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Cryonics. Hopeful stuff or people wasting their time?

Gingerbread Demon

Yelling at the Vorlons
Premium Member
Well it's interesting.

There's obviously a market for this or people would not be shelling out their money to have themselves turned into frozen popsicles.

I thought the process of being in liquid nitrogen would cause cells to explode from the freezing process even if you do remove the blood and other fluids? Wouldn't there be irreversible cell damage from the actual freezing process inside the tube the body is in? Not to mention the very delicate parts and organs like the brain.

What prompted me to think on this was a story I had just seen on TV about a young girl in the USA who had just been frozen after dying of an aggressive brain tumour. She did this in the hope that one day she might be thawed and revived.

Anyway thoughts on this anyone?

I'm not sold on the idea that this would work now let alone the reverse process in the future. And how do we know that company will still be around in 20 or 50 years time from now still holding all those bodies and with all the equipment still running let alone well preserved corpses waiting for revival...
 
I've always thought of it as a big gamble with very little to recommend it. From what little I've read, it assumes that the medical technology to cure the patient's ailment (I guess death is the ultimate "ailment") and freezer damage will exist "sometime" in the future. Freezing might be the dead-end we currently believe it to be. Maybe sometime in the future a long-term biological stasis will be discovered, and those researchers will look back at all the frozen people and quip, "Well, they just did everything wrong!"

Also, how does the patient pay for indeterminate storage and revival? Heinlein's The Door Into Summer addressed this. It's been a very long time since I read When The Sleeper Wakes, but waking up and learning that you own half the world does not sound very likely. Or perhaps the proverbial socialism-that-really-works will revive yet another mouth to feed out of the goodness of its heart?

Cryonics is backing into immortality from the "top-down." It's like NASA's alleged "warp drive" (Alcubierre drive) that will really work by bending space and taking us to Barnard's in time for lunch. All we need is the entirely fictional "exotic matter" that makes up the ring. From there, the rest is easy.
 
Well it's interesting.

There's obviously a market for this or people would not be shelling out their money to have themselves turned into frozen popsicles.

I thought the process of being in liquid nitrogen would cause cells to explode from the freezing process even if you do remove the blood and other fluids? Wouldn't there be irreversible cell damage from the actual freezing process inside the tube the body is in? Not to mention the very delicate parts and organs like the brain.

What prompted me to think on this was a story I had just seen on TV about a young girl in the USA who had just been frozen after dying of an aggressive brain tumour. She did this in the hope that one day she might be thawed and revived.

Anyway thoughts on this anyone?

I'm not sold on the idea that this would work now let alone the reverse process in the future. And how do we know that company will still be around in 20 or 50 years time from now still holding all those bodies and with all the equipment still running let alone well preserved corpses waiting for revival...
They don't freeze people. When you are put into cryonic stasis, you're not frozen, you're vitrified. With this process, your cells will not explode, and at the same time your brain is safely stored as a form of crystal, or glass. The process can then be reversed when whatever it was that killed you has been made curable via medicine. It's a long shot, but it's better than just rotting in the ground (in this person's opinion).

The most important aspect of the process is information survival. As long as they can save the brain, anything else can be repaired later. Preventing information death is absolutely key to the process. Here, this FAQ from the Cryonics Institute might help: http://www.cryonics.org/about-us/myths/
 
They don't freeze people. When you are put into cryonic stasis, you're not frozen, you're vitrified. With this process, your cells will not explode, and at the same time your brain is safely stored as a form of crystal, or glass. The process can then be reversed when whatever it was that killed you has been made curable via medicine. It's a long shot, but it's better than just rotting in the ground (in this person's opinion).

The most important aspect of the process is information survival. As long as they can save the brain, anything else can be repaired later. Preventing information death is absolutely key to the process. Here, this FAQ from the Cryonics Institute might help: http://www.cryonics.org/about-us/myths/


OK thanks for that but how long can a person be stored in that fashion?

How do we know that companies like Alcor will still be viable in 10 years let alone 20 or 50 or even a 100 for when a possible revival or cure might be possible? What happens if the company goes bankrupt?
 
Yeah, those questions aren't answered on the FAQ. I could afford to pay for the service but I don't know if the future would welcome my revival even if someone were willing to perform it and future society might be so alien or abhorrent to me that I wished I had never been revived. See, for example, Cold Lazarus by Dennis Potter.

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Yeah, those questions aren't answered on the FAQ. I could afford to pay for the service but I don't know if the future would welcome my revival even if someone were willing to perform it and future society might be so alien or abhorrent to me that I wished I had never been revived. See, for example, Cold Lazarus by Dennis Potter.

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That's interesting
 
Assuming any memory does survive much less the whole persona, what would be the point to these historical popsicles in a few centuries? Suppose that future society has no use for a bunch of retrograde savages beyond idle curiosity?
 
Cold Lazarus suggested that media moguls would be tempted to extract the memories for use as virtual reality entertainment. (Dennis Potter really hated Rupert Murdoch.) Of course, extracting memories seems like a stretch although primitive attempts are being made at the moment to do just that by using MRI scans. With advances in nanotech, perhaps it might be possible by direct stimulation of individual neurons.
 
Will they be able to tell a memory from a fiction or a perceived reality from a fantasy? The speculation on where the lines can be drawn between those simple dichotomies alone sound quite perplexing. That is, again, if those impressions which create the sum of an individual's unique mind can be saved much less recovered.
 
Will they be able to tell a memory from a fiction or a perceived reality from a fantasy? The speculation on where the lines can be drawn between those simple dichotomies alone sound quite perplexing. That is, again, if those impressions which create the sum of an individual's unique mind can be saved much less recovered.


Exactly.

How could you tell my real mind or memories from my imagination mind where I'm a 007ish Timelord travelling the universe saving planets and finding babes. The technology to decipher which is which would have to be pretty damn advanced.
 
Cold Lazarus suggested that media moguls would be tempted to extract the memories for use as virtual reality entertainment.

That sounds like Robert Sheckley's Immortality, Inc. (Naturally, the movie bearing that name is nothing like the book.) The protagonist is not a cryonic sleeper, but awakens in the future after dying in the 20th century. He revives with a bunch of media vultures around him trying to harvest his emotions of the event.

Imagine a cryonaut reviving in a future run by dinosaurs who have cloned him for a theme park to show what it looked like back when humans roamed the Earth. "Get your claws off me, you damned dirty lizard!"
 
To me, it seems like a unspeakably horrific prospect that some unscrupulous person in the future might want to mine your corpsicle brain for profit. But how do any of us know that we are not currently plugged into a simulation apparatus merely for the purpose of entertaining a wider audience? Sounds a bit more likely scenario than merely being used as organic batteries.
 
Sounds a bit more likely scenario than merely being used as organic batteries.

The Matrix can trace its roots all the way back to Plato's Cave, but the most direct inspiration for the movie (and several others) is James P. Hogan's novel Realtime Interrupt. The scenario in that story is far more compelling than "human batteries." I actually scoffed out loud the first time I heard that, along with Morpheus's line, "Combined with a form of fusion the machines have found all the energy they would ever need." If the machines had any kind of fusion power, they wouldn't need the grossly inefficient waste heat of human bodies. Also, harvesting microcephalic bodies would obviate the need for a complex virtual world and rebelling humans. (Anything would be a more efficient power source, no matter how you slice it.)

"When Irish eyes are smiling..."
 
Or we might be plugged into a virtual simulation that is designed to torture us in every way possible simply for the unknowable gratification of an Eldritch being as in "A Colder War" by Charles Stross.
 
Or maybe we are all stuck inside our own device like the Doctor's confession dial and with the right information the dial will release us eventually.
 
OK thanks for that but how long can a person be stored in that fashion?

How do we know that companies like Alcor will still be viable in 10 years let alone 20 or 50 or even a 100 for when a possible revival or cure might be possible? What happens if the company goes bankrupt?
Well, companies like Alcor have a Board of Directors who deal specifically with that: http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/faq05.html#funds

Q: Why would Alcor’s Patient Care Trust and Alcor appointed Trust Advisors want to revive patients rather than keep long-term care funds?

A: The Board overseeing the Patient Care Trust (PCT) is chosen by the Alcor Board of Directors. The PCT Board exists for the purpose of controlling and approving all expenditures of PCT funds, which are for the long-term care and revival of Alcor patients. The five PCT Board members are chosen for five year staggered terms, and serve without pay. Alcor chooses PCT Board members to fulfill two of the most important objectives of Alcor’s Mission Statement: keeping current patients in biostasis, and then restoring them and reintegrating them into society. Three of five PCT Board members are required to have family members currently in cryopreservation, adding personal motives for secure care and revival when possible.

Individual Trusts created by individual members often use Alcor appointed “Trust Advisors” who can be called on to make important Trust-related decisions after the member has been cryopreserved. Trust Advisors are obligated to carry out the wishes and serve the interests of the member, not Alcor, but an Alcor-appointed Trust Advisor raises the concern that Alcor’s financial interests might be given undue weight in a Trust Advisor’s decision making process. The Alcor Model Revocable Asset Preservation Trust includes a paragraph discussing the financial incentive to revive you:

To provide an incentive to revive you sooner rather than later, the Model Trust lets you pick a percentage of the Trust Assets to be given to Alcor upon successful revival. Giving more to Alcor provides a greater incentive to revive you sooner (and also provides more funds with which to carry out that revival), but also a greater incentive to try risky techniques that might not be fully proven. Giving less to Alcor creates less financial incentive to rush into a premature attempt to revive you, but also provides less incentive to revive you in the timeliest fashion. It is difficult to say exactly how large this incentive should be, or even whether there should be an incentive, but the Model Trust lets you decide how big an incentive you want to provide for a successful revival.

Opinions about how big to make the financial incentive for revival, or even the advisability of such an incentive, vary considerably. Widely varying opinions are common in the cryonics community. Some individual members have Asset Preservation Trusts that provide a simple fixed annual percentage (anywhere from 1% to 5% annually) to Alcor with no other incentive, while others provide substantial sums upon their revival and little or nothing prior to that. The latter provides substantial financial incentive for early revival.

Besides the financial incentive provided by individual members’ Asset Preservation Trusts, the Alcor PCT can discharge its responsibilities to its patients by reviving them and reintegrating them into the community. This reduces the financial costs of reviving patients, and might even provide a financial incentive to revive patients. Just as computer technology keeps falling in price, many technology forecasters expect future advances in information-intensive technologies, including molecular manufacturing, and nanomedicine, to fall exponentially in price until reviving patients is actually less expensive than keeping them cryopreserved.

Financial incentives, however, are often not the most significant forces driving human behavior. As advancing preservation technology and advancing medical repair technology converge, the revival of recent patients who were cryopreserved with minimum damage will greatly increase the credibility of cryonics and the security of cryonics organizations. This benefits leaders and members of cryonics organizations by increasing the security and revival prospects of their cryopreserved friends and family. It will also increase their own survival prospects if and when they need cryopreservation themselves. Finally, from a very human and purely emotional perspective, the urge to say “We told you so!” will likely be irresistible.

Even after cryonics patients begin to be revived, there will still be injuries that cannot be repaired in real time and require cryopreservation to buy time or wait for even more advanced technology (e.g. severe brain trauma, extended periods of clinical death at warm temperature, or malfunctioning medical technology).

After the first few successful revivals, the whole world will view our patients as just that: patients. Once that change takes place, unnecessary delay in reviving them will be viewed in the same way we view any other delay in medical treatment. As a society, such delays are viewed as unacceptable socially, legally, ethically, morally, and politically. Undue delay could result in unrest, lawsuits, or even criminal liability for unlawful imprisonment. Alcor, as a prime mover in creating this societal change, is going to be the last organization to delay treating the patients under its care.

Claims that cryonics organizations might keep their patients cryopreserved forever for their own financial gain comes from the same lack of understanding from which the myth arose that cryonics may be consumer fraud.

The rest of the FAQ on that page explains how all of the financials work. It's worth reading.
 
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