Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

[Guy Gardener]

Love is more important than sex, I'm assured.

If Seven of Nine was run over with a steam roller, and then only survived as a head in a jar, she could still create a new unimatrix to live a life in, or to just have intimate relations in, if she chooses not to abandon the real world completely.

The one where Harry fell in love with a hologram (Alter Ego) that turned out to be a quadriplegic alien voyeur bound to a medicinal slime bath, even after getting a good look at all that, Tuvok was still into her romantically... Although isn't he married?

Am I remembering a bit wrong?

Oh, it was a totally "I wasn't already seeing someone" situation.

Regardless the male gender is less superficial in the future.

 

[2takesfrakes]

If all that metal scraping and rending her innards took 20 to 30 years off Seven's life expectancy, then it's no wonder she picked a bloke who was borderline 50 to settle down with who was probably going to expire of natural causes around about the same time she did.

Am I saying that the terminally ill should mostly date foggies?

Not really, but it's a considerate thing to do, when you consider the consequences of wittingly widowing some poor bugger for 50 years... [EDIT] You pick a 50 year old for a boy friend because they have gotten the kid thing out of their system, or they were smart enough to realise that it's an awful lot of work just to invent a lout who will sell your new TV to buy meth.

There's definitely some Food for Thought, here, especially the notion that their pairing was about more than a trivial diversion for them both ... so much more. Being Naomi's play mum would've helped to compensate, some, for Seven's infertility. She could still extrapolate and glean some important lessons from motherhood, within that context, thus putting her ever more in touch with her femininity. Janeway could've provided Chakotay with a child/children, but by the time they were 8, or 10, she'd find it difficult to keep up with them, becoming easily knackered - and frequently in need of a siesta.

As to Seven's selecting Chakotay, because she believes she won't be around long, is an interesting one. Whilst it would not be a very long life between the old Man and the terminally ill Borg lady, it could still be a very enjoyable one. Again, offering strong evidence that there was nothing inherently wrong, at all, with Chakotay and Seven ending up together ... even if it was, from an audience perspective, out of the blue and totally unexpected. Their relationship would be sufficiently complex to be worthy of investigation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Can't carry a child naturally.

The technology is there to make a baby that is genetically her own in conjunction with any chosen other mate, without using her own body as a carrier.

Which means it might be an issue of pride on her part.

 

[stardream]

Tuvok was still into her romantically...

I never got that but that doesn't mean anything. What I took from that was he finally had someone 'intelligent' to talk to.

 

[DigificWriter]

The foreshadowing of Chakotay and Seven's relationship is definitely present, even if it wasn't something they actually ever intended to follow up on.

I've personally never understood the objections to the pairing, even if it seems incongruent at first glance, but that's because I believe that "you can't help who you love".

 

[Catarina]

I never got that but that doesn't mean anything. What I took from that was he finally had someone 'intelligent' to talk to.

yeah, he admired her logic and appreciated her own objection for social occasions. he felt comfortable at best.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The effect Marina had in "ALTER EGO" is most interesting. Had Harry Kim gotten a good look at her True Self, finally, he would've told Tuvok, "... she's beastial. There's no way, in hell, I'd ever have gotten with her, had I known." And Tuvok would've been all like, "and yet, you were fully prepared, even eager, to terminate our friendship over her, when you were deceived into believing that she was a Smokin' Hotty!" Even Tuvok's interest in her, such as it was, would've diminished, somewhat, had he realised that she had a face you wouldn't want to wipe your feet on.

It's amusing, actually, how Marina states that she's "lonely by choice." Yeah, honey ... I'm sure of it. My female friends and/or acquaintances get VERY antsy, if they're not with somebody for any notable length of time. They're all like, "oh! But it's so hard finding someone ... 'Out There,'" when, in reality, they don't want their ability to attract a mate to come into question. In short? It's not surprising, really, how whacked-out Marina is. It's such a STAR TREKKIE concept, that we should be allowed to feel sorry for her, despite it all. Even aliens need somebody. Even ... aliens!!!

 

[Guy Gardener]

All background holograms are sorta equally Pretty, like they're Californian actors from the mid 1990s.

That's not what drew Kim to Marina.

As a "spy" infiltrating the ship, needing to understand humanity, and know as much about the Federations as possible, Marina was nice to him, attentive and asked Kim about his day. A woman being kind to this gerbil was a totally foreign concept, so he reacted a little to much like a trained dog.

The function of a spy to to create a trusting, perhaps loving relationship where there are no secrets. She lubricated Harry's anxiety and massaged his ego, until he was telling her Voyager's shield frequencies and other fascinating information that confirmed how brave, strong, intelligent and handsome he was to this windsailing instructor.

Harry would do anything to be near her, and make her happy, because, she's the only woman (that wasn't his mother) in the universe who pretended that he was special.

 

[Catarina]

when, in reality, they don't want their ability to attract a mate to come into question. In short? It's not surprising, really, how whacked-out Marina is. It's such a STAR TREKKIE concept, that we should be allowed to feel sorry for her, despite it all. Even aliens need somebody. Even ... aliens!!!

I enjoyed being lonely by choice for awhile. my own apartment. own bed was awesome. No snoring in my ear. only my bathroom for reasons the sexes complain about. It was great. I think you're onto something. that women worry about the ability to attract a mate over need for companionship. No wonder there are so many wrongfully matched people out there. desperation not to be scrutinized perhaps.

 

[stardream]

Eh...my attitude in college was I was fine if I had a boyfriend, I was fine if I didn't. My daughter had the same attitude. Oddly enough...we always seemed to find them. Not being desperate apparently can be attractive in its own way.

I think Guy is right. Marina looked for a way to infiltrate the ship and found it in Harry but Tuovk was what she was really looking for but she didn't know it until she found him...if that makes sense.

I thought in the future people weren't judged by their looks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

TNG The Outcast.

CRUSHER: It's just a mild concussion. You're going to be fine. This will reduce the inflammation.
SOREN: Doctor, you are female.
CRUSHER: Yes.
SOREN: Forgive me, I do not mean to be rude, but I'm curious. What is it like?
CRUSHER: Well, it's just the way I am. I've never really thought about what it's like.
SOREN: I've noticed you tend to have longer hair, and you arrange it more elaborately. And you apply colour to your bodies.
CRUSHER: Colour?
SOREN: You put colour on your mouths, and your eyes, your cheeks, your fingernails. The men don't.
CRUSHER: That's true.
SOREN: Then it is up to women to attract the men.
CRUSHER: Oh, no. Men want to be attractive too, believe me. They just go about it differently.
SOREN: No colour.
CRUSHER: No colour. They like to pretend they're not doing anything to attract a woman, even when it's the most important thing on their minds.
SOREN: This is very confusing. Then, are women considered more superior, or are men?
CRUSHER: Neither. In the past, women were often considered weak and inferior. But that hasn't been true for a long time.
(Riker enters)

Courtship has a lot of unnecessary steps, when it really boils down to some variation of the phrase/question... "I like you, do you like me?"

 

[2takesfrakes]

Well ... the problem with "courtship" has to do with our Human Awareness, actually. Animals push, shove and fight for the right to mate. Even though, in STAR TREK - particularly in The Classic Series, but throughout, really - Men sometimes fight for their women, to initiate their instinct for "presenting," Civilisation demands that fights become symbolic. "To The Victor Go The Spoils" no longer applies. So ... what's the Alternative? These ritualistic, psychological and internal Snap Judgments. It's a very interesting side-effect from the development of Human Consciousness.

 

[LJones41]

All background holograms are sorta equally Pretty, like they're Californian actors from the mid 1990s.

That's not what drew Kim to Marina.

As a "spy" infiltrating the ship, needing to understand humanity, and know as much about the Federations as possible, Marina was nice to him, attentive and asked Kim about his day. A woman being kind to this gerbil was a totally foreign concept, so he reacted a little to much like a trained dog.

The function of a spy to to create a trusting, perhaps loving relationship where there are no secrets. She lubricated Harry's anxiety and massaged his ego, until he was telling her Voyager's shield frequencies and other fascinating information that confirmed how brave, strong, intelligent and handsome he was to this windsailing instructor.

Harry would do anything to be near her, and make her happy, because, she's the only woman (that wasn't his mother) in the universe who pretended that he was special.

From where did you get this idea?

 

[Guy Gardener]

From watching TV shows about spies.

Nikita, Covert Affairs, Alias, Chuck, others. If you want someone to reverse their moral outlook, you give them money, or sleep with them until the good turn evil or the evil turn good, that is if you happen to be better than average at sex.

Sure Marina wasn't on a plot to destroy Voyager, but she wanted to find out as much information as quickly as possible while totally lying about who she was and why she wanted to know about Voyager, the Federation and everyone on the ship.

Harry is the weakest link.

I'm wondering why Seska didn't try to bang Kim into being treasonous? Gotta wonder why Michael Jonas was so loyal, don't you?

Much later in The Disease, Harry's heart (endlessly fornicated with genitals) totally lead him to fall in love with a liar who was using him to destroy a civilization. He felt empty at the end of that because she had lied about loving him the hole time.

Admiral Janeway used him, emotionally manipulated Harry by acting like his mother, not his lover, in Endgame to make him trust her, and do what she needed him to do, even though her plan was to destroy the universe, and 30 years of good history.

Harry Kim is the weakest link.

 

[Lance]

Chak and Kate in seasons one and two are like those two in the blossom of a new romance, finding out things about each other, oblivious in love to the little things that annoy them.

By season seven, it's more like that point in a relationship where those little things like making chewing noises, cutting your toenails with your teeth, and locking yourself away in your quarters for weeks on end are no longer adorable quirks, but big things that make the other person roll their eyes and say "AGAIN WITH THE FARTING IN THE SONIC SHOWER?!?"

I'd wager that after seven years, Chuckles was more than happy to assimilate himself into Seven's collective. I'm sure he feels like he dodged a bullet, and if there's one thing our Annika is, she's consistent.

 

[2takesfrakes]

... Bottom Line?

Chakotay's gotta be drawn, like a line, to the female lead of the show, because he's the resident Alpha Male, onboard. The Male & female leads have to be romantically linked and/or involved - at the very least, the 'hope' of their getting it on has to be kept alive. And no matter what the credits say, Kate wasn't the lead, anymore, after Jeri Ryan paraded herself onscreen. And if Ryan suddenly decided that she was sick of waking up to Braga's hideous and ridiculous-looking mullet, every morning, and passing out on the set because of her catsuit choking her, all the time ... VOY would've had to close up shoppe, when she left. Oh! But stalwart Mulgrew's not going anywhere! Who gives a shit? The star of the show's left. Stick a fork in it ... it's done.

 

[Guy Gardener]

How long was Kathryn engaged to Mark?

This is from Shattered, so it's Janeway before Caretaker talking...

JANEWAY: My fiance gave me that book as an engagement gift. I've never lent it to anyone.

For that to have been something worth saying, the engagement would have to have been running for more than two years, but I feel it's closer to ten.

Oh.

Mark thinks that their marriage (someday somewhen) is a trip to Hell? Or that he is promising that he is willing to go on a massive quest to cross the universe and fight demons to find her and rescue her... Except that mark didn't.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

... Bottom Line?

Chakotay's gotta be drawn, like a line, to the female lead of the show, because he's the resident Alpha Male, onboard. The Male & female leads have to be romantically linked and/or involved - at the very least, the 'hope' of their getting it on has to be kept alive. And no matter what the credits say, Kate wasn't the lead, anymore, after Jeri Ryan paraded herself onscreen. And if Ryan suddenly decided that she was sick of waking up to Braga's hideous and ridiculous-looking mullet, every morning, and passing out on the set because of her catsuit choking her, all the time ... VOY would've had to close up shoppe, when she left. Oh! But stalwart Mulgrew's not going anywhere! Who gives a shit? The star of the show's left. Stick a fork in it ... it's done.

Why not to ask the question directly to producers? At less, we will know who was the real star of Star Trek (Mulgrew or Ryan or maybe both?) and if Chakotay/Seven was planned well before Human Error & Endgame?

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Modern" Star Trek didn't have stars in the sense that one person always got the most time on screen/lines. It was an ensemble. They took turns being the star. Hell, they even gave Kim and Mayweather a couple episodes to themselves.

Jeri may have taken over, but she took time/episodes from everyone else "evenly" more so than felled Mugrew's stardom specifically.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

"Modern" Star Trek didn't have stars in the sense that one person always got the most time on screen/lines. It was an ensemble. They took turns being the star. Hell, they even gave Kim and Mayweather a couple episodes to themselves.

Mayweather?

Jeri may have taken over, but she took time/episodes from everyone else "evenly" more so than felled Mugrew's stardom specifically.

Alright. Thanks for your reply, Guy!

However, it would be interesting to ask to Brennan/Braga if 15 years later, in retrospect, they would have possibly regrets - or not at all - about Endgame, especially after they have read/listened uneven fans reactions: a virtual future which didn't correspond to expectations and an unexpected pairing/the absence of notable deaths in reality. And of course, to ask about the absence of a continuation in the form of TV movie, which could have offered to STV fans, a kind of closure for each character... .