of his life than his Enterprise career. And really, given that fact, TNG itself should've addressed it more often.

If they wanted to use Shinzon as a substitute for Picard, they'd have had to age him fast. I guess they never got around to doing that.

 

[Christopher]

If they wanted to use Shinzon as a substitute for Picard, they'd have had to age him fast. I guess they never got around to doing that.

Well, yes, that was Shinzon's whole motivation as explicitly stated in the movie. He was designed to undergo a controlled process of accelerated aging once he reached maturity, but since the cloning project was abandoned, the onset of that process would kill him unless he took Picard's DNA to stabilize himself. That's why he wanted to capture Picard in the first place. And his hatred of Picard came from the knowledge that he (Shinzon) was an imperfect copy doomed to die, so he resented his original.

 

[DeepSpaceYorks]

Part of me wishes Phase II had got off the ground I think it could have provided some interesting stories. I think it's prime material for a short series of 'What If' novels. Imagine it taking place on the TMP Enterprise refit and really lay on the character development. I may have to write some fanfic.

 

[locutus101]

Well, yes, that was Shinzon's whole motivation as explicitly stated in the movie. He was designed to undergo a controlled process of accelerated aging once he reached maturity, but since the cloning project was abandoned, the onset of that process would kill him unless he took Picard's DNA to stabilize himself. That's why he wanted to capture Picard in the first place. And his hatred of Picard came from the knowledge that he (Shinzon) was an imperfect copy doomed to die, so he resented his original.

His hatred of humankind was rather bizarre. The only people he had an actual reason to hate were the ones who created him the way he was.

 

[wayoung]

His hatred of humankind was rather bizarre. The only people he had an actual reason to hate were the ones who created him the way he was.

He was mad to the max. Totally kray kray. It's the bane of his existence.

 

[Christopher]

His hatred of humankind was rather bizarre. The only people he had an actual reason to hate were the ones who created him the way he was.

He hated Picard, because Picard was the original who overshadowed him. He was written very much like a son who resented his more successful father. He couldn't accept that he was responsible for his own choices and actions, so he blamed his circumstances in life on everything but himself. So he felt that, in order to make his own name for himself, he had to destroy Picard and all his accomplishments. Picard valued Earth and the Federation and had helped to protect them, so Shinzon would undo Picard's work by destroying them.

 

[locutus101]

He hated Picard, because Picard was the original who overshadowed him. He was written very much like a son who resented his more successful father. He couldn't accept that he was responsible for his own choices and actions, so he blamed his circumstances in life on everything but himself. So he felt that, in order to make his own name for himself, he had to destroy Picard and all his accomplishments. Picard valued Earth and the Federation and had helped to protect them, so Shinzon would undo Picard's work by destroying them.

IOW he was cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

 

[Tallguy]

That's why he was deemed worthy to command "the flagship of the Federation"

That term has always bugged me. As I get older it's not getting any better.

 

[locutus101]

That term has always bugged me. As I get older it's not getting any better.

You mean "Flagship of the Federation"?

 

[Tallguy]

You mean "Flagship of the Federation"?

Aye.

 

[locutus101]

Aye.

Why is that?

 

[Christopher]

Why is that?

Probably because that's not even remotely what "flagship" means in military usage. A flagship is a ship under an admiral's command (e.g. the Enterprise in The Wrath of Khan, probably) or the command ship of a task force (like the Rotarran for Martok or the Defiant when it led a battle fleet in the Dominion War). TNG seemed to be using it more in the civilian, vernacular sense of the best or most prestigious member of a group of things.

Although I think I figured out recently that, to an extent, it was probably using it in the sense that the Enterprise was on the vanguard of the Federation's diplomatic and first-contact efforts, the ship that often represented the Federation to other civilizations. So in that sense, it was bearing the UFP's flag to the galaxy beyond. Still, it's an unconventional usage.

 

[locutus101]

Probably because that's not even remotely what "flagship" means in military usage. A flagship is a ship under an admiral's command (e.g. the Enterprise in The Wrath of Khan, probably) or the command ship of a task force (like the Rotarran for Martok or the Defiant when it led a battle fleet in the Dominion War). TNG seemed to be using it more in the civilian, vernacular sense of the best or most prestigious member of a group of things.

Although I think I figured out recently that, to an extent, it was probably using it in the sense that the Enterprise was on the vanguard of the Federation's diplomatic and first-contact efforts, the ship that often represented the Federation to other civilizations. So in that sense, it was bearing the UFP's flag to the galaxy beyond. Still, it's an unconventional usage.

You're very knowledgeable.

 

[Destructor]

Although I think I figured out recently that, to an extent, it was probably using it in the sense that the Enterprise was on the vanguard of the Federation's diplomatic and first-contact efforts, the ship that often represented the Federation to other civilizations. So in that sense, it was bearing the UFP's flag to the galaxy beyond.

Lacking further knowledge, that was my assumption when I first watched TNG, age 12, and they mentioned it was the flagship. I just thought it meant the ship that 'carries the flag' to new worlds. It's not unreasonable to assume that, in the intervening years between now and then, the meaning of the word might morph to fit that description.

 

[WebLurker]

Probably because that's not even remotely what "flagship" means in military usage. A flagship is a ship under an admiral's command (e.g. the Enterprise in The Wrath of Khan, probably) or the command ship of a task force (like the Rotarran for Martok or the Defiant when it led a battle fleet in the Dominion War). TNG seemed to be using it more in the civilian, vernacular sense of the best or most prestigious member of a group of things.

Although I think I figured out recently that, to an extent, it was probably using it in the sense that the Enterprise was on the vanguard of the Federation's diplomatic and first-contact efforts, the ship that often represented the Federation to other civilizations. So in that sense, it was bearing the UFP's flag to the galaxy beyond. Still, it's an unconventional usage.

I always took it to mean that it referred to the Enterprise being the top ship in the fleet. Case in point:

Borg Collective: "Captain Jean Luc Picard, you lead the strongest ship of the Federation fleet. You speak for your people." ("The Best of Both Worlds, Part I" [TNG]).

So, I never had a problem with the term (esp. given that language can and will change between now and the 24th century).

 

[FormerLurker]

You're very knowledgeable.

He has to be. He's an author.

Even those authors that make their stories up whole cloth have to do research so the stories they tell are believable to the widest variety of audience. Just because it's pure fantasy doesn't mean that descriptions of sword fights can say any old thing. They have to make sense to those readers that know how to sword fight, or it takes them out of the story. And that is always bad.