DC Comics: Rebirth

[kirk55555]

The general response, based the the reviews I've read, have been positive. 5's take as usual, is his own take on the series and also as usual mostly wrong. Barbara isn't a teenager or 21. She's doing post grad work ( possibly post doc, I don't recall exactly) at college and by the end of the series has started a tech company. So not quite "college" stuff.

She's drawn as a 15 year old in every book, from her own all the way to Gail Simone's recently ended New 52 Secret Six. That's what I meant by 15/16 and 21 (she has to be 21, or else her first issue being about her recovering from a hangover wouldn't have been done). She was definitely de-aged from Gail Simone's New 52 Batgirl run. The whole character devolved from Oracle when the New 52 started, and then Burnside devolved her more, made her more generically "hip and modern", and added a hack writer.

Oh, and for the record? I like pre-Oracle Barbara Gordon. I do consider Oracle to be the peak of the character, but I've enjoyed the older Barbara as Batgirl stuff that I read.

It makes perfect sense, she is named after a bird and has a sound based power. It doesn't just make sense, it's pretty fucking obvious.

Well then, by that logic I can't wait until Marvel makes Siryn a singer. Because if they have sonic powers and a name that kind of sounds like it could be a singer's name, then the character is a singer. Even if it doesn't remotely fit the character as they have been presented for decades. Heck, Banshee also had sonic powers, it can be a father/daughter duo. There is also the psychotic Shriek, another Marvel character but a villain this time. I'm sure a writer like the New 52 BC writer could change the character and make her "fit" into a superhero band with Siryn and Banshee. While its kind of cheating, Songbird can manipulate sound and used to have a sonic scream, so I'm sure she can get a part in the band, and her name has "Song" in it. Just add Venus from the Agents of Atlas and a new band is born (they even mostly have names that sound like singer names), even if its hilariously nonsensical for the characters.

For DC, they've actually forgotten that they can fill "Black Canary"'s band with more pre-established characters. We can't leave out Silver Banshee or the Secret Six's Jeanette. They're actual banshee's, but I'm sure they can use their powers safely if they're in a band.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She's drawn as a 15 year old in every book, from her own all the way to Gail Simone's recently ended New 52 Secret Six. That's what I meant by 15/16 and 21 (she has to be 21, or else her first issue being about her recovering from a hangover wouldn't have been done).

15? Nah. Just not drawn as a generic female character. Funny story about age perception. I was looking at a photo of some friends I had in College. We were mostly in our early twenties, but in looking at that picture I would have guess we were teenagers if I didn't know better.

Well then, by that logic I can't wait until Marvel makes Siryn a singer. Because if they have sonic powers and a name that kind of sounds like it could be a singer's name, then the character is a singer.

Our argument is being a singer is not "idiotic" or "stupid" for a character with sonic power, not that they have to be one. You ,know not beyond the realm of reason. Oh and for the record "Black Canary" was the name of the band. Dinah's stage name was "D D".

For DC, they've actually forgotten that they can fill "Black Canary"'s band with more pre-established characters. We can't leave out Silver Banshee or the Secret Six's Jeanette. They're actual banshee's, but I'm sure they can use their powers safely if they're in a band.

Too late Dinah's left the band. But you'd know that if you bothered to do the most basic of research instead of relying ignorance and empty insults.
Dinah was the lead singer, no need for two more. But they could put Roy Harper on drums and Mal Duncan on horns. Jim Rook could play guitar.

 

[JD]

She's drawn as a 15 year old in every book, from her own all the way to Gail Simone's recently ended New 52 Secret Six. That's what I meant by 15/16 and 21 (she has to be 21, or else her first issue being about her recovering from a hangover wouldn't have been done). She was definitely de-aged from Gail Simone's New 52 Batgirl run. The whole character devolved from Oracle when the New 52 started, and then Burnside devolved her more, made her more generically "hip and modern", and added a hack writer.

She was? I though by the time she was crippled she was already an adult. Pretty much every image I've seen of the character she's looked like she was at least in 20s. Wasn't she also involved with Nightwing, who was also pretty clearly an adult? Was he pedophile then at that point, or at least guilty of statutory rape? I know there was that whole thing with Hal Jordan, so I guess this isn't totally out of the realm of possibility.
What's so bad about making her "hip and modern"? It seems like making a 20something character "hip and modern" is another obvious choice. Not to mention that doing that is a good way to bring more attention to a character, and to draw in people who like "hip and modern" stuff. I like hip and modern stuff, and the bit and pieces I've heard about the Batgirl of Burnside stuff sounds good. They can't always leave all of the characters exactly the way they've been, sometimes they need to make changes to keep them relevant, and to keep them from getting stale. Making changes like they have to Barbara in the Burnside era, or turing Dinah into a singer, or Jane Foster into Thor, is a good way to open up interesting new story possibilities. Sure, they don't always work out, but it's better to continue to try different things than to just tell the same kind of stories for 50 or 70 years.
While we're talking about Batgirl of Burnside, what was it that happened with the transgender character that pissed so many people off there? All I ever saw was a panel where Barbara was shocked that the character was a guy.

Oh, and for the record? I like pre-Oracle Barbara Gordon. I do consider Oracle to be the peak of the character, but I've enjoyed the older Barbara as Batgirl stuff that I read.



Well then, by that logic I can't wait until Marvel makes Siryn a singer. Because if they have sonic powers and a name that kind of sounds like it could be a singer's name, then the character is a singer. Even if it doesn't remotely fit the character as they have been presented for decades. Heck, Banshee also had sonic powers, it can be a father/daughter duo. There is also the psychotic Shriek, another Marvel character but a villain this time. I'm sure a writer like the New 52 BC writer could change the character and make her "fit" into a superhero band with Siryn and Banshee. While its kind of cheating, Songbird can manipulate sound and used to have a sonic scream, so I'm sure she can get a part in the band, and her name has "Song" in it. Just add Venus from the Agents of Atlas and a new band is born (they even mostly have names that sound like singer names), even if its hilariously nonsensical for the characters.

For DC, they've actually forgotten that they can fill "Black Canary"'s band with more pre-established characters. We can't leave out Silver Banshee or the Secret Six's Jeanette. They're actual banshee's, but I'm sure they can use their powers safely if they're in a band.

I'm not saying they need to make ever character like her into a singer, all I'm saying is that I can see why they did it with Black Canary.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She was? I though by the time she was crippled she was already an adult. Pretty much every image I've seen of the character she's looked like she was at least in 20s. Wasn't she also involved with Nightwing, who was also pretty clearly an adult? Was he pedophile then at that point, or at least guilty of statutory rape?

She's an adult in her early twenties. Some people think she looks younger because of the way she's drawn. The actual story has her as a twenty something. She's also usually been portrayed as older than Dick Grayson. Only recently have they been contemporaries. So it would have been Babs up on charges

While we're talking about Batgirl of Burnside, what was it that happened with the transgender character that pissed so many people off there? All I ever saw was a panel where Barbara was shocked that the character was a guy.

That was part of it. Also making the trans character a crazy villain.

 

[kirk55555]

15? Nah. Just not drawn as a generic female character. Funny story about age perception. I was looking at a photo of some friends I had in College. We were mostly in our early twenties, but in looking at that picture I would have guess we were teenagers if I didn't know better.

Oh yeah, this looks like an adult Batgirl:

Even if Catman is taller then average, that is way too tiny. I've seen Tim Drake look bigger standing next to Batman, and he's not bigger as a teen then Barbara is as an adult.

Our argument is being a singer is not "idiotic" or "stupid" for a character with sonic power, not that they have to be one. You ,know not beyond the realm of reason. Oh and for the record "Black Canary" was the name of the band. Dinah's stage name was "D D".

So, her stage name was extremely stupid, and they put the name with almost 70 years of history on the stupid band that no one will associate with the character in two years? Yeah, that's DC for you. Also, Black Canary being a singer is outside the realm of reason. It doesn't fit any version of the character, including the New 52 version. It was a completely random change by an idiot writer that an incompetent and uncaring editorial staff let through.

Too late Dinah's left the band. But you'd know that if you bothered to do the most basic of research instead of relying ignorance and empty insults.
Dinah was the lead singer, no need for two more. But they could put Roy Harper on drums and Mal Duncan on horns. Jim Rook could play guitar.

I was actually well aware she left the band. I took a shot at her band's book's cancellation (presumably because of piss poor sales) earlier in the thread. It was also fairly panned, and average to bad reviews from what I could find. It looks like, sales and creatively, Dazzler Canary was another failure for DC. Big shock.

She was? I though by the time she was crippled she was already an adult. Pretty much every image I've seen of the character she's looked like she was at least in 20s. Wasn't she also involved with Nightwing, who was also pretty clearly an adult? Was he pedophile then at that point, or at least guilty of statutory rape? I know there was that whole thing with Hal Jordan, so I guess this isn't totally out of the realm of possibility.

Of course she's supposed to be an adult, her current New 52 book just draws her as a teenager, and her appearance in Secret Six (the new 52 version) did the same thing.

What's so bad about making her "hip and modern"? It seems like making a 20something character "hip and modern" is another obvious choice. Not to mention that doing that is a good way to bring more attention to a character, and to draw in people who like "hip and modern" stuff. I like hip and modern stuff, and the bit and pieces I've heard about the Batgirl of Burnside stuff sounds good. They can't always leave all of the characters exactly the way they've been, sometimes they need to make changes to keep them relevant, and to keep them from getting stale. Making changes like they have to Barbara in the Burnside era, or turing Dinah into a singer, or Jane Foster into Thor, is a good way to open up interesting new story possibilities. Sure, they don't always work out, but it's better to continue to try different things than to just tell the same kind of stories for 50 or 70 years.

Barbara of Burnside's first appearance is her recovering from a hangover and trying to figure out what happened. Barbara Gordon, party girl? Barabara Gordon, serial tweeter? Nope, no f&^king way. She's not a flighty "hip" student. She's an intelligent superhero who definitely doesn't go on freaking benders or tweet or any of that garbage. Its cheap pandering that will age about as well as 90s pop culture did. Its just this years version of skate boarding and shouting "Extreme!", and its idiotic.

Also, what's wrong with wanting to read about the same characters? I want barbara Gordon as Oracle, I want to read the thousands of stories left to tell with her. Oracle had more stories to tell. Every pre-reboot character had more (and better) stories left to tell. Change for the sake of change is the worst thing in comics. What makes Burnside more legitimate then Oracle anyway? DC's New 52 has destroyed dozens of characters and left DC in worse financial trouble then they've been in for a long time. Stuff like Burnside Batgirl and Dazzler Canary are the reason why. The fact that not one of these changes are any good is just the manure frosting on the garbage cake that is the New 52. I can practically guarantee that the old Birds of Prey book, with Oracle and the real Black canary, was more successful financially and critically then either Dazzler Canary or Burnside Batgirl have ever been.

There is a reason characters like, say, Thor are still around at Marvel. The stupid changes get a bit of a sales spike, then either fizzle out or get removed, and the real version returns. The original version of Thor (at Marvel, not talking about mythology) will endure long past anyone knowing or caring about Jane Thorster. Similarly, Dazzler Canary will be forgotten within a few years, and Batgirl will stop tweeting and be less dated before too long. Its the suffering through the horrible and stupid changes that makes me angry, I know that the core of the characters will shine through the crap eventually.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So, her stage name was extremely stupid, and they put the name with almost 70 years of history on the stupid band that no one will associate with the character in two years? Yeah, that's DC for you. Also, Black Canary being a singer is outside the realm of reason. It doesn't fit any version of the character, including the New 52 version. It was a completely random change by an idiot writer that an incompetent and uncaring editorial staff let through.

Given that her original name is Dinah Drake, I'm not seeing why. So tell me.why can't she be a singer? You've yet to explain this. Her not being one previously really isn't a reason. Why should it fit with the past? Ollie Queen was never a liberal loud mouth in his past. Now he is. Aquaman wasn't king of Atlantis in his past. Now he is. Hal Jordan was never in the Air Force. Now he is .John Stewart was never a Marine sniper. Now he is. Things change. Characters evolve. Let go of the past and embrace the future.

It see you're still stuck on the insults and are avoiding saying anything of substance. More name calling and no facts.

Even if Catman is taller then average, that is way too tiny. I've seen Tim Drake look bigger standing next to Batman, and he's not bigger as a teen then Barbara is as an adult.

You do realize that not all adults have the same build, weight or height. you can't be that ignorant of something so obvious. I see nothing in that picture indicating Babs is 15.

 

[Nerys Myk]

arbara of Burnside's first appearance is her recovering from a hangover and trying to figure out what happened. Barbara Gordon, party girl? Barabara Gordon, serial tweeter? Nope, no f&^king way. She's not a flighty "hip" student. She's an intelligent superhero who definitely doesn't go on freaking benders or tweet or any of that garbage. I

Not everyone who gets a hangover is a "party girl". People tweet now, It's part of life. Why wouldn't someone as tech savvy as Babs use social media? It doesn't make her a "flighty student" It makes her a resident of the 21st Century. Grandmothers are using social media, why wouldn't a twenty something? Seriously, this is the most ridiculous you've said yet and that's saying something!
I hope you're not this judgemental towards real people.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Despite my personal apathy towards social media (and Twitter in particular), I think that Barbara Gordon or indeed any Batgirl would definately be into that scene (Finch from Person of Interest has somewhat informed my own personal take on Oracle) and the odd "bender" isn't out of character for a 16-24ish character who might go around as "Batgirl". However given my fondness for the Oracle character (and her recruitment of "field agents" having been an integral part of her character for at least at last twenty years or so), I would have prefered they use Cass Cain, Stephanie, Kitrina, Charlie, Sonia or even Strix as "Batgirl" in the field and for the "youth culture" plotlines they seemed to favour in her most recent title (I think Steph or Charlie would have worked best) rather than taking Babs out of the "Oracle" role.

Likewise, I can see both sides of the "Black Canary, Singer" arguement, it's a natural idea for a sound-based character (for the etymological reasons stated above) and has the potential to kick off a lot of good stories, so is a good idea. However, I also agree with Kirk55555 that it's an odd thing to introduce for Dinah at this point. So my solution would have been to retcon the Sin/marriage to Oliver plots for Dinah, have her retire, and then replace her with a new Black Canary, possibly a cousin (who goes by either Sara, Laurel or Carolyn (BoP (tv, 2002)) who could then be portrayed as a former spy/special operator who's currently working as a singer). Thoughts?

 

[JoeZhang]

Not everyone who gets a hangover is a "party girl". People tweet now, It's part of life. Why wouldn't someone as tech savvy as Babs use social media? It doesn't make her a "flighty student" It makes her a resident of the 21st Century. Grandmothers are using social media, why wouldn't a twenty something? Seriously, this is the most ridiculous you've said yet and that's saying something!
I hope you're not this judgemental towards real people.

Yes that is a rather odd analysis - using social media and getting drunk doesn't make someone 'hip' it makes then a normal person. I'm an academic and if anything they *underplay* what the average student is upto.

If they had Batgirl do what the average student does, Kirk would be clutching his pearls.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Barbara being/considering that she is Batgirl, cannot have accurate/real Social Media, as Social Media gps-locks and time stamps every snap, tweet and post made by the user, which will stymie her attempts to keep her private identity divided from her secret identity.

1. Barbara has a Bot. An AI that creates streams of social media and false gps stamps and time stamps.

2. Barbara has a mule. Another "person" who pretends to live Barbara's life, or at least the parts of Barbara's life that are Bat-Ocuppied.

3. Plagiarism. Barbara has a twitter feed etc, that is mirroring the social media of a similar enough to Babs who lives in Gotham.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Barbara being/considering that she is Batgirl, cannot have accurate/real Social Media, as Social Media gps-locks and time stamps every snap, tweet and post made by the user, which will stymie her attempts to keep her private identity divided from her secret identity.

Only a problem if she tweets etc when she's out in costume - which I assume she typically doesn't do (although some heroes do carry cellphones (MC2!Spider-Girl and Kara from Supergirl (2016) for instance) - I would have thought?

By contrast, Social media is an excellent crime-fighting/clue-gathering tool (see Person of Interest, also one of the few "tech" things that CSI, NCIS, L & O et al somewhat get right.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about when she doesn't tweet for two weeks because she's doing Batcrap?

If a good friend of yours went media dark for two weeks... Wouldn't you be worried?

(I'm pointing out a flaw, not suggesting that this is something that they are actually doing.)

 

[theenglish]

I really don't get how Barbara looks 15 in that drawing. If anything, assuming Catman is 6' then Barbara would be drawn as taller than average. If Catman is an average 5' 10" the she is probably 5' 6" which is average height for a Caucasian woman.

I think drawing Barbara/Catwoman with a more normal body and size is great for showing that comics need a greater diversity in how the characters are drawn. If the inspiration was for her to have the body and build of a gymnast (who are normally much tinier) then the artists are getting it right. What's more, I like that she is drawn with more normal size breasts and curves than many of her female counterparts. I wish that other comic artists/creators would use this as an inspiration to start drawing women with more appropriate bodies, rather than renditions of the artists' favorite porn stars.

 

[JD]

^Exactly, I see 20something women at work almost every day who look like Batgirl does in that picture.

So, her stage name was extremely stupid, and they put the name with almost 70 years of history on the stupid band that no one will associate with the character in two years? Yeah, that's DC for you. Also, Black Canary being a singer is outside the realm of reason. It doesn't fit any version of the character, including the New 52 version. It was a completely random change by an idiot writer that an incompetent and uncaring editorial staff let through.

Why is it outside the realm of reason, I honestly don't understand what is so bad about it. Is there more to your dislike than just that it hasn't been done before?

I was actually well aware she left the band. I took a shot at her band's book's cancellation (presumably because of piss poor sales) earlier in the thread. It was also fairly panned, and average to bad reviews from what I could find. It looks like, sales and creatively, Dazzler Canary was another failure for DC. Big shock.

Even if the book was bad, all that proves is just that people didn't like the book, not that BC being a singer was a bad idea. Just because a comic or whatever featuring a specific concept fails, all that means is that the book failed, not that the idea was automatically bad.

Of course she's supposed to be an adult, her current New 52 book just draws her as a teenager, and her appearance in Secret Six (the new 52 version) did the same thing.

All of the artwork I've seen from the current series makes her look like a 20 something college student.

Barbara of Burnside's first appearance is her recovering from a hangover and trying to figure out what happened. Barbara Gordon, party girl? Barabara Gordon, serial tweeter? Nope, no f&^king way. She's not a flighty "hip" student. She's an intelligent superhero who definitely doesn't go on freaking benders or tweet or any of that garbage. Its cheap pandering that will age about as well as 90s pop culture did. Its just this years version of skate boarding and shouting "Extreme!", and its idiotic.

What's so horrible about all of that? People tweet and young people do drink. I swear you really confuse me, at times you sound like a kid, but then you say something like this and you sound like you're older and don't understand younger people at all.

Also, what's wrong with wanting to read about the same characters? I want barbara Gordon as Oracle, I want to read the thousands of stories left to tell with her. Oracle had more stories to tell. Every pre-reboot character had more (and better) stories left to tell. Change for the sake of change is the worst thing in comics. What makes Burnside more legitimate then Oracle anyway? DC's New 52 has destroyed dozens of characters and left DC in worse financial trouble then they've been in for a long time. Stuff like Burnside Batgirl and Dazzler Canary are the reason why. The fact that not one of these changes are any good is just the manure frosting on the garbage cake that is the New 52. I can practically guarantee that the old Birds of Prey book, with Oracle and the real Black canary, was more successful financially and critically then either Dazzler Canary or Burnside Batgirl have ever been.

We've already gotten plenty of stories about those versions of the characters, so I don't see the harm in trying something different. Sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it's a huge hit and people love it, there's no harm in trying.

There is a reason characters like, say, Thor are still around at Marvel. The stupid changes get a bit of a sales spike, then either fizzle out or get removed, and the real version returns. The original version of Thor (at Marvel, not talking about mythology) will endure long past anyone knowing or caring about Jane Thorster. Similarly, Dazzler Canary will be forgotten within a few years, and Batgirl will stop tweeting and be less dated before too long. Its the suffering through the horrible and stupid changes that makes me angry, I know that the core of the characters will shine through the crap eventually.

If these things are going to be forgotten about anyways, then why get so worked up about it? If you don't like it than just wait until it goes away.

 

[sojourner]

The most disturbing thing about that image is the headless goat floating in space behind Catman that neither of them seems to notice.

 

[JD]

It's not headless, it's got a fly's head and wings. Which is actually probably worse.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's one of his pets.

 

[JD]

Was it some kind of experiment or something?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Honestly, I don't remember.

 

[kirk55555]

Why is it outside the realm of reason, I honestly don't understand what is so bad about it. Is there more to your dislike than just that it hasn't been done before?

I doesn't fit the character, any version. Some people just aren't singers. Again,(and I'll repeat it forever): You wouldn't make Bruce Wayne a rapper. The reasons for this are fairly obvious. Its exactly the same with Black Canary. No version in her almost 70 year history is the type of character who would become a singer. I can't get more clear then that. It just doesn't fit. Like batman the rapper, or, say, Superman the male stripper. Some things just don't fit with some characters.

What's so horrible about all of that? People tweet and young people do drink. I swear you really confuse me, at times you sound like a kid, but then you say something like this and you sound like you're older and don't understand younger people at all.

She's a damn superhero, and she's also an adult and long out of college (at least the real version, and the first New 52 version written by Gail Simone). Having her tweet is like when characters in the 90s shouted "EXTREME" and loved skateboarding and all those other 90s things. Its annoying garbage that dates the character horribly. Also, I've read a lot of stuff with Barbara Gordon. The character never acted like that. I've never actually seen her in any form go partying. Its something mindless yahoos do, not superheroes. At least, not most superheroes, and definitely not Batgirl.

As for my age, I'm 25. That doesn't mean I have to like things that some members of my age group (or people around that age, I'm probably older then the tweeting and drinking crowd) like. I want to read about heroes anyway, not generic people that actually exist. Yeah, in real life some people drink and party and tweet. But, this isn't real life, its superhero comics. Some real life details just don't work. No superhero, outside of maybe an alcoholic like Iron man or Carol Danvers, should have a story involving them recovering from a hangover. That kind of "realism" is what you see in crappy "slice of life" indy stories, and generic tv sitcomcs.

We've already gotten plenty of stories about those versions of the characters, so I don't see the harm in trying something different. Sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it's a huge hit and people love it, there's no harm in trying.

What's the harm in using established heroes with decent to big fan bases? There is no such thing as a limit on good stories. No DC hero was running out of good stories when they rebooted. There is no reason to change a character if they already work well. Black Canary and Batgirl didn't need revamps in 2011 or later, they were just ruined by terrible people.

If these things are going to be forgotten about anyways, then why get so worked up about it? If you don't like it than just wait until it goes away.

I get worked up because I don't want to wait decades to read stories with the real characters. I've already suffered through 5 years of the New 52 and very few of my favorite heroes are back. I may have to wait until Didio, Harras and Johns die of old age before characters like Batgirl, Black Canary, Power Girl, Captain Marvel, etc. go back to their former glory. I'm certainly not suffering quietly, and I'm not letting my problems go because "Things change, go with the flow".

Given that her original name is Dinah Drake, I'm not seeing why. So tell me.why can't she be a singer? You've yet to explain this. Her not being one previously really isn't a reason. Why should it fit with the past? Ollie Queen was never a liberal loud mouth in his past. Now he is. Aquaman wasn't king of Atlantis in his past. Now he is. Hal Jordan was never in the Air Force. Now he is .John Stewart was never a Marine sniper. Now he is. Things change. Characters evolve. Let go of the past and embrace the future.

So, I should just ignore DC erasing every hero I've every enjoyed from their entire universe? Screw that. I want Oracle and the real Black Canary. I'm not going to shut up about DC until they stop being idiots and I get to read stories with the classic characters, not the abominations that hack writers and terrible editors shove out on a regular basis.