Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[Jedman67]

When you don't have a real choice I wouldn't call it "accept", much less "consent". And when somebody abuses his power to take away any reasonable free choice from you, and thus eliminates consent... that is rape.

It's a real choice. It's a free choice. She chose one miserable choice over another miserable choice, and I don't see how that takes away her consent.

EDIT: This does not in any way condone the behavior of the sailor who took advantage for his own personal gratification. I just don't believe it meets the legal definition of rape according to US Law.
I believe Sweden has much broader definitions of rape; according to Swedish law he might be guilty of rape.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It's a real choice. It's a free choice. She chose one miserable choice over another miserable choice, and I don't see how that takes away her consent.

The power imbalance takes away that free choice. He has the power over an incredibly important aspect of her life. And he uses that to coerce her into having sex.

She can "in theory" say no. But only if she accepts incredibly horrible consequences.

Maybe "Fuck me or die" is even worse but not by much.

Real consent can only be given in a situation that doesn't involve abuse of power and an insane power imbalance.

 

[John Clark]

It's a real choice. It's a free choice. She chose one miserable choice over another miserable choice, and I don't see how that takes away her consent.

EDIT: This does not in any way condone the behavior of the sailor who took advantage for his own personal gratification. I just don't believe it meets the legal definition of rape according to US Law.
I believe Sweden has much broader definitions of rape; according to Swedish law he might be guilty of rape.

It's still coercion or blackmail, so as far as I'm concerned, consent was definitely not given.

 

[Jedman67]

The power imbalance takes away that free choice. He has the power over an incredibly important aspect of her life. And he uses her to coerce her into having sex.

She can "in theory" say no. But only if she accepts incredibly horrible consequences.

Maybe "Fuck me or die" is even worse but not by much.

This whole story is "in theory". "In theory" there should be no reason why her fiance can't get her. Or why she can't go to a different boatman. Or use a bridge. The example gives only two absolute, stark choices. Give in to a demand for sexual favors, and be reunited with her lover, or forever remain separated. I reject that there are only two choices, and I reject that agreeing out of desperation is rape.

 

[Adam]

This isn't a simple free trade. Not just "travel" for "sex".
He knows she can't refuse unless she accepts to never see her fiance again. That isn't free choice, it's power abuse.

"To never see her fiancée again" implies it is a set up within that story. It is rape.

This is not meant to minimize anything. Within that story, if that man demands a certain amount of money for his ferry services, and she can't pay the sum, she is forced to stay on this side of the waters and the story ends the way it does. Was this also an abuse of power?

Making this clear, I'm in agreement with you. Morally, though, this story is ambiguous. He doesn't force her to do anything. He also does not have to offer his services to anyone. Demanding sex as payment does seem wrong, to me at least. But is it really rape?

 

[Jedman67]

It's still coercion or blackmail, so as far as I'm concerned, consent was definitely not given.

Is blackmail considered rape though?

 

[{ Emilia }]

You can reject all you want.

A situation in which one person abuses the power they have over an important aspect of somebody else's life to coerce them into having sex is not a situation in which real consent can be assumed or given.
The power imbalance is too huge to ignore its impact on "free choice".

 

[Jedman67]

You can reject all you want.

A situation in which one person abuses the power they have over an important aspect of somebody else's life to coerce them into having sex is not a situation in which real consent can be assumed or given.

Can it be prosecuted as rape given the legal definition of such?

 

[{ Emilia }]

Is blackmail considered rape though?

"Fuck me or I'll kill you" is blackmail, too.
So is "Fuck me or your career is ruined."

At what point are going to claim the threat isn't big enough to declare it rape? Are women expected to agree to anything but certain death in order to not be forced into having sex with a guy?

 

[Jedman67]

"Fuck me or I'll kill you" is blackmail, too.
So is "Fuck me or your career is ruined."

At what point are going to claim the threat isn't big enough to declare it rape? Are women expected to agree to anything but certain death in order to not be forced into having sex with a guy?

One can't be expected to let themselves be killed if there is another way out. Career/job security is a different matter. Some will give in, some will not. Take Gretchen Carlson, who was allegedly fired from Fox News after she refused the sexual advances of Roger Ailes. She lost her job and career and eventually sued him. SHE DID NOT CONSENT. SHE WAS ABLE TO REFUSE - at great cost - but she refused.

Can't this woman...I don't know, knock out the boatman when he's not looking and get across herself? I hate this whole concept of a helpless female dependent on the good will of others but that's another thread.

Yes, Zoe from Firefly would have handed him his head.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Seems to me that instead of explaining that the reality of the situation doesn't correspond to a legal definition, we should endeavor to make the legal definition correspond to the reality of the situation.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

I take it you've never seen High Plains Drifter.

Or Revenge of the Nerds.

 

[Jedman67]

Seems to me that instead of explaining that the reality of the situation doesn't correspond to a legal definition, we should endeavor to make the legal definition correspond to the reality of the situation.

Absolutely.

 

[{ Emilia }]

One can't be expected to let themselves be killed if there is another way out. Career/job security is a different matter. Some will give in, some will not. Take Gretchen Carlson, who was allegedly fired from Fox News after she refused the sexual advances of Roger Ailes. She lost her job and career and eventually sued him. SHE DID NOT CONSENT. SHE WAS ABLE TO REFUSE - at great cost - but she refused.

And when a woman isn't strong enough to accept that great cost to her life and career when faced with this horrible situation of power imbalance and coercion... it's not rape to you?
What you're saying is: "Hey, it's just her career and future... she's still got a choice".

She doesn't.

Coercion and power imbalance = no free choice.
No free choice = no consent.
No consent = rape.

That's... just unreal. Sorry but it makes me feel sick. And I mean genuinely sick. It's upsetting.

 

[John Clark]

Is blackmail considered rape though?

If you're just blackmailing for money etc, that's a different crime but wWhere sex is concerned, certainly.

As @{Emilia} mentions, the level of threat should not come in to it. Whether it's threat of violence, humiliation or anything else, it would still come under non-consent for me (so yeah, rape)

 

[Adam]

That's why we're talking about rape culture. You know... the background that reinforces rapist beliefs.
Not saying rape culture is the only reason rapists exist obviously. But it's one important element.

No insights can be gained without reinforcing 'rape culture'?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Can't this woman...I don't know, knock out the boatman when he's not looking and get across herself? I hate this whole concept of a helpless female dependant on the good will of others but that's another thread.

The point of a thought experiment is to get people to think through their values and assessments of situations, not actually to solve a specific problem as it has been presented. The outcome of the situation isn't the point--the point is how each of us thinks through it, and what it says about our values, priorities, and ethics.

A person who thinks there is nothing wrong in coercing a woman to have sex with him, for instance, is someone I would not trust much at all.

One can't be expected to let themselves be killed if there is another way out. Career/job security is a different matter. Some will give in, some will not. Take Gretchen Carlson, who was allegedly fired from Fox News after she refused the sexual advances of Roger Ailes. She lost her job and career and eventually sued him. SHE DID NOT CONSENT. SHE WAS ABLE TO REFUSE - at great cost - but she refused.

If you are suggesting that people losing their jobs and livelihoods over refusing to capitulate to criminal sexual behavior is somehow a positive outcome, I don't know what to say.

 

[Adam]

There could be numerous reasons that drive a person to commit rape. Perhaps one of the more common, especially for college students, would be an assumption of consent where there is none. Violent rape is likely comparable to other violent crimes - assault, battery, murder. There is probably an additional aspect of psychological power over the victim. None of that excuses or justifies the inexcusable and unjustifiable.

Naturally.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Can't this woman...I don't know, knock out the boatman when he's not looking and get across herself? I hate this whole concept of a helpless female dependant on the good will of others but that's another thread.

She didn't fight enough? Really?

 

[Jedman67]

And when a woman isn't strong enough to accept that great cost to her life and career when faced with this horrible situation of power imbalance and coercion... it's not rape to you?
What you're saying is: "Hey, it's just her career and future... she's still got a choice".

That's... just unreal. Sorry but it makes me feel sick. And I mean genuinely sick. It's upsetting.

From Wikipedia, sourced from: Gaines, Larry; Miller, LeRoy (2006). Criminal Justice In Action: The Core. Thomson/Wadsworth. ISBN 0-495-00305-0.

For duress to qualify as a defense, four requirements must be met:[1]

1. The threat must be of serious bodily harm or death
2. The threatened harm must be greater than the harm caused by the crime
3. The threat must be immediate and inescapable
4. The defendant must have become involved in the situation through no fault of his own