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Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

So....?


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On a more serious note, the only part of the midi-clorians that bothers me is that it is used to justify Anakin's awesomeness without him having to do anything. It makes him less sympathetic and far more difficult to enjoy as a character. I also feel like it doesn't add anything to the story. It feels clumsy and forced in to the narrative without any payoff.

I kind of saw it all as setting up his downfall. He seems to have a natural tendency to the flaw of pride, which would be further enhanced by the fact that he's one of the best in his career and has been told a lot that he's the fulfiller of a prophecy centuries in the making and become the ultimate Jedi. Also, I don't think that Anakin is the main character of TMP. I kind of thought Qui-Gon was; he's the one in charge of the mission, and the story focuses more on him deciding what to do when he thinks he's found the the Chosen One then it does on Anakin in this capacity. So, I don't see it as quite the same deal with the other major Jedi characters, Luke Skywalker and Rey, were time is taken to set up the skills they demonstrate, since in those cases they are the lead characters (like how we see Luke uses a rifle before we see him holding his own in a firefight, or how Rey's ability to use a quarterstaff well translates into her being able to know a few basics for lightsaber combat).

And, it wouldn't be that hard to pay it off. Obi-Wan talks about a "symbiote circle" between the Gungans and the Naboo. Qui-Gon talks to Anakin about the midi-clorians as symbiotes as well. It would be neat to see that explored more.

I suppose, although I saw the theme of the movie more as showing characters making good and bad decisions in a bad situation that's far worse then they could've realized and the ethics of that. For example, Qui-Gon was right about Anakin being the Chosen One, but was it right for him to insist on training him even if the Council said "no" (not to mention if it was the right call period, given how things turned out in the later movies!).
 
And, it wouldn't be that hard to pay it off. Obi-Wan talks about a "symbiote circle" between the Gungans and the Naboo. Qui-Gon talks to Anakin about the midi-clorians as symbiotes as well. It would be neat to see that explored more.
Not really the same thing. The Gungans & the Naboo have an ecological connection because they share a planet, while the midi-chlorians are quite literally biological, intracellular symbiotes.

You're not wrong though; the way they used it as "proof" of Anakin's preternatural abilities was a lazy move. Mostly because prior to that point, the concept hadn't even been introduced to the viewers, so it's significance is bound to fall flat.

Bit of a catch-22 though since what we do see of Anakin's abilities (his piloting skills, intuition, remote viewing and implied foresight) also lacks any real context since we have no idea what a force user his age would normally be capable of and thus no way to directly compare.

So in all fairness, though the execution certainly leaves a lot to be desired, from a pure plot mechanics POV I can't see how else this could have been conveyed within the story that was being told.

Like a lot of the prequel's flaws, it's a fundamental one and "fixing it" is nowhere near as simple as people seem to think. Most of them require a square-one rewrite of the whole trilogy.
 
Before the prequels, it was assumed that Anakin would have started out older. Slightly younger than Luke when he meets Yoda, but still a late teen at the youngest. We were not prepared for a ten year old pilot. Without certain types of camera focuses and things like zooms, close up slow motions, or sound tiggers, it it really hard to show off what they said Anakin was doing in the pod race and later. I could guess something like "Seed mode" in later Gundam series, or some maybe something like Charlie Evans in Star Trek. But those don't seem to be Lucas' action, "faster, more intense" style of directing. Also it might just be they couldn't get that across and then added the midichlorian scene to make up for it. Because the only other scene that fits is Anakin accurately reading Mace's PADD device under testing as well as Yoda reading him. His flying skills at the Battle of Naboo come off like luck and survival skills rather than the Force.
 
I kind of saw it all as setting up his downfall. He seems to have a natural tendency to the flaw of pride, which would be further enhanced by the fact that he's one of the best in his career and has been told a lot that he's the fulfiller of a prophecy centuries in the making and become the ultimate Jedi. Also, I don't think that Anakin is the main character of TMP. I kind of thought Qui-Gon was; he's the one in charge of the mission, and the story focuses more on him deciding what to do when he thinks he's found the the Chosen One then it does on Anakin in this capacity. So, I don't see it as quite the same deal with the other major Jedi characters, Luke Skywalker and Rey, were time is taken to set up the skills they demonstrate, since in those cases they are the lead characters (like how we see Luke uses a rifle before we see him holding his own in a firefight, or how Rey's ability to use a quarterstaff well translates into her being able to know a few basics for lightsaber combat).
That is another thing that TMP could use was a bit more of a main character focus, because it shifts a bit from Qui-Gon focus to Anakin, but doesn't really seem to give them the weight like Luke or Rey, as you discuss. We don't really have a sense of these people in their daily lives.

Also, I agree that Anakin should totally be a Greek style tragedy in his tale, with hubris being his downfall. As I said in many posts, the fundamental elements of the fall of Darth Vader (as Lucas described it) are very Greek in their design. The problem is, we don't see anything that makes us want Anakin to succeed other than "Dark Side=bad."

I suppose, although I saw the theme of the movie more as showing characters making good and bad decisions in a bad situation that's far worse then they could've realized and the ethics of that. For example, Qui-Gon was right about Anakin being the Chosen One, but was it right for him to insist on training him even if the Council said "no" (not to mention if it was the right call period, given how things turned out in the later movies!).
This is a good point, and symbiosis doesn't have to be the central theme, but it certainly could have been one that was woven throughout and added a greater overall sense of
Midichlorians are not going to destroy America.
:shrug:
It's "symbiont circle".
Hey, thanks :techman:

Not really the same thing. The Gungans & the Naboo have an ecological connection because they share a planet, while the midi-chlorians are quite literally biological, intracellular symbiotes.
That really isn't my point nor was I trying to say that they needed to be exactly, one-to-one, analogues of each other. The larger theme of "symbiosis" was more my point, that in the shared benefit of individuals working together.
You're not wrong though; the way they used it as "proof" of Anakin's preternatural abilities was a lazy move. Mostly because prior to that point, the concept hadn't even been introduced to the viewers, so it's significance is bound to fall flat.

Bit of a catch-22 though since what we do see of Anakin's abilities (his piloting skills, intuition, remote viewing and implied foresight) also lacks any real context since we have no idea what a force user his age would normally be capable of and thus no way to directly compare.

So in all fairness, though the execution certainly leaves a lot to be desired, from a pure plot mechanics POV I can't see how else this could have been conveyed within the story that was being told.

Like a lot of the prequel's flaws, it's a fundamental one and "fixing it" is nowhere near as simple as people seem to think. Most of them require a square-one rewrite of the whole trilogy.
Yeah, it's an endemic problem to the plot of the overall film that would require an entire rewrite, I agree.

That said, I think it would have been nice to see Anakin have abilities that he couldn't quite explain or use the Force without thinking about it. A great moment could have been in the pod race when the cable comes loose and he uses the tool to grab it. It would have been neat to see him
Before the prequels, it was assumed that Anakin would have started out older. Slightly younger than Luke when he meets Yoda, but still a late teen at the youngest. We were not prepared for a ten year old pilot. Without certain types of camera focuses and things like zooms, close up slow motions, or sound tiggers, it it really hard to show off what they said Anakin was doing in the pod race and later. I could guess something like "Seed mode" in later Gundam series, or some maybe something like Charlie Evans in Star Trek. But those don't seem to be Lucas' action, "faster, more intense" style of directing. Also it might just be they couldn't get that across and then added the midichlorian scene to make up for it. Because the only other scene that fits is Anakin accurately reading Mace's PADD device under testing as well as Yoda reading him. His flying skills at the Battle of Naboo come off like luck and survival skills rather than the Force.
I agree with most of this. I think that there is possibility to show Anakin using the Force in a way that he isn't aware of it, but it requires a little bit different style of directing.
 
Before the prequels, it was assumed that Anakin would have started out older. Slightly younger than Luke when he meets Yoda, but still a late teen at the youngest. We were not prepared for a ten year old pilot. Without certain types of camera focuses and things like zooms, close up slow motions, or sound tiggers, it it really hard to show off what they said Anakin was doing in the pod race and later. I could guess something like "Seed mode" in later Gundam series, or some maybe something like Charlie Evans in Star Trek. But those don't seem to be Lucas' action, "faster, more intense" style of directing. Also it might just be they couldn't get that across and then added the midichlorian scene to make up for it. Because the only other scene that fits is Anakin accurately reading Mace's PADD device under testing as well as Yoda reading him. His flying skills at the Battle of Naboo come off like luck and survival skills rather than the Force.
Yep. They do a rather terrible job of showing his Force aptitude.
 
Before the prequels, it was assumed that Anakin would have started out older. Slightly younger than Luke when he meets Yoda, but still a late teen at the youngest. We were not prepared for a ten year old pilot. Without certain types of camera focuses and things like zooms, close up slow motions, or sound tiggers, it it really hard to show off what they said Anakin was doing in the pod race and later. I could guess something like "Seed mode" in later Gundam series, or some maybe something like Charlie Evans in Star Trek. But those don't seem to be Lucas' action, "faster, more intense" style of directing. Also it might just be they couldn't get that across and then added the midichlorian scene to make up for it. Because the only other scene that fits is Anakin accurately reading Mace's PADD device under testing as well as Yoda reading him. His flying skills at the Battle of Naboo come off like luck and survival skills rather than the Force.
An easy way to show how most Force sensative people Anakin's age compare to him would have been him using his powers in a group setting, and we see him capable of way more than any of the other kids. They could have easily done that instead of the test scene, or even just added it into the movie since it wouldn't need to that long to get the point across.
 
I see now that a lot of dislike toward the Prequel movies were based upon assumptions made by a lot of fans and the media.


An easy way to show how most Force sensative people Anakin's age compare to him would have been him using his powers in a group setting, and we see him capable of way more than any of the other kids. They could have easily done that instead of the test scene, or even just added it into the movie since it wouldn't need to that long to get the point across.


I really do not see how this is necessary. And as far as I'm concerned, Lucas' method of conveying Anakin's Force potential struck me as a lot more plausible than Abrams and Kasdan's method of conveying Rey's potential in "The Force Awakens".
 
I always thought the test scene was not about Anakin reading the images on the testing screen correctly, but having the Jedi Masters watching his force aura as he did it.
Everything has this energy field and how strong and it's potential for development is important- a lot of applicants might be able to do the parlor tricks but that is as far as they can take it.
 
I see now that a lot of dislike toward the Prequel movies were based upon assumptions made by a lot of fans and the media.

Well, a time goes on, a lot of the people who grew up with those movies (and seem to be the most kindly to them) are becoming the mainstays of the fanbase, while the older audiences who didn't (and seem to be the hardest sells) are a shrinking demographic, so I think that prequel dislike is going to fade away over time by default.



I really do not see how this is necessary. And as far as I'm concerned, Lucas' method of conveying Anakin's Force potential struck me as a lot more plausible than Abrams and Kasdan's method of conveying Rey's potential in "The Force Awakens".

I think it was different circumstances. I personally never had a problem with either method.
 
Well, a time goes on, a lot of the people who grew up with those movies (and seem to be the most kindly to them) are becoming the mainstays of the fanbase, while the older audiences who didn't (and seem to be the hardest sells) are a shrinking demographic, so I think that prequel dislike is going to fade away over time by default.
Sometimes that works in funny ways. I grew up with the prequels, but when I got older I concluded that the original trilogy was infinitely better.
 
I see now that a lot of dislike toward the Prequel movies were based upon assumptions made by a lot of fans and the media.
First of all, not my experience. I went to the theaters for opening week for each PT, and came away with the same impression every time. My friends had similar reactions as did the members of the SW fan group that I was a part of.

Obviously, that is not everyone's experience. Did the hate get blown out of proportion? Of course it did. In many ways, similarly to Abrams' Star Trek. But, the reviews I read of TPM in time and such were actually fairly moderate, neither slamming nor overly praising the film.


I really do not see how this is necessary. And as far as I'm concerned, Lucas' method of conveying Anakin's Force potential struck me as a lot more plausible than Abrams and Kasdan's method of conveying Rey's potential in "The Force Awakens".
Shown how? I never felt like I saw Anakin's Force abilities in a way that felt like he was a natural. Compare that to Rey in which she does some things that feel like she would learn from her life experiences and other things that are more Force based, culminating in her battle with Kylo.
 
But, the reviews I read of TPM in time and such were actually fairly moderate, neither slamming nor overly praising the film.

Do you mean time ( the concept ) or Time? I'll assume the latter.

Time flip-flopped on TPM. The article they published on the eve of its release was overwhelmingly positive cheerleading type stuff. By a week or two later, the backlash had set in. That issue had an image in its upper right corner of Jar Jar freaking out complete with caption "THE REVIEW IS IN! OH NOES!" or something like that.

It's not unlike how Harry Knowles completely flip-flopped on AOTC when he could see that the emergent popular consensus was against him. I've seen someone on a message board cave in and recant their opinion of a certain X-Men film due to pressure from others.

Compare that to Rey in which she does some things that feel like she would learn from her life experiences and other things that are more Force based, culminating in her battle with Kylo.

How do her life experiences relate to Force use? And when you get to "other things that are more Force based", how were things that are not Force based relevant to the question?
 
Do you mean time ( the concept ) or Time? I'll assume the latter.

Time flip-flopped on TPM. The article they published on the eve of its release was overwhelmingly positive cheerleading type stuff. By a week or two later, the backlash had set in. That issue had an image in its upper right corner of Jar Jar freaking out complete with caption "THE REVIEW IS IN! OH NOES!" or something like that.
They had several reviews and articles on the film. A lot of hype and discussion, as I recall. I also had several different books, the novelization and all the toys I could get my hands on (looking at Ebay makes me sad now).
It's not unlike how Harry Knowles completely flip-flopped on AOTC when he could see that the emergent popular consensus was against him. I've seen someone on a message board cave in and recant their opinion of a certain X-Men film due to pressure from others.
Kind of.


How do her life experiences relate to Force use? And when you get to "other things that are more Force based", how were things that are not Force based relevant to the question?
Mechanical things that she seems to have a knack for, I don't necessarily relate to as Force based. versus overt use of Force powers such as resisting Kylo's mind probe, persuasion and in combat.

As for relevancy, I think its a matter of distinction. Some skills appear to be very natural or stuff they learned in their environment while matters feel more like they are intuitive to them and only come o ut as they developed a greater awareness of the Force.
 
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