• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Been working on an Arrowverse "viewing order"...

Hmm. So, if I throw the '90s Flash into my viewing order just for funsies, when would you guys recommend I watch it? I'm tempted to throw it in between the first and second seasons of Arrow to serve as a sort of prequel to Barry's first appearance on that show in season two, that way there aren't forty-six straight episodes of just Arrow. But I'd gladly consider other suggestions.
 
^^
Before everything I guess.
If you mix it in with the first two seasons of Arrow it's sort of like watching Burton's Batman and Nolan's Batman back to back. You could do it, but it just makes the older one look even older by comparison.
 
Yeah, in retrospect I'm not gonna include it right now. Unless something changes between now and the end of this current season of The Flash (or by the end of the modern show's run, I guess, since I intend to keep this going for as long as the Arrowverse persists) it doesn't really seem like it's narratively connected to the rest of the Arrowverse. All of the various returning cast members playing the same or similar characters can just be chalked up to a quirk of the multiverse.
 
Both Star Trek '09 and DoFP are built on the same basic conceptual idea: to facilitate a way in which their respective creators can honor what came before whilst also allowing themselves the ability to tell stories that aren't ENCUMBERED by what came before.

No, they really aren't. ST'09 was about respecting what came before and allowing it to continue unchanged, because the fans and filmmakers loved the original continuity and wanted to preserve it. DoFP was about repudiating what came before and wiping it away in favor of something better, because the fans and filmmakers hated where the original continuity had ended up and wanted a do-over.

That's explicit in the stories themselves. In ST'09, the time travel is merely an incidental plot device to provide a metatextual explanation for the difference between timelines. The characters in the film don't even discover that Nero came from the future until more than halfway through, and that's merely part of the villain's backstory and motivation, with the main plot itself being otherwise uninvolved with time travel. In DoFP, the time travel is key to the whole plot -- it's the heroes in the future who use time travel in order to undo the apocalyptic timeline they exist in. Changing history is the driving goal of the whole story. It's completely different.


The only difference is the way in which they go about accomplishing that basic conceptual goal. With DoFP and the future X-Men films, Singer, Kinberg, and Co. took the approach of creating an alternate timeline in the truest sense of the word, which is to change history so that what was destined to happen before is no longer destined to happen, leaving the future completely 'open'; it's the "Back to the Future"/"The Flash"/"Legends of Tomorrow" approach to time travel and timelines.

But that is NOT the truest sense of the term "alternate timeline." You're misunderstanding the definition. An alternate timeline is a parallel timeline, one that coexists alongside another, like Earth-1 and Earth-2. What you're talking about is an altered timeline. Those are two different words. "Alternate" does not mean "altered," as in changed. It means "alternative," as in other. Like "an alternate route" to get to a destination. That's not a change to the original route. The original route still exists; there's just another one alongside it.

So, yes, you're right that the goal was to replace the original history. That's what I've been saying all along. But you're wrong to confuse that with an alternate timeline, which is a new timeline that does not replace the original history. And because you're confusing those two opposite concepts, you're mistakenly assuming that DoFP and ST'09 are the same thing when they're in fact complete opposites.


In a nutshell, what I'm arguing against is the idea that the events of the pre-DoFP films don't "count" any more, which goes against everything that both Bryan Singer and Simon Kinberg have said regarding the franchise and why they chose to do what they did with DoFP.

And that is not what I'm saying at all. Obviously the fact that they used to happen still matters as part of the narrative, in the same way that Marty McFly's original history in Back to the Future matters to the narrative. But again, you're confusing two separate issues, the question of narrative significance and the question of whether something continues to exist in-universe. So you think I'm saying one thing when I'm actually saying something completely different.
 
If you want to be really bold, watch the first few minutes of The Flash 2x18: "Versus Zoom" and stop it when he's running and disappears. Then watch all of Supergirl 1x18: "Worlds Finest". Then continue with the rest of The Flash 2x18. In "Versus Zoom", Barry is running while testing a device. He disappears for a second then re-appears. This takes place between 5:03 and 5:04. In that time, he had travelled to Supergirl's Earth and helped her defeat some bad guys.
 
I don't know if I'll get that particular. I haven't updated my list in a while, though. At this point I might as well wait until all the shows are done for the season and then try to do some binging over the summer. :lol:
 
From my understanding, ST'09 was originally rewriting/replacing the timeline in the same physical universe, just like DofP, and the producers only changed their stated intent with the fan backlash..... they were meant to be the same, and use a similar mechanic for changing the timeline. Its really open for debate on whether changing the past can honestly create another physical universe that exists alongside the original one, or whether it is all one physical universe that can be rewound and re-recorded on.
 
From my understanding, ST'09 was originally rewriting/replacing the timeline in the same physical universe, just like DofP, and the producers only changed their stated intent with the fan backlash.....

I'm not sure if that's the case. Given that at least two members of the "Supreme Court," Roberto Orci and Damon Lindelof, were themselves passionate Trekkies, and Alex Kurtzman a moderate Trekkie (IIRC), there were enough fans involved from the start that I doubt any external backlash was needed to defend the original timeline. Also, Orci's online comments back at the time revolved around his research into quantum theory and what it said about alternate timelines, which is that they would coexist rather than replacing each other. So it came from getting the science right, no backlash required.

Its really open for debate on whether changing the past can honestly create another physical universe that exists alongside the original one, or whether it is all one physical universe that can be rewound and re-recorded on.

That depends on whether you're speaking in terms of fictional plot devices or real physics. The "re-recording" idea may be popular in fiction, but it's scientifically absurd. The idea of "changing" a moment in time is logically contradictory; change requires a "before" and an "after," and a single moment in time cannot come after itself. So you can't "replace" one version of that moment with another. The only way there can be two or more versions of that moment is if, by definition, they coexist simultaneously.

In real physics, there are only two possibilities: One, there's only a single, immutable timeline, and any time travel would be a self-consistent loop creating its own history; and two, parallel timelines coexist and a time traveler would create an alternate timeline alongside the unaltered original. Indeed, by the quantum-mechanical model formulated by David Deutsch, time travel is probabilistic -- if there's a chance that history will be changed and a chance it won't be, then the time traveler will follow both paths, themselves splitting into one version that succeeds in changing history and another version that fails. People tend to assume that the closed-loop model contradicts the branching model, that it has to be one or the other, but the Deutsch model says that it would always be both. Which is an idea that doesn't get explored much in fiction, if at all -- the notion that any time traveler seeking to change history would split into two selves, one fated to succeed and one to fail. (Or several fated to succeed or fail in different ways, depending on how many potential outcomes there are.)

So either way, the original history must survive unchanged. If something happens, it happens. It's part of the larger equation of the universe and cannot be erased from that equation. If there are alternative versions of the same events, then they are part of the same overall probabilistic equation of the universe, meaning that all possible outcomes coexist. One cannot "replace" the other. The perception that one timeline is changed into a different one is an illusion caused by the time traveler's worldline crossing from one timeline into the other. It's only in the traveler's subjective perception that one comes before the other. Objectively speaking, they both occur simultaneously.
 
Skywalker, I would recommend watching the Trickster episodes from 90's Flash just before the 2015 version... As an approximate background of that villain.l

And the whole ST9 vs DoFP thing. space I see both AZ a way to continue the franchisez for many years to come. Both had actors from Old and next Generations and I feel both honoured the past but also opens the door for a long-term future. I am not caught up with whether it's an alternate timeline or revised timeline. The bottom line is both franchises can continue well into the future if they desire.
 
Yeah, I saw that. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll have to figure out which color to use for it, since yellow is taken by Vixen. :p
I'd say change Constantine's color to a grey or something darker to fit the show, give Vixen an oragne like tan and make Ray yellow. Vixen's costume in the comics seemed tan to me.
 
Yeah, in retrospect I'm not gonna include it right now. Unless something changes between now and the end of this current season of The Flash (or by the end of the modern show's run, I guess, since I intend to keep this going for as long as the Arrowverse persists) it doesn't really seem like it's narratively connected to the rest of the Arrowverse. All of the various returning cast members playing the same or similar characters can just be chalked up to a quirk of the multiverse.
*ahem* ;)

This baby is due for an update anyway.;);)
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top