Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[WebLurker]

They had several reviews and articles on the film. A lot of hype and discussion, as I recall. I also had several different books, the novelization and all the toys I could get my hands on (looking at Ebay makes me sad now).

Don't blame you. I managed to get a slightly used copy of the original hardcover TMP novelization for about a couple bucks (and even then I think I might've had a coupon that netted it for free.

Kind of.

Yeah, I'm not sure. It seems like with TMP, at least, it was initially received reasonably well (not the Second Coming that the fan hype was expecting, but a fun day at the theaters). Then, somewhere along the line, it became a movie you were supposed to hate, and I'm not really sure how that happened, esp. since to this day, while not the best of the series, I still can't find anything wrong with it.

Mechanical things that she seems to have a knack for, I don't necessarily relate to as Force based. versus overt use of Force powers such as resisting Kylo's mind probe, persuasion and in combat.

As for relevancy, I think its a matter of distinction. Some skills appear to be very natural or stuff they learned in their environment while matters feel more like they are intuitive to them and only come o ut as they developed a greater awareness of the Force.

TFA lines up quite a few Chekov's guns for Rey. (People who complain about her wining the duel at the end should re-watch the movie closely and pay attention. Everything to set that up is there, the movie just trusts that it doesn't have to spoon-feed everything to the audience.)

As far as Force abilities go, there are a lot of instances where Force-sensitives have been shown to do things untrained, so I was never bothered with this (esp. since canon has linked the mind trick -- the hardest to explain -- with Rey building off of what happened when Kylo Ren was mind-probing her).

 

[fireproof78]

Don't blame you. I managed to get a slightly used copy of the original hardcover TMP novelization for about a couple bucks (and even then I think I might've had a coupon that netted it for free.

Yeah, it makes me laugh. I'm pretty sure I still have a soft cover of that novel. But, it's the ROTS novel that I personally find the most enjoyable.

Yeah, I'm not sure. It seems like with TMP, at least, it was initially received reasonably well (not the Second Coming that the fan hype was expecting, but a fun day at the theaters). Then, somewhere along the line, it became a movie you were supposed to hate, and I'm not really sure how that happened, esp. since to this day, while not the best of the series, I still can't find anything wrong with it.

My main problem with TPM is that while a lot of stuff happens, it all feels very episodic and its overall impact to the story in the rest of the saga feels marginal, at best. The structure of the Old Republic isn't very well explained, and Chancellor Vallorum's deferral to the Trade Federation representative felt oddly underwhelming.

The only thing that sticks out to me in TPM is the planet Naboo and "Duel of the Fates."

TFA lines up quite a few Chekov's guns for Rey. (People who complain about her wining the duel at the end should re-watch the movie closely and pay attention. Everything to set that up is there, the movie just trusts that it doesn't have to spoon-feed everything to the audience.)

As far as Force abilities go, there are a lot of instances where Force-sensitives have been shown to do things untrained, so I was never bothered with this (esp. since canon has linked the mind trick -- the hardest to explain -- with Rey building off of what happened when Kylo Ren was mind-probing her).

You'll get no argument from me on this one. I think Rey is set up and foreshadowed in an incredibly way for her final step in her fight against Kylo Ren. I had no problem with Rey's abilities. Mary Sue? Yeah, right.

 

[Set Harth]

My main problem with TPM is that while a lot of stuff happens, it all feels very episodic and its overall impact to the story in the rest of the saga feels marginal, at best.

It did induct a certain "A. Skywalker" into the Jedi order, provide the distal cause of the process which would ultimately culminate in the central driving factor of his eventual turn to the dark side, and make one "S. Palpatine" the Chancellor of the Republic.

So, maybe a teensy tiny bit of impact?

 

[fireproof78]

It did induct a certain "A. Skywalker" into the Jedi order, provide the distal cause of the process which would ultimately culminate in the central driving factor of his eventual turn to the dark side, and make one "S. Palpatine" the Chancellor of the Republic.

So, maybe a teensy tiny bit of impact?

And is treated as a footnote to the larger action.

 

[WebLurker]

Yeah, it makes me laugh. I'm pretty sure I still have a soft cover of that novel. But, it's the ROTS novel that I personally find the most enjoyable.

I think the paperbacks were the better value, since the original one had an interview with the author (at least the one I checked out from the library did) and the re-issue with the movie's 3-D re-release had a bonus short story. I actually thought the TMP novelization was okay. Nothing stands out to me, but it reads decently enough. Although, the Tuskan scene packs a real punch after seeing ATOC.

I myself have very mixed feelings about the ROTS novelization. While it's well-written, it's so different from the movie that I find it distracting, to the point of annoyance. Laugh if you will, but my favorite novelization is the junior one for TFA, by Michael Kogge. First of all, the writing style is more ambitious than a script translated into prose form; it reads like it was intended to be "literature" (if you can call a tie-in that). I also really like the bonus scenes added into the story (most of which were created by the author from whole cloth), since they really enhance the story (IMHO). There's also the bias that the extra stuff is canonical, but that's kind of a perk.

You'll get no argument from me on this one. I think Rey is set up and foreshadowed in an incredibly way for her final step in her fight against Kylo Ren. I had no problem with Rey's abilities. Mary Sue? Yeah, right.

Nice to hear. I also belong to a Star Wars forum and there, I've had to make my case with people who disagree. Fair enough, since everyone's entitled to their opinion, but this's one case where I really never really understood how those people processed the movie.

My main problem with TPM is that while a lot of stuff happens, it all feels very episodic and its overall impact to the story in the rest of the saga feels marginal, at best.

Not sure about the last part, as I'll explain below, but fair enough if you didn't like the structure.

The structure of the Old Republic isn't very well explained, and Chancellor Vallorum's deferral to the Trade Federation representative felt oddly underwhelming.

Which parts didn't you think was well-explained?

I think the point of the Trade Federation and Vallorum was the former using their clout and the bloated legal process to their advantage. Vallorum sounds very resigned when he agrees to their demands, like he knows that it's not right, but it's within the rules and he can't overturn it.

The only thing that sticks out to me in TPM is the planet Naboo and "Duel of the Fates."

Those were good parts.

It did induct a certain "A. Skywalker" into the Jedi order, provide the distal cause of the process which would ultimately culminate in the central driving factor of his eventual turn to the dark side, and make one "S. Palpatine" the Chancellor of the Republic.

So, maybe a teensy tiny bit of impact?

And is treated as a footnote to the larger action.

I personally agree with Set Harth. TMP also introduced the idea of the Chosen One prophecy, which is discussed in the later movies; sets up the Trade Federation's dislike of Padme in ATOC and their inital dealings with Sidious, as Dooku describes a version of also in ATOC; is Qui-Gon's only appearance on camera, which sets up the revelation of his Force ghosting in ROTS; the idea that Anakin was birthed by the medi-chlorians is set up here, which has payoff in ROTS with Palpatine's version of Darth Plagueis's career; lays what minimal foundations there were for the Anakin/Padme relationship; and sets up important stuff about the Sith and the dark side beginning to creep back.

IMHO, I think it leaves quite an impact.

 

[fireproof78]

But, does TPM leave an impact as film by itself or just as set-up? That's my larger question. We get a lot of exposition but not a lot in the way of story that feels like it can stand alone. ANH feels very self-contained, and could be the only Star Wars film.

TPM has to wait for either books or sequels in order to have a pay off. That's not a good story and that's not good film making.

I think there is a lot of potential in TPM, but the story just doesn't work for me, and the characters are rather flat and spout exposition not having conversations.

 

[Reverend]

^Well TPM does tell it's own contained story when you look at it with an eye towards Padme being the protagonist, not Anakin, Obi Wan or Qui Gon. It's her story about how her planet was invaded and what she had to go through to free her people. She's in almost every scene, has something to say about every decision even though Qui Gon is leading the way and ultimately is the one who ends the crisis.
Her thunder is stolen a little in that last part since it's Anakin that "lucked" out and blew up the control ship, but by that point, she had the Viceroy, who was a personal coward and would have caved under threat, army or no army.

 

[Mr Light]

I would argue that the events of TPM could have been in a novel. A lot of important events happened in novels. Some of the biggest reveals and explanations and set-ups of the Prequel Trilogy occurred in Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Lord, and Darth Plageuis. Not to mention the Clone Wars micro series (and, later, the Clone Wars CGI series).

 

[WebLurker]

But, does TPM leave an impact as film by itself or just as set-up? That's my larger question. We get a lot of exposition but not a lot in the way of story that feels like it can stand alone. ANH feels very self-contained, and could be the only Star Wars film.

TPM has to wait for either books or sequels in order to have a pay off. That's not a good story and that's not good film making.

Well, TMP was designed to be part of a trilogy, not a stand-alone movie with sequels. Using your argument, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring was a bad movie, since it's payoff was delayed until two sequels.

I think there is a lot of potential in TPM, but the story just doesn't work for me, and the characters are rather flat and spout exposition not having conversations.

I didn't have those problems, but fair enough.

I would argue that the events of TPM could have been in a novel. A lot of important events happened in novels. Some of the biggest reveals and explanations and set-ups of the Prequel Trilogy occurred in Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil, Dark Lord, and Darth Plageuis. Not to mention the Clone Wars micro series (and, later, the Clone Wars CGI series).

But the tie-ins can't have so essential information that you "need" to read them. None of those books did (and they're not canonical now).

 

[Red Shirt]

Saw it last night, thought it was crap.

I'd spoiled myself thoroughly beforehand so I thought I was prepared for the....weaker...aspects of the story, but what I wasn't prepared for was the relentless and often inappropriate jocularity, the masturbatory congratulatory tone, and the way the potentially interesting story about Rey and Finn sort of faded into the background as the story wandered through a perfunctory and unconvincing rehash of the ANH Death Star plot.

At no point did I believe that any of the characters were in any real danger. I never felt like Starkiller Base was a real location that posed a real threat. The Republic and Resistance and First Order never felt like plausible organizations staffed by actual people. And I never got the sense that I was watching real people do real things; instead, I saw actors winking at the camera while role-playing all their favorite original trilogy moments. I get that they and Abrams were having fun, but I found it very grating.

It's the first $200 million fan film, with all the shortcomings that implies.

What a disappointment.

IMO, TFA is an underwhelming remake of ANH with current SFX added and the original cast shoehorned in to garner buzz boosting tickets sales.

 

[Mr Light]

<<But the tie-ins can't have so essential information that you "need" to read them. None of those books did (and they're not canonical now).>>
But they did. :-) Those books explained all the big mysteries of the Prequels. If you just watch the movies, you never learn who Sifo-Dias or, or about Darth Plageuis, or who created Anakin. Those are vital, central questions.

 

[fireproof78]

<<But the tie-ins can't have so essential information that you "need" to read them. None of those books did (and they're not canonical now).>>
But they did. :-) Those books explained all the big mysteries of the Prequels. If you just watch the movies, you never learn who Sifo-Dias or, or about Darth Plageuis, or who created Anakin. Those are vital, central questions.

That really should have been explored.

 

[JD]

I think Sifo-Dias is probably the only one of those that had any real impact to the story of the Prequels. Plageuis and Anakin's origins don't really have much to do with the specific story being told in the three movies by themselves. They're nice bits of background, but I haven't read Darth Plageuis and I don't feel like I'm missing anything I need for the prequels.

Which book was it that gave the EU version of Sifo-Dias story?

 

[Mr Light]

Labyrinth of Evil explained the origin of the clone army and Sifo-Dyas.

Anakin being seemingly born of immaculate conception doesn't have much to do with the Prequels?

 

[Set Harth]

<<But the tie-ins can't have so essential information that you "need" to read them. None of those books did (and they're not canonical now).>>
But they did. :-) Those books explained all the big mysteries of the Prequels. If you just watch the movies, you never learn who Sifo-Dias or, or about Darth Plageuis, or who created Anakin. Those are vital, central questions.

The books in question actually stopped short of completely clarifying these issues, leaving them somewhat ambiguous.

In Labyrinth of Evil we found out that Sidious had told Dooku that Sifo had contacted the Kaminoans ( and had then ordered Dooku to kill Sifo ). But we didn't know for certain that Sidious was telling the truth; some argued that he was not.

In Darth Plagueis, the same author went a lot further in strongly hinting that Sifo did indeed make the initial order, but again stopped short of full confirmation. The book featured Plagueis manipulating Sifo by suggesting the idea, and even had Sifo later make a remark to Dooku indicating that he was up to something, but also had Plagueis admit that even if Sifo didn't follow through they would work around that.

Similarly, on the issue of Anakin's conception, the Plagueis book strongly implied that Anakin was created by the Force in response to what Plagueis and Sidious were doing, but this was expressed as Plagueis' opinion on what had happened as opposed to "word-of-god" omniscient truth, while there was a curiously worded passage in the text regarding Plagueis' attempts to create Force-sensitive life which could be interpreted to mean he really had created Anakin. So there was still room for ambiguity, though IIRC the author indicated in interviews his belief that Anakin had been created by the Force just as Plagueis believed in the novel.

It ended up being "new-canon" sources ( post-Disney sale ) that definitively confirmed Sifo's role in the creation of the clone army.

 

[Mr Light]

The first time I read Plagueis I thought it was debatable who did it, but I was learning towards Plagueis. On my 2nd and 3rd readings (I love that book), I think it's 100% clear that the Force did it, striking back against Plagueis.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, TMP was designed to be part of a trilogy, not a stand-alone movie with sequels. Using your argument, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring was a bad movie, since it's payoff was delayed until two sequels.

I'm going to attempt to clarify my TPM stance because I'm starting to mistate what I mean. Let me try this.

TPM is a fun sci-fi movie that interests me in terms of the technology and the ships. It doesn't get me invested in the characters because I struggle to identify the characters beyond their actions, what they do. There feels like there is little definition to who they are as people. I'm sure that many will argue with me, and that's fine-if you like the characters, than I'm happy for you.

But, the impression that I had, at 14, leaving the theater, was "This didn't feel like a Star Wars movie." I honestly, even after rewatching it with my younger brothers, and I will attempt to rewatch it again, but the film feels like not Star Wars. There is a weird, tonal, disconnect from TPM and the rest of the PT.

Since you use the example, I'll to my best to compare the two. The Fellowship of the Ring works for me because the LOTR films do not feel episodic-they feel like one big film. The payoff to the film isn't until Return of the King that see everything all come together.

TPM doesn't feel like the first act of a three act story. It feels very much like "The Hobbit" to Star Wars, the "Pitch Black" to "Chronicles of Riddick." Same characters, for the most part, but a whole different feel.

I didn't have those problems, but fair enough.

For me, it comes back to the characters.

But the tie-ins can't have so essential information that you "need" to read them. None of those books did (and they're not canonical now).

I would disagree on that point. Anakin's conception is never explained, the clone army is equally never explained, as well as Force ghosts. That's a lot of details that never make it in to the films.

I think Sifo-Dias is probably the only one of those that had any real impact to the story of the Prequels. Plageuis and Anakin's origins don't really have much to do with the specific story being told in the three movies by themselves. They're nice bits of background, but I haven't read Darth Plageuis and I don't feel like I'm missing anything I need for the prequels.

Which book was it that gave the EU version of Sifo-Dias story?

Anakin's backstory wouldn't bother me so much if there wasn't a big deal made about it in Qui-Gon's reaction, and the Jedi Council's response, that it was something unique.

 

[Set Harth]

On my 2nd and 3rd readings (I love that book), I think it's 100% clear that the Force did it, striking back against Plagueis.

It's 100% clear that Plagueis thinks that, at any rate.

Anakin's conception is never explained, the clone army is equally never explained, as well as Force ghosts.

In TPM Anakin's conception is implied to be due to the Force according to Liam Neeson's dialogue. Of course, this is only Qui-Gon's theory, but it's all the audience had to go on until we got to ROTS and the implication that the Sith may have had something to do with it.

In the case of the clone army it's fairly clear what the deal was, in broad strokes. The only part that is not clear is the question of whether or not Sifo-Dyas actually ordered the army before being killed off.

In the case of Force ghosting enough is explained: we discover that the ability is passed down to Obi-Wan and Yoda by Qui-Gon.

 

[WebLurker]

I'm going to attempt to clarify my TPM stance because I'm starting to mistate what I mean. Let me try this.

TPM is a fun sci-fi movie that interests me in terms of the technology and the ships. It doesn't get me invested in the characters because I struggle to identify the characters beyond their actions, what they do. There feels like there is little definition to who they are as people. I'm sure that many will argue with me, and that's fine-if you like the characters, than I'm happy for you.

But, the impression that I had, at 14, leaving the theater, was "This didn't feel like a Star Wars movie." I honestly, even after rewatching it with my younger brothers, and I will attempt to rewatch it again, but the film feels like not Star Wars. There is a weird, tonal, disconnect from TPM and the rest of the PT.

I didn't honestly notice a tonal shift myself, but fair enough.

Since you use the example, I'll to my best to compare the two. The Fellowship of the Ring works for me because the LOTR films do not feel episodic-they feel like one big film. The payoff to the film isn't until Return of the King that see everything all come together.

TPM doesn't feel like the first act of a three act story. It feels very much like "The Hobbit" to Star Wars, the "Pitch Black" to "Chronicles of Riddick." Same characters, for the most part, but a whole different feel.

Fair enough.

For me, it comes back to the characters.

Fair enough.

I would disagree on that point. Anakin's conception is never explained, the clone army is equally never explained, as well as Force ghosts. That's a lot of details that never make it in to the films.

I thought between TMP and ROTS that Anakin's conception was explained well enough (I took the conceived by medi-chlorians to be correct, and I'm fine with the how that happened remaining a mystery. The clone army I kind of get, but ROTS showing that Palpatine planned both sides of the war made more details just extra facts. The Force ghosts were explained in ROTS, with Qui-Gon showing Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do it.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Anakin's backstory wouldn't bother me so much if there wasn't a big deal made about it in Qui-Gon's reaction, and the Jedi Council's response, that it was something unique.

Fair enough. I, for one, did think that it highlighted the fact that this kid had great potential, and Qui-Gon believed it was because the kid was the Chosen One (which the other Jedi seemed skeptical of, at least at first).

 

[Venardhi]

The Force Ghost thing wasn't explained at all. Yoda just tosses out a line about how Qui-Gon told him about it and that he will teach him. One of the more cringeworthy storytelling fails in a trilogy full of them.