I agree. There were too many ships and they were too willing to sacrifice themselves. The Vengeance would have been toast.
Spoilers Beyond: The Swarm VS USS Vengeance
- Thread starter Skipper
- Start date
It's possible that he was not aware of it's construction until Starfleet sent out probes into the nebula. Or he may not have been willing to sacrifice his entire fleet without a guarantee he could make an attack that would also make a statement.
Or he could have rightly thought that an attack during the construction phase would have left himself vulnerable to the wrath of Starfleet and without the bioweapon he would have no way to deal with the overwhelming force they could bring to bear on him.
He may not be able to think clearly by that point.
"Venegeance" would probably just not allow herself to be trapped in such situation. She is dreadnought: the warship, not suited for exploration or rescue missions. I.e. she would hardly been caught on the low planetary orbit, where maneuvering is limited - she simply would not be send in such situation.
Let's not forget, that Kraal actually didn't want the confrontation with STARSHIPS in any non-ambush situation. He used distress signal that Uhura&Co send to lure starships away of "Yorktown". In open combat, a group of starships would just be able to hold distance and decimate the swarm, while drones would be forced into the tailchase.
Unless the script called for.
Er, bioweapon means nothing in ship-to-ship combat.
That's true - but this is an "in-universe" type discussion so we usually leave such realities out of the picture.
Of course - but the bioweapon is a verifiable threat that would moderate a Starfleet response. You don't attack the guy with the nuke until you can figure out how to disarm the nuke.
Again: let's recall that the important plan of Krall's plan was to lure starships from "Yorktown" into the nebula, so they would stuck here.
And later he basically threw all his armada against outdated, almost weaponless "Franklin".
Basically, it's demonstrated the point: his drones were absolutely useless agains starships in non-ambush battle situation. In actual space combat - outside the planetary gravity well, where the relative velocities are close to thousand kilometers per second - it's almost impossible to use ramming tactic. Slighest maneuvering from the starship would threw the drone's trajectory solutions hundreds of kilometer off-target (and also let's not forget the relativistic effects and light time lag).
And later he basically threw all his armada against outdated, almost weaponless "Franklin".
Basically, it's demonstrated the point: his drones were absolutely useless agains starships in non-ambush battle situation. In actual space combat - outside the planetary gravity well, where the relative velocities are close to thousand kilometers per second - it's almost impossible to use ramming tactic. Slighest maneuvering from the starship would threw the drone's trajectory solutions hundreds of kilometer off-target (and also let's not forget the relativistic effects and light time lag).
You mean initially he was supposed to capture "Yorktown" intact with all population and use civilians as a living shield against possible Federation counterattack?
Hm... actually, this strategy may be reasonable, for Krall point of view. If the Federation strike the "Yorktown", millions would die, and many would blame the Federation for such response. If the Federation would not attack - it would make her look weak (especially if Krall would continue his raids against Federation worlds).
No. The original question was "Why didn't Krall attack the Yorktown during its construction, thus precluding the need for the bioweapon?"
I mentioned that (along with other possible reasons) that he may have wished to have a nuclear deterrent so to speak in his pocket before revealing the scope of threat his Swarm was to the Federation.
Because if he would capture the "Yorktown" during construction - i.e. with zero population - the Federation would just shrug and blow the base with Krall inside. He need civilians, so the Federation would be reluctant to just destroy "Yorktown".
I am feeling a tiny bit frustrated, so I will break this down.
1) Krall makes a big attack on the Yorktown BEFORE he gets the bioweapon - destroying the station
2) Starfleet says "Whaaaaa?" and then spends the next few years grinding him and his Swarm into dust.
ORRRRRRR
1) Krall destroys all life in Yorktown with a bioweapon.
2) Starfleet says "Whaaaa?" and spends the next few years attempting to figure out how to beat the weapon, possibly giving him time to enact his revenge on the entire quadrant.
1) Krall makes a big attack on the Yorktown BEFORE he gets the bioweapon - destroying the station
2) Starfleet says "Whaaaaa?" and then spends the next few years grinding him and his Swarm into dust.
ORRRRRRR
1) Krall destroys all life in Yorktown with a bioweapon.
2) Starfleet says "Whaaaa?" and spends the next few years attempting to figure out how to beat the weapon, possibly giving him time to enact his revenge on the entire quadrant.
Ah. You mean that the Starfleet, not knowing the exact potential of weapon (i.e. not knowing that it's almost impotent) would be reluctant to start the attack, because of the threat to use bioweapon against habitable worlds, yes?
Bingo. Any reduction in response would allow Krall time to build his forces and attack more planets.
Not in any productions to date. Only in the tech manuals, which aren't canon and haven't been consistent with the show... well, EVER.
Ramming is only effective between starships which, unlike natural hazards, have the capacity to force their way through forcefields and defy gravity in unnatural ways. Electromagentic radiation cannot do this, but starships (and drones) can.
So it doesn't matter how strong your x-ray pulse is, a normal deflector shield will repel it easily. Repelling another warp-driven spacecraft with its own shields and offensive systems is another matter entirely.
Or they could just correct their solutions to account for the ship's forward motion using a simple derivative function. It's not really hard.
If by "not as significantly" you meant "not at all" then you were indeed correct.
As far as I recall, in TNG "Enterprise" once chased Borg Cube through the Solar System quite quickly...) Not years, not even days - mere minutes.
You are not correct. The nuclear blast always produced some EM pulse, by the reaction of X-rays with target material:
SGEMP impacts space system electronics in three ways. First, x-rays arriving at the spacecraft skin cause an accumulation of electrons there. The electron charge, which is not uniformly distributed on the skin, causes current to flow on the outside of the system. These currents can penetrate into the interior through various apertures, as well as into and through the solar cell power transmission system. Secondly, x-rays can also penetrate the skin to produce electrons on the interior walls of the various compartments. The resulting interior electron currents generate cavity electromagnetic fields that induce voltages on the associated electronics which produce spurious currents that can cause upset or burnout of these systems. Finally, x-rays can produce electrons that find their way directly into signal and power cables to cause extraneous cable currents. These currents are also propagated through the satellite wiring harness.
I don't think destroying Yorktown itself was actually his objective.
Remember that Krall's objective is to get REVENGE on the Federation and prove that their dream of egalitarian multi-species unity is all bullshit (as his underling says, "He wants to save you from yourselves.") So it's not Yorktown he's after, specifically, but the millions of people living there.
It's basically some more of the usual terrorist theatrics we've become familiar with in modern times. He feels betrayal and he feels rage and he wants to share those feelings with those he feel wronged him. He also probably assumes the bioweapon will give him control of Yorktown, whose industrial base he can then use to build up his forces for an even bigger confrontation once he moves from the frontier into the heart of Federation space. It probably won't work, but try telling HIM that.
Sure. But you don't recall them giving an actual quote for the ship's velocity at impulse power, because that didn't happen and the writers of TNG didn't think that far ahead.
In the vacuum of space, there IS no target material, only the bomb casing and associated electronics. The "pulse" in that case is a broad-spectrum emission from the initial fireball and is primarily re-emitted in the infrared through visible and ultraviolet spectrum.
Microwaves and radio waves are a secondary product and require the presence of a strong magnetic field, which is why a small EMP is generated even at ground level. In the vacuum of space, the pulse would only occur in a planet's magnetosphere and then MOSTLY perpendicular to magnetic force lines (e.g. downwards toward the surface).
And all this assumes that Krall's ships wouldn't be hardened against x-ray emissions in the first place. An FTL capable spacecraft pretty much HAS to be, so X-ray based weapons would be useless from the get go.
And that STILL ignores the fact that photon torpedoes DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. At least two different TOS episodes conclusively show they are not area effect weapons, do not use antimatter in their warheads, and do not produce a high explosive yield on impact. Three movies into the Reboot timeline and we have seen NOTHING that suggests that anyone in the universe uses nuclear-based or nuclear-similar warheads in projectile weapons; even the Narada's highly advanced torpedoes didn't have that characteristic and were deadly NOT for their explosive yield but for their capacity to efficiently penetrate shielding.
Oh yeah. And all cases when they detonated with large blasts are just ignored) And photon torpedoes named photon torpedoes just for fun. And General Order 24 was just for fun, because Federation didn't have any area effect weapon.
Please, this is just going ridiculous. To explain the obvious inability of modern-day film crews to create non-nonsensical space combat scene, you jury-rigged the terrible mess of internal contradictions, unfounded claims and selective attitude toward canon. This is ridiculous.
P.S. I see no reason to continue the discussion. The selective attitude toward canon just not the type of argument that could be used. If you want to claim this as your victory, do as you please.
An armor-piercing shell detonates with a "large blast" too. That doesn't make it a nuclear weapon. Or, for that matter, an "area effect" weapon.
Yep. Just like how the Proton rocket isn't actually made out of protons, and the Falcon 9 does not actually have feathers.
Of course they do. They're just not called "photon torpedoes."
Things OFTEN get ridiculous when a teenager decides he is the smartest person in the universe and then gets all butthurt when nobody believes him.
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