In episode 5 of Engage: The Official Star Trek Podcast, CBS's Vice President for Product Development, John Van Citters, sat down with host Jordan Hoffman for an extended interview about the new fan film guidelines. Mr. Van Citters is in charge of Star Trek licensing, and was a major force behind the development of the guidelines. The interview ran a good bit over an hour.
This seems like a significant enough chapter in the Fan Film Guidelines saga to warrant its own thread.
I partially transcribed the interview. This was a very rushed transcript, and I am sure there are inaccuracies. I also omitted large sections. I am not a fast typist, so I tried to focus on the really important stuff. In particular, there's almost no transcription for the first 15 minutes. (The first 15 minutes are spent establishing Mr. Van Citters' bona fides as a Trekkie.) Hopefully, though, it will be enough for people who can't spare an hour-plus to listen to the full interview to get involved in the conversation about what it all means.
--BEGIN PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT--
HOST: Why now? What's the impetus?
JVC: We've seen an explosion of fan films in recent years and we know that these come from a place of very deep love for Star Trek and the technological advances that have happened in the last 10, 15 years have enabled fans to tell their stories with more ease and more detail and do some really amazing things. And for many years we've used a very simply guideline in cooperation on this, which is, a Star Trek fan film is a fan creation that's non-commercial. Well, we thought that this was simple enough and that it helped fan filmmakers understand the separation that we need to keep between professional content and fan films, it's becoming increasingly clear that not everyone has understood where that line is. Between non-commercial and our professional efforts, and we decided to issue a set of guidelines that should help give some shape to this and standardize our approach and the approach that fans can take to non-commercial fan-generated content. Now, I've seen some muttering online about this, that the guidelines are you know intended to end fan films. That's NOT the case AT ALL. They're not intended to end fan films. But with the explosion of crowdfunding, abuses have very definitely crept into the process. For many, it became more about the item you were donating to get than supporting the production for its own sake. The productions started spiraling larger and larger; there's something of an arms race about how many hollywood names could be attached, how many people who previously worked on Trek, how many famous actors could you involve. And that's not really in the spirit of fan fiction, not the fan fiction that I grew up with and which many people grew up with, which was more of a...
HOST: Would you even say it created a barrier of entry to people who wanted to...
JVC: I've *spoken* to some people including some people that have been involved peripherally in fan films that it has created a bit of a barrier of entry to some people because it has, There's Star Trek fans all over the world, and they don't necessarily have the ability to access Hollywood actors and people, even meet people who have worked on Trek unless they are able to travel to one of the larger conventions. So, for a lot of people, they were like, I won't be able to get this actor and that actor, I can't get these people to tell my story, I don't know if I should bother, because I just can't compete at the level that these guys are playing at. And that's unfortunate because regardless of what someone else is doing I think it would be great for fans to show their passion, whatever it is.
[JVC refers to costume contest and Ratattouie's "Anybody can cook."]
I think the Guidelines that we have will make it easier for more people to enter, will make it easier for more people to COMPLETE films with the shorter length that's involved, and we won't see things spiralling off into the direction of 'How many cool ships, or T-shirts, or whatever can I get for donating?" instead of donating just because this person has a GREAT idea for a film and I want to see that story on screen.
...
Fan films that are currently out there will not be retroactively shut down/scrubbed. "Absolutely not" says JVC. "Anything that is already out there will remain out there."
...
QUESTION: regarding a show that has been "being worked on for 20 years and he remastered some of it and was just about to put it up on YouTube." [Editor's Note: This presumably refers to YORKTOWN: A TIME TO HEAL, which is the only show that's been in production that long.]
JVC: "Guidelines are meant for films on a going-forward basis. If this is a film that has already been in existence before... that's not an issue for us."
"We're not reviewing your script, we're not reviewing your ideas, we're not reviewing your casting, we're not reviewing your creativity. If you are done with your film and you feel it fits within the guidelines and you're happy with where it's at... by all means, get it out to your public... We're not looking to micromanage what you do."
"If they do it great, they may hear from us to say, hey, that was awesome."
[So I interpret this as a very deliberate green light for YORKTOWN. But that's just my interpretation.]
...
THE BIGGER SHOWS? [Editor's Note: Huge swaths of this interview discuss New Voyages and Continues without naming them; they are referred to as "bigger shows." Which, fair enough, is how we all refer to them, too.]
JVC has been directly in contact with "several of the bigger shows".
"We do treat every use of our IP on a case-by-case basis... we have been in contact with different fan film groups over the years as well as recently. I've had in the past week a couple of groups have reached out to me looking for clarification and hopefully some of what I'm doing today will be able to answer that."
...
ABOUT RENEGADES:
Over the weekend, I saw reports that Star Trek Renegades had opted to switch course from what they're doing... and try and sort of spin off into their own unique and original IP. That's great. I encourage fans to express their love of Star Trek by creating their own worlds, that's a beautiful thing to do... and ultimately much easier for them!
...
HOST: Another question that I got which I think the answer's pretty straightforward is somebody saying, "Well, we're recording a long-form radio play. Does that count as fan film?" And I think the answer's no, right?
JVC: No. Audio dramas definitely do not qualify under this. These are fan film guidelines.
HOST: But this does include animation... anything visual. I think there was some confusion about that.
JVC: Yes. If it's a visual representation of Star Trek that way that would qualify as a film. Animation, computer animation, et cetera.
HOST: There was somebody else who asked, 15 minutes for the film - does that include the credits?
JVC: [chuckles]
HOST: And my -- tell me if the answer's right -- the answer's YES but NO...
JVC: These are guidelines. They are intended to be something that gives structure and lets people know the limits they can operate within where they know they're not going to get a knock on the door... well, we don't go house-to-house anyway... they're not going to hear from us. They're not going to get a phone call, they're not going to get an email, tehy're not going to get anything that is going to ruin their day one way or another or make them feel bad or like they've done anything wrong. They're guidelines. We're not going to be able to provide the level of feedback that's like, you know, "I've got this really great scene, but if I include this scene or this one really cool shot I don't want to cut anything else from, it's going to be fifteen minutes and thirty seconds; what do I do?" Um that's up to you and you know your creative decisions. We're NOT looking to get into that. We're not approving any material, we don't want to get involved in your script choices, your costume choices...
What we're asking for here, honestly, is we're asking for a level of cooperation from fandom themselves. We have or I have a responsibility every day with what comes across my desk to look at it and make sure that it properly respects Star Trek. That it properly pays tribute to Star Trek. That it properly represents what people love about Star Trek. And we feel very much that that is what fans need to do with these films. That is a responsibility that we all share in, and, as long as you're representing Star Trek appropriately and you're doing it within these guidelines, there's no issues whatsoever.
...
ON THE FUNDRAISING LIMIT
We're specifically talking about crowdfunding campaigns. If you've got rich Uncle Alfred who wants to throw two hundred thousand dollars at you, we're not looking at that. Where we've seen problems creep in is with large large crowdfunding campaigns with a great deal of rewards involved in it to the point where people are donating the money because they're going to get a cool piece of merchandise rather than because they want to support a really cool fan project.
...
and also I feel strongly that $50,000 when you're talking about 15 minutes should be able to go fairly far. All of this, you know, is definitely a conversation. We hope that we hope very much that this helps kind of settle things with Star Trek fan films, that it provides some clarity for everyone, and that we can see what's working and what's not working and we can follow up accordingly with that. We're not issuing these as, you know, fan film "laws"; these are fan film guidelines and we want people very much to operate within these and respect both us and Star Trek as a whole. $50,000 over 15 min when people have been used to seeing $80,000 for a 45-minute episode, or $100,000 or $150,000 to create something much longer, $50,000 for 15 minutes should go pretty far. We've seen some astonishing creativity for even less money than this from fan groups. I think this gives a target. I know for Star Wars for anything I believe in their contest rules don't provide any guidance on money and for anything unofficial they've said that crowdfunding is forbidden. We are specifically allowing $50,000 of crowdfunding.
...
QUESTION: Does the fundraising limit apply to the entire two-part 30-minute work combined, or to each individual 15-minute segment?
"$50,000 is available per 15 minutes."
...
THE PROPS RULE:
[This section transcribed by @ThankYouGeneR ]
Q: What about costumes, props, weapons, and things of that nature that one of the guidelines state that if it is available through our licensees licensors then use that one.
Mr. van Citters: This is definitely an area of big misconception
Q: Avonos makes some incredible costumes but if somebody wants to make some of their own, what do they do?
Mr. van Citters: They make their own!
Avonos is a terrific example because this is a company that was started by a couple of fans who did not yet even have an operating business, who did not yet have a license from anybody else, who came to us with a presentation and a plan, and some samples of the quality of work that they felt they could do. And they have created a business out of that. We looked at it and we were like, Yes, let's try this. They came out of fan ranks and they have spent over the years being a licensee tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars at this point on development for their products.
They make exceptionally good quality that looks screen accurate, that wears well, that is nicely tailored, and you've seen this stuff at conventions. It looks amazing. So out of support for Star Trek we would 'ask' people that if you are doing a fan film that you not purchase stuff from unlicensed bootleg operators who do not help support official Star Trek and create a climate where we can get more Star Trek. So, we're 'asking' that if we have stuff commercially available that you 'consider' using that on your projects. We do have great quality stuff available from vendors like Avonos, from QMX, etc. And we would like you to respect that and support their investment into Star Trek and dedication to Star Trek.
Many times their materials are gonna be a perfect fit and a great an accurate shortcut for you... but we're not looking to inhibit fan creativity, we're not looking to limit what you can do on your episode, like 'Well, they don't have an officially licensed Original Series silver lame environmental suit so whadda I do? I guess I have to cut that from my story.'
Nope. What you have to do then is get somebody that is really talented and can make one. And that's fine. We're not looking to inhibit that, we're not looking to get rid of the DIY ethic of Star Trek fans. We're 'hoping' that because you made a good one you don't turn around and say "Hey, I'll go into business doing that".
When I was a ten, eleven year old kid and I'd see a Star Trek episode with a really cool thing in it then I'd be digging through everything in the house, and go 'Ah here's an old wrapping paper tube. If I take that and this coat hanger and cut out this piece of cardboard and spray paint it silver can I 'make' this thing that I saw on the episode?' And I get that. That's part of the fun of Star Trek that you were talking about the costuming that you see at these conventions. You have people showing up as the Crystalline Entity and that's amazing and that's wonderful and please please, keep that part of Star Trek going. We're not trying to inhibit that.
If there is the 'opportunity' to use official merchandise we would 'ask' that the fans help support the franchise that they love so much.
-COMMERCIAL BREAK-
This seems like a significant enough chapter in the Fan Film Guidelines saga to warrant its own thread.
I partially transcribed the interview. This was a very rushed transcript, and I am sure there are inaccuracies. I also omitted large sections. I am not a fast typist, so I tried to focus on the really important stuff. In particular, there's almost no transcription for the first 15 minutes. (The first 15 minutes are spent establishing Mr. Van Citters' bona fides as a Trekkie.) Hopefully, though, it will be enough for people who can't spare an hour-plus to listen to the full interview to get involved in the conversation about what it all means.
--BEGIN PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT--
HOST: Why now? What's the impetus?
JVC: We've seen an explosion of fan films in recent years and we know that these come from a place of very deep love for Star Trek and the technological advances that have happened in the last 10, 15 years have enabled fans to tell their stories with more ease and more detail and do some really amazing things. And for many years we've used a very simply guideline in cooperation on this, which is, a Star Trek fan film is a fan creation that's non-commercial. Well, we thought that this was simple enough and that it helped fan filmmakers understand the separation that we need to keep between professional content and fan films, it's becoming increasingly clear that not everyone has understood where that line is. Between non-commercial and our professional efforts, and we decided to issue a set of guidelines that should help give some shape to this and standardize our approach and the approach that fans can take to non-commercial fan-generated content. Now, I've seen some muttering online about this, that the guidelines are you know intended to end fan films. That's NOT the case AT ALL. They're not intended to end fan films. But with the explosion of crowdfunding, abuses have very definitely crept into the process. For many, it became more about the item you were donating to get than supporting the production for its own sake. The productions started spiraling larger and larger; there's something of an arms race about how many hollywood names could be attached, how many people who previously worked on Trek, how many famous actors could you involve. And that's not really in the spirit of fan fiction, not the fan fiction that I grew up with and which many people grew up with, which was more of a...
HOST: Would you even say it created a barrier of entry to people who wanted to...
JVC: I've *spoken* to some people including some people that have been involved peripherally in fan films that it has created a bit of a barrier of entry to some people because it has, There's Star Trek fans all over the world, and they don't necessarily have the ability to access Hollywood actors and people, even meet people who have worked on Trek unless they are able to travel to one of the larger conventions. So, for a lot of people, they were like, I won't be able to get this actor and that actor, I can't get these people to tell my story, I don't know if I should bother, because I just can't compete at the level that these guys are playing at. And that's unfortunate because regardless of what someone else is doing I think it would be great for fans to show their passion, whatever it is.
[JVC refers to costume contest and Ratattouie's "Anybody can cook."]
I think the Guidelines that we have will make it easier for more people to enter, will make it easier for more people to COMPLETE films with the shorter length that's involved, and we won't see things spiralling off into the direction of 'How many cool ships, or T-shirts, or whatever can I get for donating?" instead of donating just because this person has a GREAT idea for a film and I want to see that story on screen.
...
Fan films that are currently out there will not be retroactively shut down/scrubbed. "Absolutely not" says JVC. "Anything that is already out there will remain out there."
...
QUESTION: regarding a show that has been "being worked on for 20 years and he remastered some of it and was just about to put it up on YouTube." [Editor's Note: This presumably refers to YORKTOWN: A TIME TO HEAL, which is the only show that's been in production that long.]
JVC: "Guidelines are meant for films on a going-forward basis. If this is a film that has already been in existence before... that's not an issue for us."
"We're not reviewing your script, we're not reviewing your ideas, we're not reviewing your casting, we're not reviewing your creativity. If you are done with your film and you feel it fits within the guidelines and you're happy with where it's at... by all means, get it out to your public... We're not looking to micromanage what you do."
"If they do it great, they may hear from us to say, hey, that was awesome."
[So I interpret this as a very deliberate green light for YORKTOWN. But that's just my interpretation.]
...
THE BIGGER SHOWS? [Editor's Note: Huge swaths of this interview discuss New Voyages and Continues without naming them; they are referred to as "bigger shows." Which, fair enough, is how we all refer to them, too.]
JVC has been directly in contact with "several of the bigger shows".
"We do treat every use of our IP on a case-by-case basis... we have been in contact with different fan film groups over the years as well as recently. I've had in the past week a couple of groups have reached out to me looking for clarification and hopefully some of what I'm doing today will be able to answer that."
...
ABOUT RENEGADES:
Over the weekend, I saw reports that Star Trek Renegades had opted to switch course from what they're doing... and try and sort of spin off into their own unique and original IP. That's great. I encourage fans to express their love of Star Trek by creating their own worlds, that's a beautiful thing to do... and ultimately much easier for them!
...
HOST: Another question that I got which I think the answer's pretty straightforward is somebody saying, "Well, we're recording a long-form radio play. Does that count as fan film?" And I think the answer's no, right?
JVC: No. Audio dramas definitely do not qualify under this. These are fan film guidelines.
HOST: But this does include animation... anything visual. I think there was some confusion about that.
JVC: Yes. If it's a visual representation of Star Trek that way that would qualify as a film. Animation, computer animation, et cetera.
HOST: There was somebody else who asked, 15 minutes for the film - does that include the credits?
JVC: [chuckles]
HOST: And my -- tell me if the answer's right -- the answer's YES but NO...
JVC: These are guidelines. They are intended to be something that gives structure and lets people know the limits they can operate within where they know they're not going to get a knock on the door... well, we don't go house-to-house anyway... they're not going to hear from us. They're not going to get a phone call, they're not going to get an email, tehy're not going to get anything that is going to ruin their day one way or another or make them feel bad or like they've done anything wrong. They're guidelines. We're not going to be able to provide the level of feedback that's like, you know, "I've got this really great scene, but if I include this scene or this one really cool shot I don't want to cut anything else from, it's going to be fifteen minutes and thirty seconds; what do I do?" Um that's up to you and you know your creative decisions. We're NOT looking to get into that. We're not approving any material, we don't want to get involved in your script choices, your costume choices...
What we're asking for here, honestly, is we're asking for a level of cooperation from fandom themselves. We have or I have a responsibility every day with what comes across my desk to look at it and make sure that it properly respects Star Trek. That it properly pays tribute to Star Trek. That it properly represents what people love about Star Trek. And we feel very much that that is what fans need to do with these films. That is a responsibility that we all share in, and, as long as you're representing Star Trek appropriately and you're doing it within these guidelines, there's no issues whatsoever.
...
ON THE FUNDRAISING LIMIT
We're specifically talking about crowdfunding campaigns. If you've got rich Uncle Alfred who wants to throw two hundred thousand dollars at you, we're not looking at that. Where we've seen problems creep in is with large large crowdfunding campaigns with a great deal of rewards involved in it to the point where people are donating the money because they're going to get a cool piece of merchandise rather than because they want to support a really cool fan project.
...
and also I feel strongly that $50,000 when you're talking about 15 minutes should be able to go fairly far. All of this, you know, is definitely a conversation. We hope that we hope very much that this helps kind of settle things with Star Trek fan films, that it provides some clarity for everyone, and that we can see what's working and what's not working and we can follow up accordingly with that. We're not issuing these as, you know, fan film "laws"; these are fan film guidelines and we want people very much to operate within these and respect both us and Star Trek as a whole. $50,000 over 15 min when people have been used to seeing $80,000 for a 45-minute episode, or $100,000 or $150,000 to create something much longer, $50,000 for 15 minutes should go pretty far. We've seen some astonishing creativity for even less money than this from fan groups. I think this gives a target. I know for Star Wars for anything I believe in their contest rules don't provide any guidance on money and for anything unofficial they've said that crowdfunding is forbidden. We are specifically allowing $50,000 of crowdfunding.
...
QUESTION: Does the fundraising limit apply to the entire two-part 30-minute work combined, or to each individual 15-minute segment?
"$50,000 is available per 15 minutes."
...
THE PROPS RULE:
[This section transcribed by @ThankYouGeneR ]
Q: What about costumes, props, weapons, and things of that nature that one of the guidelines state that if it is available through our licensees licensors then use that one.
Mr. van Citters: This is definitely an area of big misconception
Q: Avonos makes some incredible costumes but if somebody wants to make some of their own, what do they do?
Mr. van Citters: They make their own!
Avonos is a terrific example because this is a company that was started by a couple of fans who did not yet even have an operating business, who did not yet have a license from anybody else, who came to us with a presentation and a plan, and some samples of the quality of work that they felt they could do. And they have created a business out of that. We looked at it and we were like, Yes, let's try this. They came out of fan ranks and they have spent over the years being a licensee tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars at this point on development for their products.
They make exceptionally good quality that looks screen accurate, that wears well, that is nicely tailored, and you've seen this stuff at conventions. It looks amazing. So out of support for Star Trek we would 'ask' people that if you are doing a fan film that you not purchase stuff from unlicensed bootleg operators who do not help support official Star Trek and create a climate where we can get more Star Trek. So, we're 'asking' that if we have stuff commercially available that you 'consider' using that on your projects. We do have great quality stuff available from vendors like Avonos, from QMX, etc. And we would like you to respect that and support their investment into Star Trek and dedication to Star Trek.
Many times their materials are gonna be a perfect fit and a great an accurate shortcut for you... but we're not looking to inhibit fan creativity, we're not looking to limit what you can do on your episode, like 'Well, they don't have an officially licensed Original Series silver lame environmental suit so whadda I do? I guess I have to cut that from my story.'
Nope. What you have to do then is get somebody that is really talented and can make one. And that's fine. We're not looking to inhibit that, we're not looking to get rid of the DIY ethic of Star Trek fans. We're 'hoping' that because you made a good one you don't turn around and say "Hey, I'll go into business doing that".
When I was a ten, eleven year old kid and I'd see a Star Trek episode with a really cool thing in it then I'd be digging through everything in the house, and go 'Ah here's an old wrapping paper tube. If I take that and this coat hanger and cut out this piece of cardboard and spray paint it silver can I 'make' this thing that I saw on the episode?' And I get that. That's part of the fun of Star Trek that you were talking about the costuming that you see at these conventions. You have people showing up as the Crystalline Entity and that's amazing and that's wonderful and please please, keep that part of Star Trek going. We're not trying to inhibit that.
If there is the 'opportunity' to use official merchandise we would 'ask' that the fans help support the franchise that they love so much.
-COMMERCIAL BREAK-
Last edited:
