Fundamentally Important Aspects of ST Even Fans Misunderstand

[Nightdiamond]

It's clear that at this point Lester envies Kirk's position as a starship captain, perhaps because it's what she sees as having kept him from her. The Enterprise is in effect the "other woman" he jilted her in favor of. And it's equally clear that at this point she "would not be allowed to serve as captain," for good reason, due to her obvious mental instability and her impostory. It might even be clear that she believes she is disqualified because of her gender, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really in denial of the likely intent here, but in retrospect there's just enough room to circumvent or ignore it. And unless you've got a workable theory for why Starfleet would allow, then categorically disallow, then allow again women to command starships, I think the bulk of the canonical evidence suggests that we should do just that in this case.

What makes the situation different with respect to fleet structure and political authority, you might ask? Because there the differences we see in evidence from the 22nd century to the 23rd to the 24th can actually be seen to make sense as a logical and broadly consistent progression over time, IMO. But of course, YMMV.

The most typical explanation is the out of universe one; the later shows retroactively cleaned up that embarrassing piece of sexism, but not being able to edit out the dialog in this episode still leaves an odd taste.

Actually your interpretation fits almost perfectly to explain this, but there is still too much conflicting dialog from the characters to ignore the problem.

(Janice as Kirk): Now you know the indignity of being a woman. For you this agony will soon pass, as it has for me. Quiet. Quiet! Believe me, it's better to be dead than to live alone in the body of a woman.

JANICE: Oh, I'm never going to be the captain. Never. Kill him.

This episode was clearly pointing to something being wrong.

It's not too much of stretch, since lately some fans have been saying that trek humans aren't really all that socially evolved as they claimed: that they're the same as "us" only more prosperous.

By the way, this is one of my favorite episodes. It's not supposed to be funny, I know, but it's unintentionally hilarious .

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I mostly agree, but still think these lines give us what we need to paper it all over:

"...to get the power she craved, to attain a position she doesn't merit by temperament or training. And most of all, she wanted to murder James Kirk, a man who once loved her, but her intense hatred of her own womanhood made life with her impossible."

In short, Lester is the very epitome of an unreliable narrator on this subject.

The faults and ills in actual evidence are hers rather than Starfleet's.

 

[urbandefault]

I mostly agree, but still think these lines give us what we need to paper it all over:

"...to get the power she craved, to attain a position she doesn't merit by temperament or training. And most of all, she wanted to murder James Kirk, a man who once loved her, but her intense hatred of her own womanhood made life with her impossible."

In short, Lester is the very epitome of an unreliable narrator on this subject.

The faults and ills in actual evidence are hers rather than Starfleet's.

I believe the clinical term is "batshit crazy."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I mostly agree, but still think these lines give us what we need to paper it all over:

"...to get the power she craved, to attain a position she doesn't merit by temperament or training. And most of all, she wanted to murder James Kirk, a man who once loved her, but her intense hatred of her own womanhood made life with her impossible."

In short, Lester is the very epitome of an unreliable narrator on this subject.

The faults and ills in actual evidence are hers rather than Starfleet's.

Those lines contain the misogynistic subtext that women don't have the temperament to be starship commands in general. You're familiar with propaganda that women don't make good military commanders because they're "too emotional," right? It's basically that. The bit about training there is just a red herring, because the subtext is also that women aren't even suitable to be trained.

Look at how the episode ends up: "Her life could have been as rich as any woman's, if only... if only." Huh?!? Not as rich as anybody's, but "as rich as any woman's"? That's one of the keys right there that there is in fact an implied differentiation between the roles of men and women.

If that's not convincing enough, consider that the episode is basically just a hacked up retelling of "Turnabout", a film (based on the book of the same name) about a married couple who realize, after body-swapping and making a mess of each others' daily activities, that traditional gender roles are for the best.

 

[Tenacity]

... the Baku ... Or even study them without their permission

Why stop with the Baku? When does Starfleet ever check to see if a people will give their permission to be studied?

Starfleet allows women captains, full stop, and it allows them regardless of what the intent of "Turnabout Intruder" was when it was written.

Are you taking into account that during all of TOS we saw only one woman above the rank of lieutenant?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Are you taking into account that during all of TOS we saw only one woman above the rank of lieutenant?

Two: Number One and Dr. Mulhall, unless you really believe that Pike's first officer was just a lieutenant.

But, either way, so what? What does it have to do with the point I was making?

 

[JeffinOakland]

Why stop with the Baku? When does Starfleet ever check to see if a people will give their permission to be studied?Are you taking into account that during all of TOS we saw only one woman above the rank of lieutenant?

It has been noted that there's a certain patronizing "National Geographic" aspect to the benevolent spying on the alien civilizations involved in ST's mission to meet "strange new worlds.". There's something a bit "ugly American" about treating the locals like they're the ones who are weird or flawed in some way.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Those lines contain the misogynistic subtext that women don't have the temperament to be starship commands in general. You're familiar with propaganda that women don't make good military commanders because they're "too emotional," right? It's basically that. The bit about training there is just a red herring, because the subtext is also that women aren't even suitable to be trained.

Look at how the episode ends up: "Her life could have been as rich as any woman's, if only... if only." Huh?!? Not as rich as anybody's, but "as rich as any woman's"? That's one of the keys right there that there is in fact an implied differentiation between the roles of men and women.

If that's not convincing enough, consider that the episode is basically just a hacked up retelling of "Turnabout", a film (based on the book of the same name) about a married couple who realize, after body-swapping and making a mess of each others' daily activities, that traditional gender roles are for the best.

But that's only if we choose to read that into the text. The text itself is not actually explicit enough to make no other reading possible. Ultimately, I thought we were in agreement that the intent behind it is fungible and negligible.

But if we are looking to intent to guide our interpretation, I'll also add in that the term "starship" was used by the writers of TOS to refer specifically to the type of ship the Enterprise was, of which there were only a dozen in the entire fleet, perhaps even fewer at the time Kirk was given command of his (and at the time of "Turnabout Intruder," if those lost during the course of the series had not all been replaced by that point). Maybe it's actually true that none of these particular ships had female captains, lending support to Janice's perception of that small circle as a boys only club, but that still doesn't mean there was an actual Starfleet regulation blanketly disqualifying women from command. Indeed, that prospect is off the table even in this timeframe without need of considering Hernandez in ENT, since Number One was clearly allowed to assume command of the Enterprise in Pike's absence in "The Menagerie," and Uhura was allowed to assume command in "The Lorelei Signal" (TAS).

(Never let it be said that I've learned nothing from my many discussions with @Timo over the years! )

 

[Nightdiamond]

Why stop with the Baku? When does Starfleet ever check to see if a people will give their permission to be studied?Are you taking into account that during all of TOS we saw only one woman above the rank of lieutenant?

Legally and ethically speaking, the Federation seriously violated some laws. The Federation didn't even exist when the Baku settled the planet. Humans had barely invented the warp drive.

It seemed like the Federation simply claimed the planet as theirs knowing full well it was inhabited.

I think Mighty Monkey's explanation is the most logical one so far, but there was way too much suggestion in that episode.

The problem is, the more we try to explain what Janice said, the odder the characters sound when they talk.

 

[The Old Mixer]

(A Janice Lester thread...and an Insurrection thread...at the same time...! )

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But that's only if we choose to read that into the text. The text itself is not actually explicit enough to make no other reading possible. Ultimately, I thought we were in agreement that the intent behind it is fungible and negligible.

But if we are looking to intent to guide our interpretation, I'll also add in that the term "starship" was used by the writers of TOS to refer specifically to the type of ship the Enterprise was, of which there were only a dozen in the entire fleet, perhaps even fewer at the time Kirk was given command of his (and at the time of "Turnabout Intruder," if those lost during the course of the series had not all been replaced by that point). Maybe it's actually true that none of these particular ships had female captains, lending support to Janice's perception of that small circle as a boys only club, but that still doesn't mean there was an actual Starfleet regulation blanketly disqualifying women from command. Indeed, that prospect is off the table even in this timeframe without need of considering Hernandez in ENT, since Number One was clearly allowed to assume command of the Enterprise in Pike's absence in "The Menagerie," and Uhura was allowed to assume command in "The Lorelei Signal" (TAS).

(Never let it be said that I've learned nothing from my many discussions with @Timo over the years! )

Yeah. We're almost on the same page. It's just that I'm not on board with the idea of looking at dialog in "Turnabout Intruder" from certain points of view to solve its problems. It's not important enough to me to salvage the episode, any more than it is to salvage "Spock's Brain" or the overly long elevator ride from the bridge to deck two at the end of "The Enterprise Incident." Deck two is the deck right below the bridge, period. It's not somewhere vaguely down in the basement of the saucer or of the whole ship; whoever let that line of dialog pass wasn't on the ball that day regarding the intended layout of the ship. "Turnabout Intruder" is simply a bad episode, down there with "The Alternative Factor." All of these examples are fixable only if you actually rewrite them, is what I'm saying. IMO, these are all examples of when canon and continuity are (or should be) at odds.

In addition, papering over the issues by reading dialog in this case a certain way actually does a disservice to the broader issue of women's rights, because it gives coded language a pass. That's something that rubs me the wrong way, and that's one reason why I feel the way I do about "Turnabout Intruder." I don't look to "The Enterprise Incident" for deck numbers, and I don't look to "Turnabout Intruder" for information about the sex of ship's captains in any way, shape, or form.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Two: Number One and Dr. Mulhall, unless you really believe that Pike's first officer was just a lieutenant.

Since Number One was explicitly identified as being a Lieutenant, that's what I believe, yes. Pike said that she was a Lieutenant, and he ought to know.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Since Number One was explicitly identified as being a Lieutenant, that's what I believe, yes. Pike said that she was a Lieutenant, and he ought to know.

Oh, gods, you're right, she is.

Can I add that one to the list of dialog absurdities, too?

No seriously, my mistake, I had forgotten that. Obviously, that line was written before Roddenberry got a better idea of the ranks aboard the ship, perhaps as reflected in the less complicated sleeve braids at that point.

 

[urbandefault]

(A Janice Lester thread...and an Insurrection thread...at the same time...! )

Just when you thought you'd seen everything . . .

 

[Nightdiamond]

(A Janice Lester thread...and an Insurrection thread...at the same time...! )

There was a debate on toilets about 3 pages long a few pages back

 

[Tenacity]

Two: Number One and Dr. Mulhall, unless you really believe that Pike's first officer was just a lieutenant.

Doctor Mulhall was the one woman above lieutenant I meant. And given the ship only had 200 personnel, not only do I think number one was a lieutenant, but I also suspect Pike rank was that of commander.

But, either way, so what? What does it have to do with the point I was making?

You arrived at a conclusion and wish to edit out any evidence that opposes that position.

There was a single female (Human) captain a century before TOS, and we don't see another female captain until the opening scene of TVH. Thirteen years (in-universe) after Turnabout Intruder.

CorporalCaptain, societies change, and then they change again, and then they adapt to that change. Not everything sticks. Surely you noticed just how misogynistic the culture inside of Starfleet was during TOS. That isn't to say it's stays that way, or it reflects the society that exists outside of it.

But it is what we see during that time period within Starfleet.

McCoy: "On the other hand, she's a woman. All woman. One day she'll find the right man and off she'll go, out of the service.

 

[T'Arwen]

.

There was a single female (Human) captain a century before TOS, and we don't see another female captain until the opening scene of TVH. Thirteen years (in-universe) after Turnabout Intruder.

CorporalCaptain, societies change, and then they change again, and then they adapt to that change. Not everything sticks. Surely you noticed just how misogynistic the culture inside of Starfleet was during TOS. That isn't to say it's stays that way, or it reflects the society that exists outside of it.

But it is what we see during that time period within Starfleet.

What if Discovery was set between ENT and TOS? If there was a female captain in it, would your view change or would you say that was a retcon?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You arrived at a conclusion and wish to edit out any evidence that opposes that position.

That's not what I was doing at all.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Oh, gods, you're right, she is.

Can I add that one to the list of dialog absurdities, too?

No seriously, my mistake, I had forgotten that. Obviously, that line was written before Roddenberry got a better idea of the ranks aboard the ship, perhaps as reflected in the less complicated sleeve braids at that point.

You might be interested to know that in his mini series CREW, John Byrne came up with a clever explanation for how the "most experienced" officer and first officer on the Enterprise could be a mere Lieutenant.

Spoiler: Number One's rank

Number One was intentionally refusing promotions so that she could stay "where the action is," only accepting the promotions she had to for the sake of her career. So her rank was not commensurate with her experience. We actually see her start her career with a fellow Ensign who is later seen as top brass while One still hasn't reached Captain.