Rewatching Voyager

[Thomas Eugene]

QUOTE="Archimago, post: 11660383, member: 70543"]Is the epsiode you're referring to the one with Riley? (Dr Fraizer) if so yes! It is dealt with In the trilogy, protectors acts of contrition and atonement, which are all seperate relaunch novels but they come as a 3 parter. Riley and her people feature mainly in attonement though.[/QUOTE]
No, I didn't mean that. Like I said, I've read THE ETERNAL TIDE and Riley et al are included in that one, too. I meant to inquire whether WAKING MOMENTS is referenced in any of the novels after that.

And no I haven't read the dark matter! I'll buy them now

Good luck! I thought it was beautiful. I generally like every book by Christie Golden.
Word of warning: people liking Beyer's works often don't like Golden's novels.

You see I really like the novels I just think they summarise Voyager so well,

Aah, you see this is exactly where I seem to be at odds with the rest of the world. I feel a bit like B'Elanna - do you remember when she says in JUGGERNAUT: " I suppose it's always going to be like this ... Me against the galaxy ..."
People are so enthusiastic about the relaunch books. I'm not. I admit the stories are interesting - but to me they killed the essence of Voyager.
If some of you haven't read these books yet, here's a big SPOILER warning!!!
First off, Janeway gets killed. Bloody hell ... What kind of a concept is killing off the main character of a series? I can't imagine a more ridiculous idea than that. Can you imagine Shakespeare's Hamlet without Hamlet? Pathetic.
Then, to my relief, she is brought back. And at what price? They kill off the borg! What the f ...? (excuse my French) You destroy Star Trek's most iconic villain? Where does this come from, again? In my book one of the wackiest ideas I've ever heard ...
Not to mention the fact that books like CHILDREN OF THE STORM were completely unreadable. Beyer is obsessed with creating thousands of completely unnecessary characters who all have a rank, who all serve on different ships and whose names are a pain to remember. With CHILDREN OF THE STORM, you had to go to the back of the book like every second page to check who is who, which ship he/she is on, in what rank, etc. The whole thing was excrutiating. Worse even, CHILDREN OF THE STORM was a very good story but this constant going to the back of the book ruined it all.
Then, to make things worse, by the time you have learnt their names, this woman kills them off by the hundreds! In THE ETERNAL TIDE, the crew of four ships are lost - why did we have to go through the painful process of learning their names and ranks in the previous book when they get killed in the end anyway? I thought this was pathetic. Again, TET would have been a good story if it hadn't been ruined by that. And why kill off beloved characters like Q2 and Admiral Paris? Frustrating ...
But really, to me the worst aspect of these books is the fact that they killed what I've always thought to be the essence of Voyager: to me, this show has always been about a ship lost in space. This was what made the whole show endearing to me. This sense of being alone and not knowing if they will ever make it home made Voyager what it was supposed to be. Now, in the relaunch books with slipstream technology, it takes barely more than two hours to reach the Delta Quadrant ... My God! Janeway gone and brought back, the borg gone, it seems, forever and you can reach the DQ in less than two and a half hours? Why is this series still called VOYAGER?
Hence why I actually stopped on TET. I thought that the books had become worse and worse. I admit the stories are good but to me ... Voyger was lost. And not in the DQ but in the storytelling. End of spoilers.
I know that most people don't agree with me but this is how I feel about the relaunch series.

I didn't care for Dark Matter but its nothing to do with how good the books are. I just strongly disagreed with the author's choice in one situation. To me she had one character acting out of character and thought it would have been more reasonable for another character to take on that role. It's just a personal choice thing. I would never dissuade anyone from reading them because what the author chose to do might be perfectly ok with them...or they might not even think about it the way I did.

In which case your suggested reading to Archimago is ...?
Which character do you mean? I read it a long time ago, I hardly remember the whole thing. All I remember is that I liked it. So who do you mean? And what's your favourite VOY book?
Oh, BTW, Archimago, I have another suggestion. Have you ever read DISTANT SHORES? This is a collection of short stories taking place during their seven-year journey in the DQ. And this one, I thought, was very much in the tradition of good old Voyager:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Distant_Shores

 

[tomalak301]

Well, tonight was Hirogen Night on my Voyager rewatch, and because of time, I skipped over Retrospect so I can do the Killing Game two parter. It makes sense too because if you watch Hunters, Prey, and Killing Game all back to back, there is a pretty nice story arc in there and Retrospect kind of gets in the way of that. I'll do Retrospect tomorrow, probably.

Hunters

This was such a poignant episode. Voyager found the relay station, sent the Doctor to the Alpha Quadrant, and now they have been able to get letters home and the data stream encrypted file which will be useful last in the season. I really enjoyed this subplot because it gave the crew updates from home and it gave us the viewer the knowledge that Home is still important to the series and an update on some of the characters lives from before the ship got stranded. Kate Mulgrew, for example, gave a great performance as something heartbroken over the dear john letter from Mark. It also was a big missed opportunity that Janeway and Chakotay never got together because this scene between them was the right moment to do so. Like Chakotay said, the safety net was gone. I don't believe in Shipping (In fact, the only ship I was really a fan of in any show was John and Aeryn from Farscape), but this was the perfect chance to give the J/C shippers what they wanted. I also really liked Kim's story, as the brash young ensign who was very close to home when the series started having that impatience if he did get a letter. The guy is still young, and as Janeway said in the first season, Kim never went more than a week without seeing his parents.

The main plot with the Hirogen was decent too. I'm a fan of this alien race mainly because they were alien hunters. They were nomadic, and the ships absolutely showed that. We don't know what they were like many years ago (And another reason it's beneficial to see these four episodes in a row is because that is the development the Hirogen get) but what they turned into were hunters and the ships really represented them well.

Prey

The Hirogen arc continues and brings back Species 8472 in the process. This is the best episode of the four I saw tonight, mainly because Tony Todd is so awesome in whatever role he's in. Loved the scene with the hunt and Tony Todd faces off with Chakotay.

In terms of the Janeway/Seven angle (Which there is a thread running right now), I have to say I agree with Seven here over Janeway. Yes, Janeway is the captain, but Voyager was outmanned and outgunned. They were going to get destroyed and seeing 8472 escape didn't really give Seven any options. In fact, my favorite scene in this episode was when Seven defied Janeway in her quarters and then the end where Seven calls Janeway out on her hypocrisy about individuality. Janeway, may be the captain, but I do think she abused her authority here, mainly because Seven is still somewhat of a child in the humanities.

The Killing Game

The Hirogen Arc comes to a thrilling respite (There is one two parter left after this) with The Killing Game. I remember when I first saw this episode, I became a whole lot more fascinated with WWII. In fact, I didn't see Patterns of Force, so this was my first Trek episode featuring the WWII troupe and to anyone who complains that Trek used it too much, for one, at the time there was only one episode that used WWII as a backdrop and two, did you complain when Saving Private Ryan came out, or any other dozens of WWII movies came out in the 90s? Anyway, back to this episode, it was fun, even though I like the first part more than the second. I loved seeing the crew in the WWII persona, and man does Jeri Ryan have an awesome singing voice. This was the Seven I wanted to see more of as the series went on. It's a shame they never really came to that.

In terms of Part 2, this was what I was referring too regarding the development of the Hirogen when I was talking about Hunters. We see a guy in the main hunter (Do these guys have names?) who wants to preserve the Hirogen race and used the holodecks as a ways to a mean to see if it was fiesable. The action scenes that followed were fun, even though I know the ship will look perfectly fine in the next episode. This is where I wish the ship damage would have stayed for a few episodes. It's hard to repair one big holodeck afterall. Overall, it's not my favorite two parter, but it is still pretty decent.

 

[stardream]

t.

Good luck! I thought it was beautiful. I generally like every book by Christie Golden.
Word of warning: people liking Beyer's works often don't like Golden's novels.


Aah, you see this is exactly where I seem to be at odds with the rest of the world. I feel a bit like B'Elanna - do you remember when she says in JUGGERNAUT: " I suppose it's always going to be like this ... Me against the galaxy ..."
People are so enthusiastic about the relaunch books. I'm not. I admit the stories are interesting - but to me they killed the essence of Voyager.
If some of you haven't read these books yet, here's a big SPOILER warning!!!
First off, Janeway gets killed. Bloody hell ... What kind of a concept is killing off the main character of a series? I can't imagine a more ridiculous idea than that. Can you imagine Shakespeare's Hamlet without Hamlet? Pathetic.
Then, to my relief, she is brought back. And at what price? They kill off the borg! What the f ...? (excuse my French) You destroy Star Trek's most iconic villain? Where does this come from, again? In my book one of the wackiest ideas I've ever heard ...
Not to mention the fact that books like CHILDREN OF THE STORM were completely unreadable. Beyer is obsessed with creating thousands of completely unnecessary characters who all have a rank, who all serve on different ships and whose names are a pain to remember. With CHILDREN OF THE STORM, you had to go to the back of the book like every second page to check who is who, which ship he/she is on, in what rank, etc. The whole thing was excrutiating. Worse even, CHILDREN OF THE STORM was a very good story but this constant going to the back of the book ruined it all.
Then, to make things worse, by the time you have learnt their names, this woman kills them off by the hundreds! In THE ETERNAL TIDE, the crew of four ships are lost - why did we have to go through the painful process of learning their names and ranks in the previous book when they get killed in the end anyway? I thought this was pathetic. Again, TET would have been a good story if it hadn't been ruined by that. And why kill off beloved characters like Q2 and Admiral Paris? Frustrating ...
But really, to me the worst aspect of these books is the fact that they killed what I've always thought to be the essence of Voyager: to me, this show has always been about a ship lost in space. This was what made the whole show endearing to me. This sense of being alone and not knowing if they will ever make it home made Voyager what it was supposed to be. Now, in the relaunch books with slipstream technology, it takes barely more than two hours to reach the Delta Quadrant ... My God! Janeway gone and brought back, the borg gone, it seems, forever and you can reach the DQ in less than two and a half hours? Why is this series still called VOYAGER?
Hence why I actually stopped on TET. I thought that the books had become worse and worse. I admit the stories are good but to me ... Voyger was lost. And not in the DQ but in the storytelling. End of spoilers.
I know that most people don't agree with me but this is how I feel about the relaunch series.

In which case your suggested reading to Archimago is ...?
Which character do you mean? I read it a long time ago, I hardly remember the whole thing. All I remember is that I liked it. So who do you mean? And what's your favourite VOY book?
Oh, BTW, Archimago, I have another suggestion. Have you ever read DISTANT SHORES? This is a collection of short stories taking place during their seven-year journey in the DQ. And this one, I thought, was very much in the tradition of good old Voyager:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Distant_Shores

I think what you probably prefer are the stand alone stories. The ones where the crew has an adventure but everything is returned to as it was before the story began and that has it's appeal. A lot of the Original Series books are still like that and I enjoy them. Nothing wrong with that.

I like some of Golden's Novels. The Murdered Sun and Marooned are very good. I didn't care for the Spirit Walk books but I think that was down to bad editing. There were good stories in there but someone on high needed to help her organize them a bit better and it just did not happen. They just sort of...flounder.

Dark Matter-let's just say I would have liked it a LOT better had Chakotay and Tom switched places. I thought Tom was out of character in that book. I did not enjoy what she did with him.

The Killing of Janeway happened in the TNG novel Before Dishonor. To this day I don't think anyone knows why Peter David did that but it is up to the reader to interpret if she really dies or not. Minor spoiler...Q is involved so that means anything is possible or anything can happen.

As far as I'm concerned the Destiny Trilogy is one of my favorite series of books ever. I read them at least once a year. It's just so sweeping and epic. Once again someone 'on high' made the decision that the Borg needed to be taken care of once and for all. Apparently, they decided we knew too much about them, they were no longer scary and not much of a threat anymore. I think they way they dealt with them was...very unexpected. The Destiny Trilogy combines all of the series (although most of Voyager's side of the story is told in the book Full Circle).

With the relaunch books, the whole of the Trek Universe is finally united. There is a large overreaching story that goes back and forth through all the franchises. Voyager's is a little separate as they are in the Delta Quadrant but they are still connected. They have a good reason to be back there but they are no longer lost. Think of it as if Voyager had an eighth TV season after they returned home.

I do agree with you about Children of the Storm. It's not an easy read but it continues a storyline that began in the Destiny Trilogy.

 

[Archimago]

QUOTE="Archimago, post: 11660383, member: 70543"]Is the epsiode you're referring to the one with Riley? (Dr Fraizer) if so yes! It is dealt with In the trilogy, protectors acts of contrition and atonement, which are all seperate relaunch novels but they come as a 3 parter. Riley and her people feature mainly in attonement though.

No, I didn't mean that. Like I said, I've read THE ETERNAL TIDE and Riley et al are included in that one, too. I meant to inquire whether WAKING MOMENTS is referenced in any of the novels after that.

Good luck! I thought it was beautiful. I generally like every book by Christie Golden.
Word of warning: people liking Beyer's works often don't like Golden's novels.


Aah, you see this is exactly where I seem to be at odds with the rest of the world. I feel a bit like B'Elanna - do you remember when she says in JUGGERNAUT: " I suppose it's always going to be like this ... Me against the galaxy ..."
People are so enthusiastic about the relaunch books. I'm not. I admit the stories are interesting - but to me they killed the essence of Voyager.
If some of you haven't read these books yet, here's a big SPOILER warning!!!
First off, Janeway gets killed. Bloody hell ... What kind of a concept is killing off the main character of a series? I can't imagine a more ridiculous idea than that. Can you imagine Shakespeare's Hamlet without Hamlet? Pathetic.
Then, to my relief, she is brought back. And at what price? They kill off the borg! What the f ...? (excuse my French) You destroy Star Trek's most iconic villain? Where does this come from, again? In my book one of the wackiest ideas I've ever heard ...
Not to mention the fact that books like CHILDREN OF THE STORM were completely unreadable. Beyer is obsessed with creating thousands of completely unnecessary characters who all have a rank, who all serve on different ships and whose names are a pain to remember. With CHILDREN OF THE STORM, you had to go to the back of the book like every second page to check who is who, which ship he/she is on, in what rank, etc. The whole thing was excrutiating. Worse even, CHILDREN OF THE STORM was a very good story but this constant going to the back of the book ruined it all.
Then, to make things worse, by the time you have learnt their names, this woman kills them off by the hundreds! In THE ETERNAL TIDE, the crew of four ships are lost - why did we have to go through the painful process of learning their names and ranks in the previous book when they get killed in the end anyway? I thought this was pathetic. Again, TET would have been a good story if it hadn't been ruined by that. And why kill off beloved characters like Q2 and Admiral Paris? Frustrating ...
But really, to me the worst aspect of these books is the fact that they killed what I've always thought to be the essence of Voyager: to me, this show has always been about a ship lost in space. This was what made the whole show endearing to me. This sense of being alone and not knowing if they will ever make it home made Voyager what it was supposed to be. Now, in the relaunch books with slipstream technology, it takes barely more than two hours to reach the Delta Quadrant ... My God! Janeway gone and brought back, the borg gone, it seems, forever and you can reach the DQ in less than two and a half hours? Why is this series still called VOYAGER?
Hence why I actually stopped on TET. I thought that the books had become worse and worse. I admit the stories are good but to me ... Voyger was lost. And not in the DQ but in the storytelling. End of spoilers.
I know that most people don't agree with me but this is how I feel about the relaunch series.

In which case your suggested reading to Archimago is ...?
Which character do you mean? I read it a long time ago, I hardly remember the whole thing. All I remember is that I liked it. So who do you mean? And what's your favourite VOY book?
Oh, BTW, Archimago, I have another suggestion. Have you ever read DISTANT SHORES? This is a collection of short stories taking place during their seven-year journey in the DQ. And this one, I thought, was very much in the tradition of good old Voyager:
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Distant_Shores[/QUOTE]


Much to respond to here, ok here goes. Firstly sorry you know how I mix up epsiode names. And I don't think so hover they may be one of the alien species trying to attack the confederation, but if they were they were not important at all.

And I've read some goldeen the spirt walk novels, they were really good I love her writing about the relationships between chracter but I prefer Beyer style of writing sorry to say here is where we disagree haha.

Firstly the choice to kill Janeway was inretesting and offered deep insight into the mind of chakotay and set up an absolute mega epic book about the omega continum. Agreed it took away the family feel kind of, but I agree with her choice otherwise the full circle fleet wouldn't have launched, and many other things wouldn't have happened. I can see where this point could be argued from both sides of the table, it was contraverisal and a bold choice to make I think.

How iconic are the borg? That's the question, when does something lose its "pezzaz" you know what I mean? The borg swept complete destruction of the federation where else did could they have gone. I feel like your love for Voyager may be binding you to some of the characters but I feel for this many novels to be effective there has to be loss (I mean 63 million people died we must know some if them). And often these chracters deaths play a vital role in the story like Admiral Paris' forcing the legal case making tom be back home.

The point I agree with you on is the names, it was very difficult to remember every persons names, and even know I forget them haha and I'm like who da fuq is rhat again oh right the gamma shift science officer xD it does get easier the more you read tho as lots of ships are killed and you become more familiar with the chracters.

The thing I really like is the bring back of often forgetting chracters like sam wild man who made a key appreance in attonement. I also love commander O'Donnell he is a new chracter but man he is good!

You're right there are faults, and sometimes it has lost the feel of Voyager, but it csnt be that ship that's lost forever I think it has to make progress. I love the stories and I think she has done a great job

And most importantly whatever happens they're still family.

 

[Archimago]

Sorry I just realised how long that post was and it sounds really agressive I dont mean it like that at all! I just think we have very differencing opinions on the books

 

[Thomas Eugene]

I think what you probably prefer are the stand alone stories.

Absolutely not.
Story arcs are lovely. I just prefer story arcs with VOYAGER - a ship lost in space without the ability to make it home in two hours. The very fact alone that home is so close killed the whole thing for me.
I love story arcs with VOYAGER - one ship, not an armada of ships. Again, the fact that Voyager is being escorted through space by several other ships took away the mystery of Voyager for me.
So if it's a stand-alone book or not - it's all the same to me. What I like is the atmosphere of the TV show. The relaunch books are very different.

I didn't care for the Spirit Walk books but I think that was down to bad editing.

What was wrong with the editing? The SPIRIT WALK books are not my fav read, either, but I found them OK. Again, my problem with them was that Golden already started this "let's tear the Voyager family apart" thing. It was a long time ago I read those books but as far as I remember it was only Chakotay and Harry who remained aboard Voyager. Kudos to Beyer for bringing them back together.
Still, those two books were at least about Voyager, not about an armada of ships. At that time, I was kind of hoping that the Voyager I like would be recreated. You can imagine my disappointment when Peter David killed off Janeway. Then Beyer went along with the idea ... and like I said, after that I felt the books, even though the stories were interesting, just started to lose their "voyagerness" (if such a word exists at all).

I thought Tom was out of character in that book. I did not enjoy what she did with him.

Like I said, I don't remember any more what the story was about. But I remember very well that Tom and Chakotay were particularly good in my book (no pun intended). I remember how I liked that storyline with them - as far as I can recall, they were in an alternate reality or something.

To this day I don't think anyone knows why Peter David did that

Oh yes, it is a well-known fact that it was NOT his idea. Some of TPTB decided that Janeway should be killed off - he just followed orders, like a good-natured Starfleet officer (of course, good-natured Starfleet officers don't want earn money - Peter David most probably did).
The fact that Janeway was killed off was bad enough. The fact that TPTB decided not to do this in her own series was even worse. I mean, the main character gets killed off, and if you don't read TNG you just kind of accidentally learn that from the VOY books? What kind of sh .. is this? (Excuse my French, again). I think this was again the wackiest idea I've ever heard.

As far as I'm concerned the Destiny Trilogy is one of my favorite series of books ever.

I don't know that trilogy but from the way you describe it, I guess it's NOT Voyager. Am I right?

With the relaunch books, the whole of the Trek Universe is finally united.

This is probably good news for all the Star Trek fans. However, since I'm not one of them - I only like VOY, the other shows bore me (I can watch DS9 to a certain extent, but I also find it watchable at best, whereas everything else makes me fall asleep, esp ENT) -, so this is good news for Trek fans but for me this is a completely neutral piece of information.

Think of it as if Voyager had an eighth TV season after they returned home.

It's easy to think of it as that. However, no matter how I think of it, it's not Voyager for me any more - for the reasons stated above. Even with the TV series, I would have preferred them to have stayed in the Delta Quadrant, not making home. Then the books could still continue their stories and the feel of the books could still be similar to that of the show.
I remember seeing ENDGAME for the first time. My gut reaction was: OMG, I can't believe that Janeway, who I had always held in high esteem, did what she did - and the whole thing just because of Seven of Nine, really.
But my second reaction, which was as immediate as the first one was: they are home - how are they going to continue the story in the books? By now, it has turned out how. I understand that most people love these books and again, kudos to TPTB for creating a universe that is apparently appealing to a wider readership than perhaps the show itself.
But not to me. Like I said, Voyager for me was about a ship lost in space. The realunch books are different; they are to me about a ship that was lost in the writing.

I prefer Beyer style of writing sorry to say here is where we disagree haha

As long as we keep our discussions civilized, there's no problem with that.

Firstly the choice to kill Janeway was inretesting and offered deep insight into the mind of chakotay and set up an absolute mega epic book about the omega continum.

Like I said ... I've never critized these books for not being interesting enough. I don't like the way the whole Voyager story has been developed. I'm sure that if we had a different kind of VOY story arc - something that would be a lot more reminiscent of the good old VOY show -, the relaunch books could still be interesting. Perhaps even Kirsten Beyer could write them - there's nothing wrong with her style.

The borg swept complete destruction of the federation where else did could they have gone.

True. But then who says in the first place that the complete destruction of the Federation at the hands of the borg was necessary? This was one of the worst ideas for me, which inevitably led to the ruination of the borg.
I think it's difficult to dispute that the borg are iconic - they practically appear in all Star Trek shows (I don't know about TOS) and VOY and TNG are "borg-heavy" shows. Although I don't know the other Trek shows very well, I don't think any other villains figure as heavily as the borg - which is, I guess, a sure way of saying that they are the most iconic villain in the world of Star Trek. To me, killing them off was serious mistake. Just like killing off Janeway. She was brought back - are they gonna resort to the fairly cheap trick of bringing the borg back as well, I wonder ...

I feel like your love for Voyager may be binding you to some of the characters

True. Actually to ALL the characters of VOY.

You're right there are faults, and sometimes it has lost the feel of Voyager, but it csnt be that ship that's lost forever I think it has to make progress. I love the stories and I think she has done a great job

That's why I said I might be the only one who thinks differently. Oh well ... there's no need to be in agreement about absolutely everything all the time. The rest of the world loves these books - I don't like them that much, and I think both I and the rest of the world will survive this difference of opinion ...

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Hey, tomalak,
Sorry, I wanted to say a few things about the Hirogen but my time was taken up by reacting to the relaunch books - and now I must dash. So at the moment, all I'm going to say is that I love the Hirogen, they are my very favourite villain in the world of Star Trek, I love all the episodes with them (including TSUNKATSE).
And now, since I'm in a hurry, here are a few THE KILLING GAME wallpapers, which is a lovely episode and Janeway's finest costume apart from her Starfleet uniform:

 

[tomalak301]

^Nice pictures

I've started watching a Netflix series, which is only 8 episodes, so to catch a breath, these are the last two episodes I will write about for the next few days.

Retrospect

This is a pretty good episode, and a pretty good show for Seven. I think it was a good commentary on rape and assault, and how quick we are the judge despite not knowing all the facts. I will say though it seemed like Janeway went a little easy on the Doctor at the end there. In Prey she comes down on Seven for saving the ship. Here, the Doctor goaded Koven into his death for the most part and Janeway says we all make mistakes. I probably would have said no we don't want him to go back to when he was when he was deactivated, but maybe taking out the psychological subroutines would have beeen in order.

Vis á Vis

This episode was a little dull. I liked what it did for Paris's relationship with B'Elanna but it felt like I've seen this type of episode before and nothing new was brought to the Table. I will say it was better than DS9's The Passenger.

By the way, you guys can continue to talk about the Voyager relaunch, but I haven't read any of it and I might one day, so I've been just skimming past it. Part of that too is the reason why I'm probably going to slow down on this thread this week.

Also, the series I'm watching is the Netflix new series "Stranger Things" and it's pretty good so far.

 

[Archimago]

Absolutely not.
Story arcs are lovely. I just prefer story arcs with VOYAGER - a ship lost in space without the ability to make it home in two hours. The very fact alone that home is so close killed the whole thing for me.
I love story arcs with VOYAGER - one ship, not an armada of ships. Again, the fact that Voyager is being escorted through space by several other ships took away the mystery of Voyager for me.
So if it's a stand-alone book or not - it's all the same to me. What I like is the atmosphere of the TV show. The relaunch books are very different.

What was wrong with the editing? The SPIRIT WALK books are not my fav read, either, but I found them OK. Again, my problem with them was that Golden already started this "let's tear the Voyager family apart" thing. It was a long time ago I read those books but as far as I remember it was only Chakotay and Harry who remained aboard Voyager. Kudos to Beyer for bringing them back together.
Still, those two books were at least about Voyager, not about an armada of ships. At that time, I was kind of hoping that the Voyager I like would be recreated. You can imagine my disappointment when Peter David killed off Janeway. Then Beyer went along with the idea ... and like I said, after that I felt the books, even though the stories were interesting, just started to lose their "voyagerness" (if such a word exists at all).

Like I said, I don't remember any more what the story was about. But I remember very well that Tom and Chakotay were particularly good in my book (no pun intended). I remember how I liked that storyline with them - as far as I can recall, they were in an alternate reality or something.

Oh yes, it is a well-known fact that it was NOT his idea. Some of TPTB decided that Janeway should be killed off - he just followed orders, like a good-natured Starfleet officer (of course, good-natured Starfleet officers don't want earn money - Peter David most probably did).
The fact that Janeway was killed off was bad enough. The fact that TPTB decided not to do this in her own series was even worse. I mean, the main character gets killed off, and if you don't read TNG you just kind of accidentally learn that from the VOY books? What kind of sh .. is this? (Excuse my French, again). I think this was again the wackiest idea I've ever heard.

I don't know that trilogy but from the way you describe it, I guess it's NOT Voyager. Am I right?

This is probably good news for all the Star Trek fans. However, since I'm not one of them - I only like VOY, the other shows bore me (I can watch DS9 to a certain extent, but I also find it watchable at best, whereas everything else makes me fall asleep, esp ENT) -, so this is good news for Trek fans but for me this is a completely neutral piece of information.

It's easy to think of it as that. However, no matter how I think of it, it's not Voyager for me any more - for the reasons stated above. Even with the TV series, I would have preferred them to have stayed in the Delta Quadrant, not making home. Then the books could still continue their stories and the feel of the books could still be similar to that of the show.
I remember seeing ENDGAME for the first time. My gut reaction was: OMG, I can't believe that Janeway, who I had always held in high esteem, did what she did - and the whole thing just because of Seven of Nine, really.
But my second reaction, which was as immediate as the first one was: they are home - how are they going to continue the story in the books? By now, it has turned out how. I understand that most people love these books and again, kudos to TPTB for creating a universe that is apparently appealing to a wider readership than perhaps the show itself.
But not to me. Like I said, Voyager for me was about a ship lost in space. The realunch books are different; they are to me about a ship that was lost in the writing.

As long as we keep our discussions civilized, there's no problem with that.

Like I said ... I've never critized these books for not being interesting enough. I don't like the way the whole Voyager story has been developed. I'm sure that if we had a different kind of VOY story arc - something that would be a lot more reminiscent of the good old VOY show -, the relaunch books could still be interesting. Perhaps even Kirsten Beyer could write them - there's nothing wrong with her style.

True. But then who says in the first place that the complete destruction of the Federation at the hands of the borg was necessary? This was one of the worst ideas for me, which inevitably led to the ruination of the borg.
I think it's difficult to dispute that the borg are iconic - they practically appear in all Star Trek shows (I don't know about TOS) and VOY and TNG are "borg-heavy" shows. Although I don't know the other Trek shows very well, I don't think any other villains figure as heavily as the borg - which is, I guess, a sure way of saying that they are the most iconic villain in the world of Star Trek. To me, killing them off was serious mistake. Just like killing off Janeway. She was brought back - are they gonna resort to the fairly cheap trick of bringing the borg back as well, I wonder ...

True. Actually to ALL the characters of VOY.

That's why I said I might be the only one who thinks differently. Oh well ... there's no need to be in agreement about absolutely everything all the time. The rest of the
world loves these books - I don't like them that much, and I think both I and the rest of the world will survive this difference of opinion ...

HahA I just think it's always gonna be you vs the world on this one xD I respect your opinions tho, and it's perfectly reasonable thst you don't like them.

 

[stardream]

HahA I just think it's always gonna be you vs the world on this one xD I respect your opinions tho, and it's perfectly reasonable thst you don't like them.

I agree. I've been on the other side of a discussion when everyone else loved a certain thing and I didn't...and the other way around too.

One last thing about Dark Matters. I did like the bit where Tom and Chakotay were in the alternate place...it was the fact Golden had Tom involved with an alien woman. If you read the numbered Voyager series books that happens over and over again. Even another one of my favorite authors Greg Cox, did this in the otherwise excellent The Black Shore. I got really tired of it but I put up with it when Tom was single but these books were set he was with B'Elanna. The one line where Tom said the one thing he couldn't resist was 'temptation' made me so angry I was ready to throw the book up against the wall. I just wish she had Chakotay in that role instead and it would have made a bit more sense character wise as Chakotay would have been more interested in her story and her culture. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. (No Tom didn't cheat on B'Elanna. I just didn't like that Golden went 'there' after so many authors before her did the same thing.)

Now back to the re-watch.

During the time Retrospect was written 'false memories' was a thing in the US. Therapists were convincing patients they had buried bad memories and were convincing them certain events had happened that, in reality, had not. People were issuing public accusations and then had to retract them as a result of, in their words, 'bad therapy.' It's one of those dated issues and the premise sort of got lost over time so now it does come across as a purely a rape/assault story which is understandable.

I read a good explanation for Tom's behavior in Vis a Vis which was he had been under tight control and restriction the majority of his life, starting with his father to the Academy to Starfleet to prison. It was simmering in the back of his mind and during a 'quiet time' on the journey it finally started to boil over. He didn't know what was happening and didn't know how to deal with it so he reacted inappropriately. I've seen this sort of thing happen in my real life. My husband grew up in a military family and then went to strict private schools, and then did a stint in the military. When he had his first taste of 'freedom' he didn't know what to do with it. Fortunately, he didn't go off the rails too badly. He's not the only person I've known to have experienced this.
I liked that explanation and it's part of my headcanon now.

 

[Archimago]

I must say retrospect tells a deep lesson about the saying the 'the boy who cried wolf ' a simple child's tale that relates to this. I simply find it hard to like this epsiode Becuase rape and assult are some of the most under reported crimes this is often because women and men are scared to come forward Becuase people will think they are lying or seeking attention. This epsiode perfectly highlighted an example of that, and I think does not send a good message to people, who want to speak out about what's happening to them. I know not a normal view on a trek episode sorry xD

 

[stardream]

I must say retrospect tells a deep lesson about the saying the 'the boy who cried wolf ' a simple child's tale that relates to this. I simply find it hard to like this episode Becuase rape and assault are some of the most under reported crimes this is often because women and men are scared to come forward Becuase people will think they are lying or seeking attention. This episode perfectly highlighted an example of that, and I think does not send a good message to people, who want to speak out about what's happening to them. I know not a normal view on a trek episode sorry xD

Did you read my post above? It was written about false memory syndrome, not about false accusations. There is a difference. False accusation would be if Seven deliberately and willingly made an accusation of assault knowing full well it was a lie. The difference is she honestly believed her memory to be a true one and acted on it. It was a controversial thing here in the States around the time this episode was aired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome

 

[tomalak301]

I read a good explanation for Tom's behavior in Vis a Vis which was he had been under tight control and restriction the majority of his life, starting with his father to the Academy to Starfleet to prison. It was simmering in the back of his mind and during a 'quiet time' on the journey it finally started to boil over.

So can we say the same thing about Janeway in Night, which is something I've always had an issue with. Maybe it's those quiet meditative moments that make people more vulnerable. One of the issues I had with this episode was Tom's behavior, especially towards B'elanna, despite an episode earlier in the season having them sneak around just to be together.

 

[stardream]

So can we say the same thing about Janeway in Night, which is something I've always had an issue with. Maybe it's those quiet meditative moments that make people more vulnerable. One of the issues I had with this episode was Tom's behavior, especially towards B'elanna, despite an episode earlier in the season having them sneak around just to be together.

I suppose one way of looking at it might be is the idea that Janeway probably made a good 'wartime' Captain. Good in a crisis but maybe had difficulty with being a 'peace time' Captain. In Night she 'came back to life' when it appeared the ship was under threat.

Later on in Season 5 we'll see B'Elanna pull away from Tom in Extreme Risk even though she loved him because she had deeper issues going on. In keeping with my headcanon, I think it might be a similar thing in Vis a Vis. Tom had deeper issues going on and didn't know how to deal with them.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

^Nice pictures

Thanks.

Retrospect

This is a pretty good episode, and a pretty good show for Seven. I think it was a good commentary on rape and assault, and how quick we are the judge despite not knowing all the facts. I will say though it seemed like Janeway went a little easy on the Doctor at the end there. In Prey she comes down on Seven for saving the ship. Here, the Doctor goaded Koven into his death for the most part and Janeway says we all make mistakes. I probably would have said no we don't want him to go back to when he was when he was deactivated, but maybe taking out the psychological subroutines would have beeen in order.

To me, this was one of the weaker episodes. I'm not sure what the producers wanted with this. Perhaps to show that even a borg drone might make a mistake, which is a positive proof that she is not as perfect any more as she used to be?
Or was their aim to show that aggressive behaviour could lead to being physically hurt if you are aggressive with the wrong person?
In any case, this is one of Voyager's less likeable episodes for me. It's not that I don't like it, of course, but to me this was the weakest episode in an otherwise strong season.

Vis á Vis

This episode was a little dull. I liked what it did for Paris's relationship with B'Elanna but it felt like I've seen this type of episode before and nothing new was brought to the Table. I will say it was better than DS9's The Passenger.

Well, this episode is about Tommyboy so understandably, I'm a bit biased. At the same time, I must say that I think Voyager attaches too much importance to how much Tom is "in love with" machines, rather than with flesh and blood people so yeah, I consider this to be a bit repetitive. At the same time, I love this episode, there are memorable scenes in it like the very first one with the Doctor sounding the car horn or the conversation between Tom and Seven. And of course, Tom's closing scene with B'elanna is spot-on:

TORRES: It's a lovely garage, Tom, but I still don't understand why you brought me here.
PARIS: Well, consider it a symbolic gesture. It's my less than subtle attempt to let you in.
TORRES: I see. To make it clear that I mean almost as much to you as a, a cam-a-ro.
PARIS: It's a mint condition 1969 Camaro. And yes, you mean a lot more to me.

(Can someone explain what "mint condition" in the above sentence means? Thanks.)

I just love how this guy can woo his love. This is probably the tenth time ever since tomalak started this thread that I've mentioned this but I've never seen any other characters in any other tv shows whose lines are as beautiful as Tom's when he is being nice to someone he loves (love is meant here in the romantic sense but I could include love in any sense, really). Whoever came up with his lines must have been a romantic person with a little mischief in his or her character ... A combination I find hard to resist in a man ...

By the way, you guys can continue to talk about the Voyager relaunch, but I haven't read any of it and I might one day, so I've been just skimming past it. Part of that too is the reason why I'm probably going to slow down on this thread this week.

It's nice to know that we are allowed to discuss anything re VOY on this thread. This is a very friendly thread compared to most of other (VOY-bashing) threads, in no small part thanks to our friendly administrator. And no, I'm not flattering you, tomalak, you come across as a friendly person (especially a Voyager-friendly person, which is always a big plus in my book ) and so do the other few who visit this thread regularly.

HahA I just think it's always gonna be you vs the world on this one xD I respect your opinions tho, and it's perfectly reasonable thst you don't like them.

I agree. I've been on the other side of a discussion when everyone else loved a certain thing and I didn't...and the other way around too.

Thanks, guys, you are both very understanding. A rare quality on these fora. Most people try to force their opinions on you and they don't respect that you might think differently.
I've never understood that. Just because I like Tom, e.g., and perhaps someone doesn't, why can't we just leave it at that? It's that simple. Especially if there are a lot of other things that we both like about a show. Why argue? I've noticed I don't really get on well with people on the fora who lay special emphasis on things like how many bioneural gel packs are mentioned in a specific episode and if so, why a different number of gel packs is mentioned five episodes later - and stuff like that. I'm not saying that Voyager hasn't got its faults but I don't think that these things matter so much and frankly there are a lot more TV shows which are a lot less consistent than VOY. If one does nothing else but analyze all the minor details that are perhaps controversial, one takes away the joy that the shows are meant to bring. JMO, of course.
Luckily, you who come to this tread seem to focus on the more important aspects of the show - like human relationships -, which I find is a good thing.

On a somewhat different note, I'd like to add that I don't think the realunch books are terrible at all. They just don't live up to my expectations, esp. because they are entitled VOYAGER. This is the disappointing bit about them for me. But otherwise, the stories make interesting reads and I'm planning to continue with PROTECTORS (some time in the not too distant future - Charles Dickens's BLEAK HOUSE is the next book in line).

One last thing about Dark Matters. I did like the bit where Tom and Chakotay were in the alternate place...it was the fact Golden had Tom involved with an alien woman. If you read the numbered Voyager series books that happens over and over again. Even another one of my favorite authors Greg Cox, did this in the otherwise excellent The Black Shore. I got really tired of it but I put up with it when Tom was single but these books were set he was with B'Elanna. The one line where Tom said the one thing he couldn't resist was 'temptation' made me so angry I was ready to throw the book up against the wall. I just wish she had Chakotay in that role instead and it would have made a bit more sense character wise as Chakotay would have been more interested in her story and her culture. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. (No Tom didn't cheat on B'Elanna. I just didn't like that Golden went 'there' after so many authors before her did the same thing.)

I'm afraid I don't recall that but even if I did, this kind of thing wouldn't bother me so much. Partly because I have hardly read any books in the numbered series. I think I read the first two or three after CARETAKER, I found them boring so I gave up on the whole series. Perhaps it's time to reconsider?

So can we say the same thing about Janeway in Night, which is something I've always had an issue with

I can't wait to read about that because I actually found this one of the more intriguing parts of NIGHT - but like I said we don't always have to agree.

And since I don't have any more episode-related wallpapers to offer in the near future (the next one is, I think, about ONCE UPON A TIME), here is one from the beginning of the show - of course, of who else if not of galaxy's best-looking flyboy?

 

[Archimago]

Yeah I post elsewhere occasionally but this is the only thread I continually look at xD everyone is nice

 

[tomalak301]

It's nice to know that we are allowed to discuss anything re VOY on this thread. This is a very friendly thread compared to most of other (VOY-bashing) threads, in no small part thanks to our friendly administrator. And no, I'm not flattering you, tomalak, you come across as a friendly person (especially a Voyager-friendly person, which is always a big plus in my book ) and so do the other few who visit this thread regularly.

Yeah you are, but this is still my thread. I've been happy with people actually talking to me back about this, because I did a Star Trek thread earlier this year and that one was very quiet. It's my hope that this year for the 50th anniversary, I will be done with Star Trek, TAS, and Voyager (Watched TNG when the Blu Rays came out) and maybe next year finally give DS9 a proper rewatch. Still, I picked Voyager because I'm starting to get into the seasons I haven't seen in ages, which is Season 5-7. There are episodes I'm looking forward to seeing again, like Gravity because of Lori Petty (Orange is the New Black), Memorial, One Small Step, 11:59, Critical Care, Friendship One, and Blink of an Eye.

I just decided to slow things down because it felt like I was on a binge, even though I'm trying to finish at least Season 4 maybe this week. I go to Las Vegas in 2 weeks, so I wanted to get far into Voyager by then.

 

[Archimago]

Did you read my post above? It was written about false memory syndrome, not about false accusations. There is a difference. False accusation would be if Seven deliberately and willingly made an accusation of assault knowing full well it was a lie. The difference is she honestly believed her memory to be a true one and acted on it. It was a controversial thing here in the States around the time this episode was aired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome

Sorry I didn't see this bit when I was catching up it fits perfectly! Wierd that the doctor used that dream technique even though he should've known it presented false memories. Thanks for highlighting this for me though!

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Yeah I post elsewhere occasionally but this is the only thread I continually look at xD everyone is nice

Good to hear it. What does xD mean in English?

There are episodes I'm looking forward to seeing again, like Gravity because of Lori Petty (Orange is the New Black), Memorial, One Small Step, 11:59, Critical Care, Friendship One, and Blink of an Eye.

Apart from me, you might be the only person who actually likes 11:59. That episode gets bashed all the time.

I just decided to slow things down because it felt like I was on a binge, even though I'm trying to finish at least Season 4 maybe this week. I go to Las Vegas in 2 weeks, so I wanted to get far into Voyager by then.

Fantastic! In about two weeks' time I'm also taking a break and won't be able to come here for approx. two weeks.
Here's a wallpaper for all of you for today (I hope we haven't had this one on this thread yet):

 

[tomalak301]

Apart from me, you might be the only person who actually likes 11:59. That episode gets bashed all the time.

I love it mainly for Nostalgic reasons. It was close to the new Mellinium and I remember where was when this episode aired. I found it very poignant for the time, kind of the fear of the new Mellinium and Y2K. God 16 years later that feels so simplistic now.

Anyway, two more episodes and I might watch a third tonight but I will start with the second episode first:

Unforgettable

This episode is boring. There isn't much to say about it other than I do love Virgina Madsen. I just wish she was a more gripping character.

The Omega Directive

I know Voyager gets criticized for ruining the Borg, but here in late season 4, they haven't done it yet. In fact, they added a dimensionality to the Borg which I really liked, and it's a big reason why I think this is one of the most underrated episodes of the series. They added a religion element. You always hear the Borg say "We will add you biological and technological distinctiveness to your own" and in season 4, episodes like Scorpion and this one explore that phrase. The Borg are trying to be perfect and achieving perfection is almost like living eternal life. I love that aspect of this episode, and I wish it was explored slightly further even though we got some really nice stuff with Seven and Chakotay and then Seven and Janeway at the end.

As for the rest of the episode, it was great, but is it me or does the Omega Directive feel a little selfish from Starfleets point. I mean you are captain of a ship and a crew. The crew serves under you and there has to be an aura of trust between the two. This Directive kind of breaks that trust doesn't it? Why is it that the crew can be trusted not to divulge secrets to alien species (Unless your name is Michael Jonas) but they can't be trusted with a Molecule? I get this is Star Trek's weapon of mass destruction, but I would rather face it as a crew, than go at it alone.

Still, this is really a great episode of Voyager and allowed the ship to have a mission put on by Starfleet Command.