Babylon 5

[Asbo Zaprudder]

One thing that bothered me about that machine was why couldn't they use a cow and have steaks afterwards? Same for Deathwalker's serum, too, what was unique that needed, presumably, the same species for this life transfer to work?

Yeah I wonder that as well...

But with Deathwalker's serum the thing is everyone would want it so much, and as she said they'd climb over each other to get it. It would cause a hell of a lot of damage.

The needs of the plot appeared to require that the same species be used. Also a lot of Hindus, Buddhists and vegetarians would be upset if cows or other animals had to die. Plants are multicellular eukaryotic creatures like us except they have cellulose in their cell walls and chloroplasts as well as mitochondria. They are apparently too nutritious and/or too woody to be cute and we have to eat something. Perhaps Franklin wasn't imaginative enough to try hooking up the machine to a cow or a bowl of petunias.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The needs of the plot appeared to require that the same species be used. Also a lot of Hindus, Buddhists and vegetarians would be upset if cows or other animals had to die. Plants are multicellular eukaryotic creatures like use except they have cellulose in their cell walls and chloroplasts as well as mitochondria . They are apparently too nutritious and/or too woody to be cute and we have to eat something. Perhaps Franklin wasn't imaginative enough to try hooking up the machine to a cow or a bowl of petunias.

Franklin fires up the machine on the bowl of petunias then we cut to Kosh hearing the scream of 'Oh no, not again!'

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

They could have hooked it up to Kosh

BTW The Wheel Of Fire was an episode where Lyta whacked a camera with her mind but it wasn't the one I was thinking of. I remember she did it to 3 or 4 cameras in the same room. She didn't destroy them, she just kept turning her head to face them when they kept switching the cameras as if she could detect them.

 

[Gov Kodos]

They could have hooked it up to Kosh

BTW The Wheel Of Fire was an episode where Lyta whacked a camera with her mind but it wasn't the one I was thinking of. I remember she did it to 3 or 4 cameras in the same room. She didn't destroy them, she just kept turning her head to face them when they kept switching the cameras as if she could detect them.

Immortals can die, too. Lorien's repairing Sheridan is more to the point when he speaks of giving of his life willingly. He also looked a bit drained from doing it much like folks after using the machine. I guess their are limits to how much anyone can give out in one go. The show to implies a moral difference between the methods of the machine and Deathwalker's ways which take the life energy by force and Lorien who gives it willingly.

 

[Reverend]

My assumption with the "false cure" was always that it was something along the lines of what we saw Edgars try to do to the telepaths. Make them dependent on a substance and thus controlled by whomever produces it. That is to say the cure wouldn't be a permanent one-shot fix like a vaccine, but something you'd keep having to take to keep the nano-virus dormant or it'll re-activate and probably kill you quicker than ever.

That seems doable for a group that know enough about reverse engineering Shadow tech to make a bunch of retrofitted destroyers, that one half-crazed hybrid, a bunch of hybrid starfuries and whatever was going on with those drone workers. It would also tie-in to the short term immunisation nanites Chambers retrofitted from the techno-mage virus.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

A "remedy that is worse than the disease" scenario rather than a "balloon debate" one? That does seem a better fit as the Pandora's box of Shadow tech has been opened.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

And the thing is Deathwalker's anti agapic serum must have been the real deal, or something very close if the Vorlons were very keen to bump her off so early in the series.

I think they pretty much set that in motion with the alien ship nuking her as she left.

 

[Reverend]

Understanding Vorlon motivation is tricky bordering on futile at the best of times. Though I suspect there were two basic factors in their decision.
First off, just as Kosh said, the younger races aren't ready for immortality and it's easy to see why.
Secondly and more selfishly; it'd completely screw-up the million year long "order vs. chaos" squabble they've been having with the Shadows.

 

[Marsden]

I think it's also a part of the proxy war between the Vorlon and Shadows.

Jah' Dur might have been a brilliant scientist, or she just may have been ruthless enough to keep experimenting on live victims with Shadow tech, even if she wasn't aware it was such, until she hit the right formula.

Just like the Ikarran war machine, there was left over Shadow tech, almost everywhere. They didn't care who it hurt, it would kill them or allow them to kill their weaker neighbors, so win win for them.

 

[JD]

This thread has inspired me to rewatch/ first time read the Babylon 5 saga. I watched the part of The Gathering this morning, and I'll finish it up tomorrow.

 

[Reverend]

I think it's also a part of the proxy war between the Vorlon and Shadows.

Jah' Dur might have been a brilliant scientist, or she just may have been ruthless enough to keep experimenting on live victims with Shadow tech, even if she wasn't aware it was such, until she hit the right formula.

Just like the Ikarran war machine, there was left over Shadow tech, almost everywhere. They didn't care who it hurt, it would kill them or allow them to kill their weaker neighbors, so win win for them.

I don't think there's any indication that the Dilgar or even Jah' Dur in particular had anything to do with the Shadows, knowingly or otherwise.

Indeed, at that point in time the Shadows weren't even active, but still dormant on Zha'dum and intended to remain as such for at least another century (the Icarus mission woke them prematurely.) It wouldn't even make sense from a motivation standpoint either since the Shadows wouldn't want the younger races achieving immortality any more than the Vorlons did,

 

[JWPlatt]

Understanding Vorlon motivation is tricky bordering on futile at the best of times.

Understanding Vorlons and their motivations is like quantum mechanics. It's not possible to understand them all at once. When you do try to observe them, it changes the results from their true and indeterminable nature.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

IIRC, in the trilogy by Jeanne Cavelos, the Technomages' power relied on implanted Shadow tech whose manufacture was only made possible by the deaths of sentient beings. Sacrificing other life forms as the means to achieve their ends seems to have been kind of a constant with the Shadows. The Vorlons weren't really any better -- manipulating other species' genomes to create telepaths to fight against the Shadows, for example.

 

[DonIago]

Yep. Technomage tech is made of people!!!

In their defense, the vast majority of the technomages had no idea that was the case.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I rather like the Technomages. I mean using science to simulate the role of magic. I mean that's very cool. I'd like to think wizards and other magical beings followed this notion and that what they do as magic is actually some lost forgotten part of science..

As for the Ikaran artifacts I don't think they had anything to do with the Shadows or Vorlons, that they just evolved out of that planets history. Eventually most species create organic technology I'd imagine.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I don't think there's any indication that the Dilgar or even Jah' Dur in particular had anything to do with the Shadows, knowingly or otherwise.

Indeed, at that point in time the Shadows weren't even active, but still dormant on Zha'dum and intended to remain as such for at least another century (the Icarus mission woke them prematurely.) It wouldn't even make sense from a motivation standpoint either since the Shadows wouldn't want the younger races achieving immortality any more than the Vorlons did,

Why another century? The Prophecies of Valen put it in B5's time, a thousand years after the previous Shadow War. Valen knew what he was talking about. Deathwalker and the Ikarans may have found some Shadow tech and modified it or come across something else from a different species, or just hit on the ideas themselves. I wouldn't be surprised that the Vorlons caught wind of her work and blew up their sun to put an end to Deathwalker's work before she could finish it.

 

[Reverend]

Why another century? The Prophecies of Valen put it in B5's time, a thousand years after the previous Shadow War. Valen knew what he was talking about. Deathwalker and the Ikarans may have found some Shadow tech and modified it or come across something else from a different species, or just hit on the ideas themselves. I wouldn't be surprised that the Vorlons caught wind of her work and blew up their sun to put an end to Deathwalker's work before she could finish it.

The Shadows probably neither knew nor cared about the prophecies of Valen and certainly didn't set their alarm clocks by him. Remember that those prophecies came from inside information. Valen knew what Sinclair knew, he did not cause it to happen.
It's established in the books that the Shadows were awoken early by the Icarus crew poking around, indeed Not-Anna says as much to Sheridan on the show. The books also say the Vorlons weren't expecting them to reemerge for another hundred years or so, which screwed up their plans since the human telepaths weren't ready yet. They'd intended to push them past P12 and really become the weapons they were meant to be. Apparently the human genome proved especially receptive to the tlepath gene compared to other races. As it turns out, they only managed to do it to Lyta.

The Ikarans wiped themselves out about a thousand years ago, which puts the event smack in the middle of the previous Shadow War. So they probably didn't *find* the Shadow tech but had it given to them by one of that era's Mr. Mordens.

The Dilgar War however was only a few decades ago and there is absolutely no reason to believe Deathwalker came by her serum any other way than the hard way. Though years of research and by the death and misery of millions of sentient beings. Plus, as already stated, they Shadows wouldn't want immortal young races any more than the Vorlons. There's also no reason to thing the life drainer has anything to do with them either.

Shadow technology doesn't all work by draining lifeforce. Indeed the techno-mage chrysalis seems unique in that. It mostly just uses a living being as the CPU. Not just the ships, but at the small scale too. Before all hell broke loose, the Icarus crew found inert little devices that had the skeletons of a little creature inside them. It's CPU had died while it's masters slept. The same thing happened with the Shadow Vessels. It's why Justin specifically said they needed fresh bodies for them and is further indication they were prematurely awoken since otherwise their servants would probably have already acquired a supply ready for them.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The Shadows probably neither knew nor cared about the prophecies of Valen and certainly didn't set their alarm clocks by him. Remember that those prophecies came from inside information. Valen knew what Sinclair knew, he did not cause it to happen.
It's established in the books that the Shadows were awoken early by the Icarus crew poking around, indeed Not-Anna says as much to Sheridan on the show. The books also say the Vorlons weren't expecting them to reemerge for another hundred years or so, which screwed up their plans since the human telepaths weren't ready yet. They'd intended to push them past P12 and really become the weapons they were meant to be. Apparently the human genome proved especially receptive to the tlepath gene compared to other races. As it turns out, they only managed to do it to Lyta.

Is this from the PsiCorp trilogy? I haven't read the novels in a while.

The Ikarans wiped themselves out about a thousand years ago, which puts the event smack in the middle of the previous Shadow War. So they probably didn't *find* the Shadow tech but had it given to them by one of that era's Mr. Mordens.

I wouldn't be surprised at that.

The Dilgar War however was only a few decades ago and there is absolutely no reason to believe Deathwalker came by her serum any other way than the hard way. Though years of research and by the death and misery of millions of sentient beings. Plus, as already stated, they Shadows wouldn't want immortal young races any more than the Vorlons. There's also no reason to thing the life drainer has anything to do with them either.

I always thought the Vorlons or Shadows might have made an end of the Dilgar. No reason someone couldn't come up with something like it. The episode said Earth scientists had been working on such things, no doubt other races, too. Deathwalker was just willing to go that extra step that gets success.

Shadow technology doesn't all work by draining lifeforce. Indeed the techno-mage chrysalis seems unique in that. It mostly just uses a living being as the CPU. Not just the ships, but at the small scale too. Before all hell broke loose, the Icarus crew found inert little devices that had the skeletons of a little creature inside them. It's CPU had died while it's masters slept. The same thing happened with the Shadow Vessels. It's why Justin specifically said they needed fresh bodies for them and is further indication they were prematurely awoken since otherwise their servants would probably have already acquired a supply ready for them.

I guess this is from The Shadow Within?

 

[Reverend]

Is this from the PsiCorp trilogy? I haven't read the novels in a while.

I think so, yes. It's been a while for me too so some of it could have come from one of the other books or short stories.

I always thought the Vorlons or Shadows might have made an end of the Dilgar. No reason someone couldn't come up with something like it. The episode said Earth scientists had been working on such things, no doubt other races, too. Deathwalker was just willing to go that extra step that gets success.

Anything is possible but nowhere in canon is there any indication of a connection that I'm aware of and in a universe that loves it's connected mysteries, that probably means there's no direct connection.

We know next to nothing of the Dilgar except that they suddenly went on a rampage, grabbing up as much territory and enslaving as many races as they could (while taking care to avoid Minbari & Centauri space) before eventually being beaten back to their home system by an alliance lead by Earth. At which point their star went supernova and wiped them all out.

From that it's probably safe to infer that they knew full well their star was in it's death throws (such things take centuries to build up) and their only chance of survival was to carve an empire out of non-aligned space. It's a big galaxy and races are perfectly capable of waging war on each other without prompting from the Shadows and if the Vorlons wanted to wipe out a species and/or obliterate a plant, we've seen first hand they have more direct means at their disposal at possibly inducing a supernova.

I guess this is from The Shadow Within?

Mostly. Some elements are also addressed in the techno-mage novels as it has some chapters from the POV of both Kosh and "Anna" as a Shadow Vessel.

 

[Marsden]

I must disagree with you again, Reverend.

The technomage trilogy clearly establishes that the Shadow's servants were never really dormant. They were building up huge cities of workers in the general area of Zahadum for years before the Icarus was launched.

Spoiler

Galen and Isabelle went the Zefram system to investigate the activity at the behest of the Circle to see if it was true, even though the Circle damn well knew it was. It caused Burel's death by a Drahk and Isabelle' s death by Shadow corrupted Elizar.

If they were so dormant, then why did that Shadow vessel dig out the other on Mars, the only reason the Icarus had a heading?


I'm afraid you've been falling for the Vorlon's half truths and manipulations. The Shadows were very much active before the Icarus landed. It may have accelerated the program, but they were on the move. Of course blaming the Humans for it all is nice and convenient.

JMS was my source for the Ikarran tech being based on Shadow tech. And the Shadows were not protective of their weapons, they left them everywhere. I don't think Deathwalker had any assistance from them,
but:

Spoiler

just like Lou Welsh was using a Drahk invisiblity cloak without their approval,

Deathwalker likely had some of their tech to work with. Delenn said the Windswords had these horrible new weapons. Who makes those?