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Do you think LGBT characters will feature more prominently?

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I dont recall the 90s being that bad
Whilst other shows of the era did have gay characters
(not a fat lot i'll grant you)
star trek was seen to be kind of lagging behind
not only because it didn't mention anything other than the possibility of heterosexuality
but because people expected better of this show due its incredibly bold diversity record .
there was also the whole whoopi goldberg argument .she fought to have line changed from "in theory"
"when it works between a man and a woman" became "when its work between two people".
There was Beverley's romance with the trill ambassador and the offensive ending.
and fast forwarding to enterprise in the 21st century
the will and grace /queer as folk era
they still chickened out.
 
Oh, that was you?

Jeff said

Where do you draw the line? Olivier playing Othello? Damon playing Asian?

Laurence "Olivier" is a white guy who starred in a big budget movie as a black dude, like %99 of the actors who ever played Othello before him.

then you said
I draw "the line" in the obvious place: if the actor can convincingly portray it. That's also where the line is for the producers who do the hiring, so it works out perfectly.

So yup. You said black face is fine. Although it's entirely possible that you don't know about a 50 year old movie or a 412 year old play, and didn't know what you were saying. It happens.
 
Huh?
TNG had Michael Dorn, LeVar Burton, and Whoopi Goldberg as main cast members who were not white, three major cast members who were female at any given time, featured interracial couples (IE Obrien and Keiko), had a host of guest stars who were of all kinds of ethnicity, and had explored topics that were controversial at the time, including homosexuality. This show debuted almost 30 years ago

DS9 had Avery Brooks, Michael Dorn, Cirroc Lofton, Alex Siddig, and depicted the first African American captain, and the first female first officer as primary characters (not counting the cage), and had an even more diverse main and guest cast members, included controversial topics including sexuality, and even tackled war and the effects it has on society, as well as how governments manipulate people.....something done BEFORE 9/11, but was especially poignant and relevant in the 2000s in a post 9/11 world. This show debuted 23 years ago.

Voyager had the first female captain and chief engineer, first African american as a Vulcan, two Latino cast members (one who portrayed a Native American, though clumsily, but well intentioned), an Asian cast member, and at any given time 3 female lead cast members. It may be fair to say Voyager played it safe compared the shows before it and was not all that ground breaking, but I think it still did tackle some controversial subjects, including sexuality, and its contribution was to promote positive role models through a diverse cast, main and guest. This show debuted 22 years ago.

What these shows had in common was that they pushed the boundaries the best they could. Criticizing them because they didn't have a main LGBT cast member is not a fair thing to do, because not many other shows were doing what where these Star Trek shows were doing, and the social climate in the US, while maybe more accepting than the 1960s, was different than today. I am sure if they were allowed by the producers, executives, and sponsors, Star Trek writers would have happily written in LGBT cast members.

It really irritates me when people bash these shows and hold them to standards of today, when in reality they were groundbreaking for the time in which they were originally shot. Don't blame the shows, blame the era in which the were created.

(EDIT: another thought here: this attitude to criticize Star Trek of the 1980s and 1990s for a lack of main LGBT characters reminds me of the RETROACTIVE criticism Bill Clinton received a few years ago when Obama lifted the ban on gays in the military. People criticized Clinton for not having the "courage" to do it, and instead went with Don't ask, Don't tell. Such revisionists didn't understand how truly progressive Clinton was for doing that, and poltiically speaking, it just was not possible to completely lift the gay ban back then. I know. I was in the military back then, and know how the military was back then! Not to mention, what Obama did would not have been possible had Clinton not taken that step in the first place. Rather than blame Clinton, such critics should have been criticizing the presidents before Clinton (IE Carter, Reagan, Bush), or after (Bush II), for not doing a single thing to help LGB people serve in the military.

::Sigh:: I am sure there will be people 20 years from now who will not praise Obama for allowing gays and lesbians to serve in the military, but will criticize him for not opening it up to trans people instead.
I'm saying it was safe to do that by the time of the spinoffs because of shows like TOS. But I don't think having a female captain was brave by the time of Voyager. A lot of shows were having female leads for decades. It's brave for Trek because I don't think the fanbase is really that progressive. Just look at the reaction she got.
 
Uhh, you not one of the people who thinks the US government blew up the world trade center are you?
Of course the US didn't do 911 to themselves, but Bush's White House pretended that Afghanistan and Iraq were responsible for that act of terrorism to justify their subsequent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

That's a huge lie.

Almost as huge as Colin Powell directing a powerpoint before the UN assembly explaining that the US had proof that Saddam had weapons of Mass destruction. Word is that he didn't know that he was lying, and got really pissed when it all went to shit.
 
Oh, that was you?

Jeff said



Laurence "Olivier" is a white guy who starred in a big budget movie as a black dude, like %99 of the actors who ever played Othello before him.

then you said


So yup. You said black face is fine. Although it's entirely possible that you don't know about a 50 year old movie or a 412 year old play, and didn't know what you were saying. It happens.

So you interpreted my clear disagreement as an endorsement. Ok, fantastic. I'll add this to my flow chart.
 
At the time, in the 1960s, Laurence did a fine inoffensive job as Othello.

That was your criteria.

The producers thought he would do a good job, and they most likely made exactly as much money as they thought they would.

It seemed like you were endorsing blackface.

What we didn't consider is that you were applying today's standards to an old movie made in the deep past by people who were nearly almost born in the 19th century.

Did you keep reading the thread yet?

There was a crazy person actually being racist, no one actually remembered what you said until now.

Your mistake is that you tried to be clever, instead of just saying yes or no, which is a crime I myself repeat hourly.
 
Where's the "clear disagreement"?
As I said, and will now repeat:

"I draw "the line" in the obvious place: if the actor can convincingly portray it. That's also where the line is for the producers who do the hiring, so it works out perfectly."

How this is interpreted as anything other than an endorsement of Star Trek's hiring practices, I'm not sure. As far as I'm aware, Trek has not used blackface, that's ABSURD to assume. I wouldn't even have thought of something so ludicrous.

I don't know, I feel like there is some sort of massive man made out of straw that follows me around this place sometimes, and he must be way more sociable than me, because people keep talking to him.
 
At the time, in the 1960s, Laurence did a fine inoffensive job as Othello.

That was your criteria.

Not really, since I know nothing about that, I'm talking about casting in Star Trek Discovery.

Your mistake is that you tried to be clever, instead of just saying yes or no, which is a crime I myself repeat hourly.

I was answering a question about where I 'draw the line' - not a Y/N question- my answer was, my line is drawn the same place as the producers (of STD, not random 1960s movie I know nothing about) - If someone can pass for who they are playing then it's fine. End of story.
 
Not really, since I know nothing about that, I'm talking about casting in Star Trek Discovery.



I was answering a question about where I 'draw the line' - not a Y/N question- my answer was, my line is drawn the same place as the producers (of STD, not random 1960s movie I know nothing about) - If someone can pass for who they are playing then it's fine. End of story.
I asked a very specific question concerning 2 examples of whites playing nonwhites, including one in black face, and you responded by indicating you were cool w it (and, thus, at least implying you know who Laurence Olivier was and what Othello is and the movie I was referencing). Obviously, you misspoke by not actually answering the question you were responding to. People make honest mistakes and that's cool. It happens. You have since clarified that you are not ok w black face. Got it. Thank you. Life goes on.
 
I asked a very specific question concerning 2 examples of whites playing nonwhites, including one in black face, and you responded by indicating you were cool w it (and, thus, at least implying you know who Laurence Olivier was and what Othello is and the movie I was referencing). Obviously, you misspoke by not actually answering the question you were responding to. People make honest mistakes and that's cool. It happens. You have since clarified that you are not ok w black face. Got it. Thank you. Life goes on.

Well, Othello is kind of a special case.
 
Uhh, you not one of the people who thinks the US government blew up the world trade center are you?
No. Absolutely not. Just saying that the series gained a new relevance after those events is all.
I'm saying it was safe to do that by the time of the spinoffs because of shows like TOS. But I don't think having a female captain was brave by the time of Voyager. A lot of shows were having female leads for decades. It's brave for Trek because I don't think the fanbase is really that progressive. Just look at the reaction she got.

Point taken, but why does something need to be "brave?" Does the fact that Voyager had reflected the change in society where more and more women were starting to gain job positions of authority by portraying a female captain on the show any less relevant?
 
You are supporting Awesome Possum's point that those things were safe by the time of TNG and after. It was not as couragous and risky as it was to put a black person on the show in the 60s. Any "exploration" of homosexuality in TNG, DS9 or VOY was heavily disguised and diluted and not put out there as normal, everyday life such as Uhura on the bridge crew.

What I am saying is that TNG and later shows build on the progress TOS had built.

And as far as your second point there, don't you think some of the writers would have loved to do something more progressive with stories centered around sexuality? Like I said, blame the era, not the show. It was a far different social climate 23 years ago, than today. Executives were the ones who had to answer to the networks, who were in turn fearful of protests by an audience that was less tolerant by today's standards. It's not the show's fault. And by the way, name another US TV show at the same time, that was more progressive. You can't because few were, and none as widely watched as the Star Trek shows.

Instead of nitpicking Trek, how about congratulating it for what it HAS done, and support future shows to help it become even more progressive. Complaining about a 23 year old show does nothing.
 
Point taken, but why does something need to be "brave?" Does the fact that Voyager had reflected the change in society where more and more women were starting to gain job positions of authority by portraying a female captain on the show any less relevant?
Star Trek is one of the few shows that has enough influence to actually take the lead in some areas. But they rather wait until something is so socially accepted that it's no longer a big deal. Having a female captain was a big deal for Star Trek, but really only for Star Trek. They should be congratulated for dragging their heels. The real world is moving past the show and now they're having to play catch up. I just expect Trek to be better.
 
Is playing Klingon, playing Blackface?

http://www.thegeektwins.com/2013/08/the-16-most-surprising-star-trek.html#.V7VUz6Jr_IU

African Americans who played Klingons.
Brota was played by actor Brian Evaret Chandler. Children of Time
DS9
Ch'Pok played by Ron Canada. Rules of Engagement
DS9
Drex was played by Obi Ndefo. The Way of the Warrior
DS9
K'Vagh was played by James Avery. Affliction STE
Klaang was played by Tommy "Tiny" Lister, Jr. Broken Bow
STE
Kohlar was played by Wren T. Brown. Prophecy
STV
Koral was played by basketball star James Worthy. Gambit, Part II
TNG
Kornan was played by Trek veteran Rick Worthy. Soldiers of the Empire
DS9
Kozak was portrayed by John Lendale Bennett. The House of Quark
DS9
Kurn/Rodek was played by Tony Todd. "Sins of the Father"
TNG "Redemption, Part I, II" TNG. Sons of Mogh DS9
Morag was played by Reg E. Cathey. Aquiel TNG
Morak was played by Paul S. Eckstein. Prophecy STV
N'Garen was played by model-turned-actress Gabrielle Union. Sons and Daughters
DS9
Nu'Daq/Telok was played by John Cothran, Jr. The Chase
TNG/Crossover DS9
T'Kar was played by Tim Russ, who played several other Star Trek roles, most notably Tuvok on Voyager. Invasive Procedures
DS9
Thopok was played by Trek regular Phil Morris. Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places
DS9
Toq was played by Sterling Macer. Birthright, Part I,II
TNG
Worf/Col. Worf was played by Michael Dorn. ST:VII/TNG/TNG Movies

This has to be an old question, but in TOS did they make the white people playing Klingons wear shoe polish because there was a limit to their diversity hires per season before advertisers started wandering away?
 
Is playing Klingon, playing Blackface?

http://www.thegeektwins.com/2013/08/the-16-most-surprising-star-trek.html#.V7VUz6Jr_IU

African Americans who played Klingons.


This has to be an old question, but in TOS did they make the white people playing Klingons wear shoe polish because there was a limit to their diversity hires per season before advertisers started wandering away?
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