Is Quark a Pimp?

[Spot261]

It's not different at all, the point is not whether the porn is illegal or not, the point is the porn portrays an act which is illegal and the evidence shows that people searching out that porn are far more likely to commit the offence. Far from acting as a release mechanism - at the very least it correlates with carrying out the act. I haven't claimed it is either a cause or a gateway, on that score I frankly have no idea and thus can't comment, merely an indicator.

The same logic could just as easily apply to any harmful sexual crime, actively seeking out media portraying that act would indicate a propensity to commit it. There is no reason to presuppose rape porn (or in this case holoporn) would be different. Someone who seeks it out has already gone beyond the point of having fleeting thoughts and despite Timo's insistence there really is strong evidence to correlate that step with actually committing the offence.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

All the studies that have tried to find a correlation between video game violence and real life violence have failed to find any.

However, I think child porn is an exception. For child porn to exist, that child's rights must already be violated. If you possess child porn, it already proves you have a compulsion you can not or choose not to control.

Fantasies that do not require any actual person to be violated or harmed to indulge in are different because you do not need to cross any real world moral boundaries.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

All the studies that have tried to find a correlation between video game violence and real life violence have failed to find any.

However, I think child porn is an exception. For child porn to exist, that child's rights must already be violated. If you possess child porn, it already proves you have a compulsion you can not or choose not to control.

Fantasies that do not require any actual person to be violated or harmed to indulge in are different because you do not need to cross any real world moral boundaries.

Not quite. Studies show that violent video games exacerbate violent tendencies among those who already show problems with violence. They do not show that other people who play those games are made violent by them.

 

[Spot261]

All the studies that have tried to find a correlation between video game violence and real life violence have failed to find any.

However, I think child porn is an exception. For child porn to exist, that child's rights must already be violated. If you possess child porn, it already proves you have a compulsion you can not or choose not to control.

Fantasies that do not require any actual person to be violated or harmed to indulge in are different because you do not need to cross any real world moral boundaries.

completely agree with you, the fact of seeking out that porn is itself a step beyond fantasy and into behaviour which is, put as delicately as I can, self rewarding. In the context of the question being addressed the fact of that behaviour is to my mind a perfectly legitimate piece of information for law enforcement to make use of when profiling suspects

 

[at Quark's]

All the studies that have tried to find a correlation between video game violence and real life violence have failed to find any.

However, I think child porn is an exception. For child porn to exist, that child's rights must already be violated. If you possess child porn, it already proves you have a compulsion you can not or choose not to control.

Fantasies that do not require any actual person to be violated or harmed to indulge in are different because you do not need to cross any real world moral boundaries.

completely agree with you, the fact of seeking out that porn is itself a step beyond fantasy and into behaviour which is, put as delicately as I can, self rewarding. In the context of the question being addressed the fact of that behaviour is to my mind a perfectly legitimate piece of information for law enforcement to make use of when profiling suspects

But if we follow that line of reasoning, it would also mean that at the moment purely virtual child porn would be sought out -(or, simulated on the holodeck)-, (i.e. in which no child was actually abused), it would no longer necessarily be an indicator of 'crossing that real world moral boundary', -as repugnant as we may find such behaviour-, right ?

 

[Spot261]

In the sense I'm putting across yes it would. I take your point but even though no child had actually been hurt, the individual would still have actively sought out an outlet for that impulse that could be noted by law enforcement. The fact of the porn being virtual would mitigate an awful lot of the moral case against such a product being available but using it would still be a behaviour indicative of likely offending.

 

[at Quark's]

So, let me get this straight.

Playing violent video games is not a good indicator of violent behavior -- studies only show (taking bad thought's statement at face value here) that for a minority of gamers that would have had problems with violence anyway, games may exacerbate the problems.

But, if purely virtual child porn existed as an outlet, it would in itself still be an indicator of likely offending ?

Why, exactly ?

There might be a difference as large here as between the 'average' player of violent games, and people who can only get their kicks out of recordings of actual violence (e.g. snuff movies, and such.) I wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong correlation between the latter group and problematic behaviour.

 

[Spot261]

Because studies DO show a link between child porn and offending.

There's no reason to assume CGI porn would be different.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

So, let me get this straight.

Playing violent video games is not a good indicator of violent behavior -- studies only show (taking bad thought's statement at face value here) that for a minority of gamers that would have had problems with violence anyway, games may exacerbate the problems.

But, if purely virtual child porn existed as an outlet, it would in itself still be an indicator of likely offending ?

Why, exactly ?

There might be a difference as large here as between the 'average' player of violent games, and people who can only get their kicks out of recordings of actual violence (e.g. snuff movies, and such.) I wouldn't be surprised if there was a strong correlation between the latter group and problematic behaviour.

I think the problem is that you cannot extrapolate from violence in video games to child pornographer. Both would need to be studied separately. Regular adult pornographer might be closer (and the links between and misogyny have been largely confirmed), but even so, they are separate phenomena. Moreover, child pornography, from what I have read, is extremely difficult to study because it is so underground. Because of the illegality and the depths to which is hidden, anyone seeking child pornography probably should be suspected. But what about adults role playing as minors? Indeed, what about the men who turn girls into "Lolitas" in mainstream films?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The question about purely virtual child porn is difficult to answer. It all depends whether the psychological condition that makes somebody interested in children is inherently intertwined with the need to dominate other people. Whether, given the opportunity to direct it completely toward people who don't exist, it would be enough for them. Since in the real world there does not exist this opportunity we don't have the evidence. Maybe a criminal pathologist could better answer that question.

 

[Spot261]

The nearest thing I'm aware of to that is this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24818769

which was a project wherein a simulated child was used by investigators to help snare people attempting to groom kids online. Obviously a rather different kettle of fish to the suggestion made of having simulated porn as a legitimate outlet.

However, given the lack of evidence for a cathartic effect for genuine porn, why would one expect one from a simulation? As I keep pointing out this whole "get it out of the system" model just doesn't fit with the evidence. On the other hand, however, might be that those who seek out the "real deal" and those who are prepared to accept an overt substitute may be different in some manner? Might the desire to see actual harm being done fuel one and not the other?

For me though, the takehome message really is that those who look at these things are far more likely to also do them and are therefore of legitimate interest to authorities profiling suspects for abuse cases. Providing online simulations would be of far more value if done covertly as an investigative tool than overtly as a legitimised outlet.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Child porn is illegal and immoral because it creates a victim. In the future, there may be ways to create child porn without victimizing children. However, one can fairly arguing that any pedophile is mentally ill and should not be allowed (legally) or tolerated (morally) to satisfy their desires, whether or not a real living person is hurt. I doubt Quark would allow illegal or immoral sexual activity in his holosuites, not because he's a beacon of morality, but because he's eager to avoid punishment. Punishment is personally shaming and, more importantly, bad for business.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

One wonders what kind of programs Grathon Tolar wrote.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

However, given the lack of evidence for a cathartic effect for genuine porn, why would one expect one from a simulation? As I keep pointing out this whole "get it out of the system" model just doesn't fit with the evidence.

The difference is, the use of a holodeck for sexual release is, at least theoretically, indistinguishable from real sex. That allows the user to get sexual urges out of their system in a way that we can't match, simply because just sitting around watching porn isn't anywhere near the same level of actually having sex.

In Trek's time, the simple fact that people have holodecks available to accurately simulate any kind of sex they want, with absolutely zero consequences, is what makes it a viable method to release urges and tension. And why the governments of the Federation should not risk violating people's privacy, and the integrity of the mind (i.e. interfering in one's personal fantasies), because nothing that happens in a holodeck is a crime, and restricting what programs people are allowed to use in a holodeck is probably not going to curb any actual crimes committed outside of one.

 

[Spot261]

On the other hand use of a holodeck clearly doesn't remove the need to seek out the real thing. Characters still have relationships where they (presumably) express themselves sexually.

If it can't fully meet more conventional needs, why would it meet criminal ones?

I'm not suggesting they'd necessarily prevent it, but they'd be foolish to ignore it

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Of course there's the real thing - the holodeck is for those who are unlucky at finding it.

Technology may make some things easier, but romance and companionship will never be.

 

[Spot261]

Good point, although it remains a point of horror and shock to many just how many sex offenders actually see their crimes in those terms, they find their own version of "romance and companionship" from their offences. Equally many simply enjoy the fact of causing genuine harm and distress, something which no simulation could give them.

You make a good observation of the fundamental differences between online porn (the effects of which we have data on) and the much more immersive environment of the holodeck (which we don't). Fundamentally though no matter how convincing the simulation, the user is still well aware of the distinction. The question would be whether that awareness would alter the real world implications. My suspicion is that for many the very fact of reality would be too tempting, precisely because it is reality.

 

[Worf99]

There's a lot wink-wink-nod-nod going on over the holodecks and the dabo girls. Is Quark pimpin'?

Why would he need to pimp dabo girls out when there are holosuites.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Why would he need to pimp dabo girls out when there are holosuites.

Because the customer might be attracted to a particular dabo girl and if she's cool w making a few extra slips of gold pressed latinum, then what's the harm?

 

[Jedi_Master]

I think it would depend on Bajoran law. I would assume that Quark would not be a "pimp" (with the exploitation and abuse that implies) in any case, but at most he would be a facilitator between sex workers and their prospective clients, giving them a safe space in which to work and taking a small fee for his services.