I thought she was dead? Wasn't that the whole point of the third glass of scotch that McCoy poured in Kirk's quarters?
Where was Carol Marcus
- Thread starter mattman8907
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I'd watch that.
Chapel was a terrible terrible character and really I'm glad she was written out.
Any good things the character did in TOS (and there was quite a few) was overwhelmed by her pathetic crush on Spock.
Not pathetic that she had a crush on Spock but pathetic the way they wrote it. I cringe everytime I see Chapel on screen except in WALGMO. Write her as a kick-ass scientist who doi sn't take crap from Kirk or Spock. Otherwise let her go.
No they were toasting to Kirk's dad.
And wasn't Kirk early in the movie looking wistfully at Sulu and his child or was that Sulu and his partner? No matter.
I agree. Even in disease of the week episodes, McCoy takes the lead in the research. In TMP, she should have been head of biological sciences rather than M.D. as someone more technically minded than McCoy. She comes across as a mixture of Chapel and Number One and is the better for it.
I'm not prepared to go so far as to say there is no merit in the character, however. She might work better as a running joke, where, while McCoy is busy procrastinating how difficult something will be, she just comes up with the answer.
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Nimoy got treated differently because he was actually in the movies! Majel Barrett only voiced the computer, which makes it a little hard to mention her passing on screen. Christine Chapel was mentioned in STID and wasn't STID also dedicated to Majel Barrett? I think that's pretty much all they could do to honor her passing.
What any of this would have to do with sexism is still beyond be.
I genuinely believe this but it's part of the problem not part of the solution sadly.
As I said previously, they could have shown respect for the actor by showing respect to the character.
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You guys are all wrong, she's clearly in the movie the whole time.
The "problem" is purely subjective, and the cast was big enough as it was. Where in the story would Chapel have fit in? And had she been in the movies, you would complain that she didn't have enough screen time ... and that some old sexist bastards are to blame for that.
Sexism has both objective and subjective elements but that's a whole other debate. Chapel and Rand were reduced to little more than cameos in the TOS movies but so was Shadowcat in the first two Xmen movies. I still prefer Kitty featuring in four out of six movies instead of just two. I'm sure others do disagree though. I'd be happy with respectful cameos at this point. Same for Carol really but Eve was probably too expensive for this.
Alice Eve is not just some random background actor that you hire for two or three lines. If she had been in Beyond, she would have had a bigger role ... but that wouldn't have fit into the movie. She was in STID because she was an integral part of the story, but having her in Beyound would have been a waste of resources. As much as I liked to see her in Beyond ... there just was nothing that she could have added to that movie. It's hard enough to give the main cast enough to do in such a movie, let alone the guest cast from the previous movie.
She was having Lunch with Nurse Christine Chapel.
(Seriously, she was a minor character and perhaps didn't sign on for the 5 year mission when it came up.)Why was Chapel an off camera Nurse in ST09 and in TOS she had an elaborate backstory of research achievements and degrees and specialties, etc etc... You want the "in universe" answer or the truth? The truth is The actress was as we saw over the years herself a forceful and opinionated lady, who happened to be romantically involved with the boss. So she got to write her own characters backstory including curing cancer and defeating Hitler in order to save the planet of weiner dog puppies. It's not like anybody else in production ever read her characters backstory notes. The day to day production crew used her as McCoys Nurse.
It might be said that just doing that off screen reference was meant as a token of respect. That Chappel is on this Enterprise. Without filling or recasting the role The character is there if needed, but it also honors Barrett in a subtle way. I get what they were trying to do and think it worked.
Rand is probably more complicated. The main cast and some recurring regular supporting cast are covered as regular employees and the characters are part of the series bible that the writers use to craft stories. But sometimes a writer will create a new character for a story not from the defined show bible that sticks around a bit. When that happens the writer gets paid each time the character is used. (this is why TNG's Ensign Locarno changed to Voy's Tom Paris.) Using Rand even a new recast Rand would have triggered a payment. And why do that if you are recasting the role? It is one thing to mail a check in order to get Grace Witney to do a cameo in the TOS movies. But if you are not using Grace and don't have that nostalgic attachment why pay some long gone writer just to use the character name Rand? Surely they can rename a blonde to hand Kirk his clipboards.
Yeah there are real world obstacles to using recurring characters, part of which will be the size of the pay cheque, which are hefty for lead actors. Daniel Cudmore declined appearing in Deadpool for understandable reasons too. Stepping outside that for a moment here's how I would have done it.
SPOILERS
Rand:
ST09: Blonde woman on Pike's bridge handing him a PADD. Kirk obviously notices her and she throws him a smile. Later on, when Kirk gets out of hand with Spock, it's Rand who takes him down by catching him off guard so that Cupcake can escort him off the bridge. If you want her as ensemble then she is ordered to beam down to Delta Vega as a security escort. Spock is already at the Base working with Scotty to adjust the transporters. Kirk has to go outside to adjust the transmitter and monster based hilarity ensues. Rand remains behind to work the transporter.
STID: As Kirk's yeoman. Sent to Qo'nos as part of the security team as she has advanced training in transporter tech.
STB: As a cameo, as Kirk's yeoman and as part of the security team. As ensemble just tag her onto one of the separated teams, Kirk or Scotty seeming most appropriate. I think the movies obsess a bit too much about male bonding.
Chapel:
ST09: McCoy runs tricorder and pronounces wounded crewman as fit for duty. Says, you're Chapel from xenobiology right? She affirms. He thrusts tricorder at her and pronounces that he needs all the help he can get. On your feet Nurse Chapel. Name check later as before.
STID: Chapel gets dialogue about Khan's physiology and seems almost hypnotised by the prospect of a genetic superman as an homage to McGivers. She delivers the dialogue about the Tribbles later.
STB: Among the captive crew. Possibly some dialogue about Krall's regeneration.
Marcus:
STB: Possibly some dialogue, maybe a nominally flirty moment in the archive. Among the captive crew. She can be one who tries to talk down the ensign. Krall tries to recruit her to help fix up his weapon. She along with Uhura witnesses the effect of the weapon and accompany her later on and has some dialogue about the nature of the weapon and possible counter measures. She helps Scotty with some dialogue about the ship's power systems and weapons later.
Her mere presence would have added to the movie!
Bottom line I suppose is that actors cost money. When they made the decision early on that the women were not a significant enough part of Trek's history because they did not feature prominently in the movies, they were doomed to reboot obscurity. They use diplomatic language by saying we didn't have a role but what they mean is we couldn't think of a way to get our money's worth without putting them in their underwear.
Oh yeah, almost forgot - in each of those scenes, find a way to get them in their underwear. It only nominally has to relate to the plot :-p
Loved Kirk's line about his shirt too. :-)
EDIT: Just saw the Bourne advert and it reminded me that Joan Allen appeared in the fourth one despite her role not being integral to the plot. This was likely because she signed up for three movies and they wanted to get their money's worth as well as providing a bridge between the old and new characters but it does demonstrate that real world economics might play a significant part in these decisions.
SPOILERS
Rand:
ST09: Blonde woman on Pike's bridge handing him a PADD. Kirk obviously notices her and she throws him a smile. Later on, when Kirk gets out of hand with Spock, it's Rand who takes him down by catching him off guard so that Cupcake can escort him off the bridge. If you want her as ensemble then she is ordered to beam down to Delta Vega as a security escort. Spock is already at the Base working with Scotty to adjust the transporters. Kirk has to go outside to adjust the transmitter and monster based hilarity ensues. Rand remains behind to work the transporter.
STID: As Kirk's yeoman. Sent to Qo'nos as part of the security team as she has advanced training in transporter tech.
STB: As a cameo, as Kirk's yeoman and as part of the security team. As ensemble just tag her onto one of the separated teams, Kirk or Scotty seeming most appropriate. I think the movies obsess a bit too much about male bonding.
Chapel:
ST09: McCoy runs tricorder and pronounces wounded crewman as fit for duty. Says, you're Chapel from xenobiology right? She affirms. He thrusts tricorder at her and pronounces that he needs all the help he can get. On your feet Nurse Chapel. Name check later as before.
STID: Chapel gets dialogue about Khan's physiology and seems almost hypnotised by the prospect of a genetic superman as an homage to McGivers. She delivers the dialogue about the Tribbles later.
STB: Among the captive crew. Possibly some dialogue about Krall's regeneration.
Marcus:
STB: Possibly some dialogue, maybe a nominally flirty moment in the archive. Among the captive crew. She can be one who tries to talk down the ensign. Krall tries to recruit her to help fix up his weapon. She along with Uhura witnesses the effect of the weapon and accompany her later on and has some dialogue about the nature of the weapon and possible counter measures. She helps Scotty with some dialogue about the ship's power systems and weapons later.
Her mere presence would have added to the movie!
Bottom line I suppose is that actors cost money. When they made the decision early on that the women were not a significant enough part of Trek's history because they did not feature prominently in the movies, they were doomed to reboot obscurity. They use diplomatic language by saying we didn't have a role but what they mean is we couldn't think of a way to get our money's worth without putting them in their underwear.
Oh yeah, almost forgot - in each of those scenes, find a way to get them in their underwear. It only nominally has to relate to the plot :-p
Loved Kirk's line about his shirt too. :-)
EDIT: Just saw the Bourne advert and it reminded me that Joan Allen appeared in the fourth one despite her role not being integral to the plot. This was likely because she signed up for three movies and they wanted to get their money's worth as well as providing a bridge between the old and new characters but it does demonstrate that real world economics might play a significant part in these decisions.
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On reflection, I'm glad Carol wasn't in Beyond, as there wasn't much to her character. Like most of the female characters from TOS, there wasn't much to her beyond serving the plot. (The exceptions were lovelorn doormats or angry suffragettes.) If you introduce these characters in the new movies, and then update them by giving them actual personalities, there will be a cry of "sacrilege" from the fans. Even Uhura is suffering from this problem; despite a semi-promotion to top tier character, it's hard to say much about her other than she's "feisty".
The choices are these: a) Continue the traditional sausage fest. b) Give canonical female characters defining individual characteristics. c) Introduce new female characters who don't have the canon baggage.
(The exceptions to my above dismissal of TOS characters are Saavik and Valeris, but for some reason they haven't been reintroduced.)
The choices are these: a) Continue the traditional sausage fest. b) Give canonical female characters defining individual characteristics. c) Introduce new female characters who don't have the canon baggage.
(The exceptions to my above dismissal of TOS characters are Saavik and Valeris, but for some reason they haven't been reintroduced.)
I'm not so sure. Perhaps your analysis is too subjective? Is there really anything to Chekov beyond an accent? He bounces around fulfilling plot points to give him something to do. I do think that Uhura's dry sense of humour has suffered in the reboot but they did put more effort into this one to treat her more like an officer even if she is tangential to the action. It's more important to have enough character potential to fill the niche. Uhura is a technician. It's harder to utilise that niche well. Same for Carol and science. Much of Spock's role is now taken up with personal relationships with Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Uhura. He just has his whole alien thing on top to give it some spin.
Well, going by the old timeline, they might not be born yet. Neither Saavik or Valeris was around during Kirk's original five-year-mission. They didn't show up until the movies when the original crew was much older. Heck, Spock was on the verge of retirement when Valeris first appeared, and Zachary Quinto is not exactly an old man yet . .. .
Granted, they could fudge things in the reboot, but I'm not sure it's puzzling why they're not around yet.
As for Carol . .. well, three years have passed since the events of INTO DARKNESS.. Time enough for Kirk and Carol to go their separate ways, just like they did in the previous timeline. I wasn't really expecting to see her again and did not notice her absence. In TOS terms, she was a guest-star, not a regular.
Responding to Pauln6:
Chekov, Sulu, Scotty and Uhura are all secondary characters, basically. I define this to mean that they don't have personal arcs that are a significant part of the story. The problem is that the focal characters are still all male (all man, baby!), and Uhura is only really featured in relation to Spock.
I want this to change, but I don't know if Uhura, as she is, is capable of supporting a major arc. Kirk and Spock both have major personal issues which define how they approach life. Uhura still has basically no backstory. Did she have parents? Has she struggled to define herself? Who knows?
Chekov, Sulu, Scotty and Uhura are all secondary characters, basically. I define this to mean that they don't have personal arcs that are a significant part of the story. The problem is that the focal characters are still all male (all man, baby!), and Uhura is only really featured in relation to Spock.
I want this to change, but I don't know if Uhura, as she is, is capable of supporting a major arc. Kirk and Spock both have major personal issues which define how they approach life. Uhura still has basically no backstory. Did she have parents? Has she struggled to define herself? Who knows?
This is a very valid point. In my view, this is why Yeoman Rand could have worked as a female lead if they had moved beyond her infatuation and had written a few stories that featured her as an active protagonist. I can't see Uhura stepping up in the same way since you need to come up with plot devices to get her away from her station. Carol will most likely return with a kid in tow if at all as a plot device for Kirk. Is she came with Chapel in support, so much the better.
Jaylah on the other hand fills the same design space as Saavik (or at least the initial concept of a half romulan). A young alien with a troubled childhood rescued by starfleet, struggling to live up to its ideals. She has character and story potential. As a security guard she could get to accompany the lads on adventures too but her gain is likely to be Uhura's loss in that regard.
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