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Haters of Star Trek: Discovery - wtf?

Do you already hate Discovery?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 9.0%
  • No

    Votes: 183 91.0%

  • Total voters
    201
@Degra1 - Hehe, I agree, hence why I put 'Golden Age of TV' in quotation marks, when replying to Rahul. Not many people agree with me, but I actually still find shows like Star Trek, Stargate SG-1, Farscape, Firefly, Buffy, Angel and Babylon 5 more compelling than a lot of modern dramas (which I noted can be very soap opera like, just like you pointed out). However, as it happens, I think Bryan Fuller might find a happy mix between the two - he seems to be aware how cynical some TV has become - and made an effort to send out the message that this new series will "give hope to a new generation".
 
Frankly I laugh when I hear people saying this is the Golden Age of TV. I've never seen so much crap
In my life. And the supposedly tv series that are so fantastic ain't all that honestly

Sure you can have nudity, vulgar language, sex scenes that wasn't really allowed before on tv but that don't impress me much. Serialized storying isn't something that happened in the last ten years. It's a little more prevalent but tv dramas and tv soaps were doing it decades ago and to better effect. Nowadays shows have such a limited interconnected premise that thanks to LOST the arc storytelling is unnecessarily convoluted with bloated series spanning mythologies, flashbacks/flash forwards that it has totally ruined arc storytelling. Give me a good old fashioned modest ensemble with two or three parallel linear season long arcs that pay off within a season. The type of mystery puzzle piece arc storytelling that's so en vogue now with -How to Get away with murder, Once upon a time, blindspot, Alcatraz, Quantico, Dead of Summer, The Event, V 2.0, Flash Forward etc etc is just fundament flawed

And the so called complex character work is hit or miss. Most of the time it's just writers seeing how pretentious and depraved they can get which got old a long time ago. Other times it feels so dry and academic leacing me detached from the characters that I could care less how complicated they are. They're insufferable or just over the top to showcase acting

And this golden age of tv well it's pacing ain't that hot either. It's either breakneck speed where you can't enjoy anything because you're being assaulted by so much going on. In turn you also get shorter scenes that don't get time to breathe. Or on the other extreme other tv shoes nowadays are slow as molasses and boring as can be

So you'll forgive me if I find this so called golden age severely lacking.
I, for one, am in complete agreement with you.
 
Everybody knows prequels SUCK and sequels are COOL! Just look at The Godfather trilogy. The Godfather Part II, a prequel, was a huge disappointment. I mean, everybody knew that Vito Corleone was gonna live. The Godfather Part III, a sequel, one of the best movies ever made! Right? RIGHT???

(Yeah, I'm being sarcastic.)
 
Frankly I laugh when I hear people saying this is the Golden Age of TV. I've never seen so much crap
In my life. And the supposedly tv series that are so fantastic ain't all that honestly

Sure you can have nudity, vulgar language, sex scenes that wasn't really allowed before on tv but that don't impress me much. Serialized storying isn't something that happened in the last ten years. It's a little more prevalent but tv dramas and tv soaps were doing it decades ago and to better effect. Nowadays shows have such a limited interconnected premise that thanks to LOST the arc storytelling is unnecessarily convoluted with bloated series spanning mythologies, flashbacks/flash forwards that it has totally ruined arc storytelling. Give me a good old fashioned modest ensemble with two or three parallel linear season long arcs that pay off within a season. The type of mystery puzzle piece arc storytelling that's so en vogue now with -How to Get away with murder, Once upon a time, blindspot, Alcatraz, Quantico, Dead of Summer, The Event, V 2.0, Flash Forward etc etc is just fundament flawed

And the so called complex character work is hit or miss. Most of the time it's just writers seeing how pretentious and depraved they can get which got old a long time ago. Other times it feels so dry and academic leacing me detached from the characters that I could care less how complicated they are. They're insufferable or just over the top to showcase acting

And this golden age of tv well it's pacing ain't that hot either. It's either breakneck speed where you can't enjoy anything because you're being assaulted by so much going on. In turn you also get shorter scenes that don't get time to breathe. Or on the other extreme other tv shoes nowadays are slow as molasses and boring as can be

So you'll forgive me if I find this so called golden age severely lacking.

I agree with much of what you say. I don't know if I have a short attention span or what but I'm already bored with the Game of Thrones/Walking Dead etc type of story. In fact, I was bored with them from the get-go. This is not a reflection on how well they are written or acted or their production value. It's just not what I want to see. I understand why some point out that these sort of gritty things happen in real life (no, not zombies but if there were zombies, things would get gritty) which is true but I want an escape from all that.
 
I hate what I have seen so far, want me not to hate it? Show me something good.

All we have seen so far is a rough trailer with an awful design, going to need more then that for STD to win me around.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that TV is better today just because there's relatively more freedom with regard to nudity or profanity and "depraved" characters, although I think that it's generally a good thing that censors and self-appointed moral guardians have less power, so that stories can go wherever they need to go. Do we really want to return to the days where STAR TREK had to fight to show a belly-button, or tiptoe around the topic of birth control in "Mark of Gideon"?

And, yes, I do think that the best TV series these days tend to be more ambitious and adventurous and wittier that many of the hits of the past. I mean, aside from nostalgia, are we really going to argue that Wonder Woman or The Six Million Dollar Man were better written than, say, The Flash or iZombie? Or that Logan's Run and Buck Rogers were better than, say, The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones? Or that Charlie's Angels was better than Alias or Buffy?

And I say that not as a callow youngster, but as a middle-aged guy who remembers what TV was like in the sixties and seventies without any rose-colored glasses.

Which reminds me, Killjoys is on . . ..

I can't speak for Degra1 but, for me personally, yes, I'd rather watch Logan's Run or Buck Rogers. I admit that I'm probably peculiar this way, but I have a weak stomach. I can't watch most television these days because the violence has become way too graphic. I never watch television rated TV-M. Up until a few years ago, television rated TV-14 used to have "safe" levels of violence, but even some TV-14 rated shows have become too graphically violent for me as of late. Decapitations being shown, people having eyes torn out... It's ridiculous, IMO. Dark Matter is rated TV-14, and after I watched the first episode last year and it seemed okie, I bought a season pass for the remainder of the season. Only to watch one of the show's protagonists decapitate a guy in the second episode, and then see the guy's head lay on the ground. I nearly vomited. I haven't watched any of the other episodes, and chalked the money up as a lesson learned. Now I wait at least two months after an interesting looking new TV-14 rated television show premieres, and check a couple of online web sites to see the extent of the show's violence to see if I can safely watch it.

Needless to say, that Star Trek: Discovery will have "more graphic content" has made me wary at the least.
 
"Good old days weren't always so good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." - Billy Joel

Every era has its gems in a sea of crap. Today's TV isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I don't want to go back to what was.
 
I'll get nostalgic and unnecessarily romanticize television of the 80s and 90s any day, and there are some damn fine programs from back then. But TV also has some awesome shows on these days, let's not pretend we're in an age of unremitting crap here. Granted, some shows are overrated (I'm looking you, Game of Thrones) but there's some quality entertainment out there all the same.
 
I don't hate the show but there have been a number of disappointing reveals for me.

  • I don't want a prequel. Everyone hated on enterprise because it was a prequel so they do it again? I don't want to see future alien races shoe horned into the show, like enterprise did with the Borg for example. I would love one set post Nemesis that way they don't have to worry about conflicting with future canon as well as past canon. It also leaves room for TNG, VYG and DS9 cast to make appearances.
  • I am not impressed with the ship. I think it is ugly. I do think they will redesign it before the show though, so I have hope.
  • I am disappointed the show is on CBS all access and now I hear it will have commercials. I just fear this will make the show not get enough viewers by limiting its viewership. I might be wrong, it seems like by being on all access they already have the money to produce the show. So maybe this is a good thing, we will see. For me, i have enough subscriptions (Netflix, prime, HBO and cable tv)and I am not going to shell out for another one.
That being said, I am looking forward to the show and I hope I am wrong and it is completely awesome. There is still a lot of stuff to reveal and I will give it a fair shake.
 
I don't hate the show but there have been a number of disappointing reveals for me.

  • I don't want a prequel. Everyone hated on enterprise because it was a prequel so they do it again? I don't want to see future alien races shoe horned into the show, like enterprise did with the Borg for example. I would love one set post Nemesis that way they don't have to worry about conflicting with future canon as well as past canon. It also leaves room for TNG, VYG and DS9 cast to make appearances.
If you don't want a prequel, fine. However, I don't think ENT was entirely hated because it was a prequel. I think it was disliked largely because it did have a weak start and it contradicted a lot of fannon. Notice how that, in retrospective, you get a lot of internet chatter from people giving it another chance and deciding that it was better then it was given credit for? (Funny thing is that ENT found its feet around season 3 - 4, much a lot of other shows do. ENT was just never given the chance to really prove itself.)

While a post-Nemesis setting could be cool, it could run into licensing problems (with the Star Trek [2009] backstory) and still has the problem of contradictions with future events (like the time cops we meet in VOY and ENT). Also, the time between ENT and TOS has not been that well defined. While we know some details, we don't know everything, so there's more than enough room for more exploration. (I do agree that a show with TNG/DS9/VOY characters guest-starring would be great.)
Fair enough, although I like the ship.
  • I am disappointed the show is on CBS all access and now I hear it will have commercials. I just fear this will make the show not get enough viewers by limiting its viewership. I might be wrong, it seems like by being on all access they already have the money to produce the show. So maybe this is a good thing, we will see. For me, i have enough subscriptions (Netflix, prime, HBO and cable tv)and I am not going to shell out for another one.
Agreed.

That being said, I am looking forward to the show and I hope I am wrong and it is completely awesome. There is still a lot of stuff to reveal and I will give it a fair shake.

That's a good attitude.
 
"Enterprise was just never given the chance to prove itself."

Bullshit.
Space Above and Beyond - One season. Firefly - Less than a season.

Enterprise got way more opportunity than other shows around that time, and it had a LOT of money backing it up, and the team behind it had been around for a decade. They shouldn't need time to "find their legs" like a creative team just starting out. They know this stuff by now. What works, what doesn't work.
 
Like someone else in another thread said, they basically wanted to make TNG/VOY in the 22nd century.

Rather than make a show appropriate to the times in which it was set.

Some of the scripts were actually quite good.

But, they paradoxically wanted to be free from canon constraints - to make a quiet family show - but chose a canon-rich era, known to contain vast political change (the formation of the United Federation of Planets, the start of the Earth-Romulan War) - which is quite the unreasonable expectation, given the difference between desire and reality. It also came off as quite self-entitled. They wanted that era because they wanted to make ENT more like "The Right Stuff", chronicling early spaceflight - we can debate whether they succeeded at that or not, because the show sometimes really did provide this feeling - episodes like "First Flight" tried to capture that Chuck Yaeger/Alan Shepard type attitude - but a lot of people felt they could have gone further in making the era more primitive.

"There is no starship mission more dangerous than that of first contact... centuries ago, disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war..." - Jean Luc Picard

Right off the bat, they alienated a lot of fans by contradicting things that had been accepted as beloved parts of Star Trek's history, for no real plot reason (it would have literally been just as easy not to) - the content of the Star Trek: Encyclopedia and Star Trek: Chronology were ignored - both of them had been scrupulously written from on-screen evidence, using a minimum of speculation - partly to actually aid writers, who could have just flicked to the relevant page, and learned what they needed in seconds.

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One example was a Klingon landing on Earth in Broken Bow - but first contact not being 'disastrous'. Not having the Romulans, Star Trek's first enemy ('Balance of Terror' being older than 'Errand of Mercy'), turn up before the Klingons, was a bit of a slap in the face to their vintage credentials - but wasn't technically an error, just a re-interpretation. There was the decision to have a K'tinga-class ship show up 100 years early just because the producers wanted 'more windows' on the painstakingly built model they would later use, after someone had basically worked nights to prepare it in their own time (honestly, w. t. absolute f.?) But, of course, the absolute daddy of them all - the undisputed worst continuity error in Star Trek's entire history - the Romulan cloaking device needlessly (utterly needlessly), showing up in an episode that did not even require a cloaking ship - contradicting one of Star Trek's all time greatest episodes, "Balance of Terror" - which the producers would have known if they had even bothered to watch TOS's top five episodes, let alone all of TOS.

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And the episode itself? Despite "Minefield" being an utterly fascinating concept, it is, somehow, actually boring to watch. Yep - first contact with the Romulans - a character piece about a captain risking his life for his tactical officer - a ship striking a mine in space - was somehow made boring (that actually takes skill). Which is where ENT's real problems were - it's quality of writing.

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If they wanted a blank canvas, they should not have chosen the 22nd century - if they wanted to chronicle early human spaceflight they (perhaps) should have embraced it more fully (although it actually works in hindsight) - they (perhaps) should have engaged with The Romulan War more fully if they were going to set a show on it's very doorstep, but wanted to make a peaceful show, not a war show (again, dissonance between desire and reality). If they had made the NX-01 genuinely primitive like an Earth alliance ship from Babylon 5, complete with huge fusion engines and rotating centrifugal habitats - done a show in which every spacewalk was a tense moment - it might have worked really well and been remembered as something special in Star Trek's history. As it happens, having a recognizably Starfleet-like ship works alright too, and cements the show's identity like a brand - but still, at the time, it seemed unambitious when Babylon 5, for example, had done it so well.

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Discovery really does not suffer from any of these problems - it's not set at the beginning of spaceflight - it's set in an era in which nothing earth shattering is known to have happened - the only historical context to the era, is the Klingon-Federation Cold War - the only constraints in technology are to not appear too different to TOS/TMP, which is a standard that is actually quite open to interpretation, since we don't really even know what technology was available in Kirk's era. It will allow for highly detailed sets, EVA missions, hull breaches, etc. Also, this time, it is actually being written by someone who has, you know, actually watched TOS. Plus production design teams tend to be really well-researched these days, so I would guess they are doing everything imaginable to make a smart design - the first evidence of this being the selection of a really interesting and appropriate ship.

In hindsight, ENT is a lot stronger than people remember.

But it still requires you to actively forget the missed potential, which is painful to remember.

Discovery has nothing to live up to - it's set in an era that is quiet in terms of known events.

The theme of early NASA-like pioneers was actually a good idea, and could have been done well - but I'm not sure it was really a good idea to do a fourth TV show with a tired team - who basically pitched every episode as if it was a Voyager episode? Even Season 1, and Season 2, are stronger than people remember, especially if you watch them forgetting that the show could have gone for a far more formative feel. Season 3 is as good a drama as Battlestar Galactica in places. Season 4 attempted to tie the show into the wider Star Trek context and succeeded somewhat, but perhaps cut the formation of the Federation too close - so that the Andorians went from war with Vulcan, to binding sovereign union, in a handful of years.

Of course, this post just covers canon and continuity - what many people actually felt was the nail in the coffin for ENT was it's quality of writing - too many forehead-of-the-week episodes with no real hook - great concepts made somehow mundane and boring.
 
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I don't want a prequel. Everyone hated on enterprise because it was a prequel so they do it again?

Enterprise wasn't "hated" because it was a prequel. It was hated because it was BAD. Star Trek was on air continuously for 18 straight years. The writing and character development had become completely stale. It had become a sci-fi soap opera, where it didn't matter if you had missed a single episode or a whole season, things were still exactly the same. Voyager, a sequel series, was also guilty of that, and was equally "hated" by fans.
 
Enterprise wasn't "hated" because it was a prequel. It was hated because it was BAD. Star Trek was on air continuously for 18 straight years. The writing and character development had become completely stale. It had become a sci-fi soap opera, where it didn't matter if you had missed a single episode or a whole season, things were still exactly the same. Voyager, a sequel series, was also guilty of that, and was equally "hated" by fans.

It's ironic that ENT was cancelled AFTER it became what it should have been from the start.

I for one, wanted to see more of the fourth season stories.
 
Meh.....every Star Trek show has it's fans and distractors. What we forget is every show had it's share of excellent episodes AND horrible flops. I think my least favorite was VOY, but even VOY had some terrific episodes.
 
Meh.....every Star Trek show has it's fans and distractors. What we forget is every show had it's share of excellent episodes AND horrible flops. I think my least favorite was VOY, but even VOY had some terrific episodes.

I agree, if TNG had been treated as harshly as ENT, it too would have been cancelled after four seasons. The first season of TNG is simply awful, I don't even watch it anymore. And don't get me started about that horrible "Code Of Honor" episode, which is offensive to blacks and to women (doubly offensive to black women) in a very bad way.
 
It's ironic that ENT was cancelled AFTER it became what it should have been from the start.
Meh.....every Star Trek show has it's fans and distractors. What we forget is every show had it's share of excellent episodes AND horrible flops.

For what it's worth, I agree on both accounts. It's not about "prequel" vs "sequel", it's about "good" vs "bad" writing.
 
The problem is that the writers of ENT thought that they could get away with crap and so they never tried to do a good job, until it was too late.
 
They might have been trying their best, but I think writers sometimes lose their original inspiration - it's very easy to become lost, and forget the original principles you started with.
 
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