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DC Comics: Rebirth

Well, I hate Watchmen, so that's just making my point stronger in my opinion. But, it doesn't really count anyway. DC did control Moore with that story, in that they refused to let him use Charlton characters. So, its not even really a DC book, its an Alan Moore original story with characters he created that DC happens to have the rights to (or at least it was just that, until recently). I've never read Moore's Swamp Thing, and probably won't. I seriously doubt that Moore was allowed to do anything that effected any part of the DC Universe outside of Swamp Thing anyway, and from what I know Swamp Thing wasn't a super popular character so DC probably didn't really care what Moore did with him anyway.

Moore's Swamp Thing (and John Constantine in the same book) certainly effected Beast Boy's adoptive father Steve Dayton, a.k.a. supervillain Mento, which in turn effected the New Teen Titans at the time with several references in that book. Moore's Swamp Thing also visited Adam Strange on Rann, which was later referenced in the "Adam Strange: The Man of two Worlds" mini-series. Aside from that, there were guest-appearances of the Justice League, including Superman, though that was more of a cameo. Alan Moore wrote a Superman/Swamp Thing team-up story for "DC Comics Presents" #85, though.
 
Moore's Swamp Thing (and John Constantine in the same book) certainly effected Beast Boy's adoptive father Steve Dayton, a.k.a. supervillain Mento, which in turn effected the New Teen Titans at the time with several references in that book. Moore's Swamp Thing also visited Adam Strange on Rann, which was later referenced in the "Adam Strange: The Man of two Worlds" mini-series. Aside from that, there were guest-appearances of the Justice League, including Superman, though that was more of a cameo. Alan Moore wrote a Superman/Swamp Thing team-up story for "DC Comics Presents" #85, though.

I'm not saying his run didn't interact with other comics, just that Alan Moore's Swamp Thing didn't make long lasting changes to very much, outside maybe to Swamp Thing. Its not really a comic where Alan Moore got a lot of freedom so much as it was a book about a D-list character that DC let Moore mess around with because it really didn't matter to them. He wasn't pushing limits with the book because DC didn't care enough about Swamp Thing to give Moore any real limits.

Looking up what you said about Mento, I just saw that Moore is responsible for the terrible "Mento is an insane villain" thing, and he killed off Zatara and Sargon, all in Swamp Thing. That actually makes me really dislike Moore's Swamp Thing by association, well that and the fact that he introduced the most overrated (yet still B-list) character in DC comics with John Constantine. I like a lot of Moore's stuff, but his runs with DC heroes almost seem designed to drive me nuts. Outside of one good Superman story (For the Man Who Has Everything), Moore might be the only good writer whose original/non-hero stuff is better then his hero stuff.
 
So far I've read Action Comics, Wonder Woman Rebirth, And Flash Rebirth. Action Comics was good and it left me wanting more, and so did the Flash. I wasn't as crazy about Wonder Woman Rebirth but I am interested in where Rucka is going with it.
 
5s, if you don't want to move away from the Big 2, there's always Icon and Vertigo, the Big 2's creator owned imprints.
I honestly think this is the first time I've ever heard someone say that the Big 2 superhero books are better than the indie books. Obviously there are great B2, and bad indies, but it still seems like overall most people consider the indies to be better.
 
5s, if you don't want to move away from the Big 2, there's always Icon and Vertigo, the Big 2's creator owned imprints.
I honestly think this is the first time I've ever heard someone say that the Big 2 superhero books are better than the indie books. Obviously there are great B2, and bad indies, but it still seems like overall most people consider the indies to be better.

Well, I love comics because of the DC/Marvel characters. There is other stuff too, like comics based off of properties like Star Wars, but DC/Marvel are why I got into comics, and they're my main interest in comics. I don't like indies because they don't have the characters or universes I care about. As an example, I don't care about Ed Brubaker's 12,000 different crime/noir comic books, or Greg Rucka writing about a witch sheriff. But, you put those writers on books like Captain America or Wonder Woman, and they're big draws for me. I'm sure people write some quality indy stuff, but it doesn't interest me because its not what I like. The exception, like I said, is when Indy publishers like Image or Dark horse publish things like Star Wars or, to use a recent example, the awesome TMNT book that IDW is publishing right now. In the end superheroes are the big draw in comics for me, and no one does heroes and a universe full of heroes better than Marvel or (pre-reboot) DC. Basically, what I want from comics is what Marvel and (good, pre-reboot) DC gives me, not what Indies put out.

As for Vertigo and Icon, Neil Gaiman's Sandman is one of my favorite comics ever, and it was a Vertigo book. Its one of the rare ones I like, though. Generally Vertigo seems to publish badly drawn, dark and gritty stuff like Hellblazer or Preacher. I'm not into the "pseudo adult" genre of gritty ultra violent books, the things writers like Garth Ennis and Mark Millar generally love, and that's the main product of Vertigo, at at least seems to be. Plus, like I said, I love comics because of the superheroes, which Vertigo definitely doesn't have.
 
You do realize there are indie superhero comics like Irredemable, Invincible, Jupiter's Children/Circle, ect.
Sorry, we already had this discussion, so we should probably just move on.
So are the Rebirth issues all being written by the writers for the regular series? Would they pretty much just be #0s for the new series?
 
Sorry, we already had this discussion, so we should probably just move on.
It's a good discussion to have. There's always your generic comic book thread we could continue the discussion in.
So are the Rebirth issues all being written by the writers for the regular series? Would they pretty much just be #0s for the new series?
That seems about right, but I could be wrong.
 
I'm not saying his run didn't interact with other comics, just that Alan Moore's Swamp Thing didn't make long lasting changes to very much, outside maybe to Swamp Thing. Its not really a comic where Alan Moore got a lot of freedom so much as it was a book about a D-list character that DC let Moore mess around with because it really didn't matter to them. He wasn't pushing limits with the book because DC didn't care enough about Swamp Thing to give Moore any real limits.

Actually, Len Wein, co-creator and then-editor of Swamp Thing, called upon Alan Moore, because he liked his work on "Miracleman". If DC didn't care enough for Swamp Thing, they would never have gone to the trouble of hiring a writer who lived in the UK (it was actually unheard of at the time, and without the help of the internet, it was no easy feat). You can bet, the character's co-creator cared very much about said character.
Also, Moore very much pushed the limits of what could be published in a comic book involved in the DC Universe, with quite mature themes. And it was so popular, that not only is it the seminal work on the character, not only did Moore create the "overrated" John Constantine for this book - who went on to star in more than 300 issues of comic books, as well as a movie and a (too) short-lived TV show, so popular was he - , but the whole Vertigo imprint is based on the success of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

You may not like the book (or John Constantine), but that might be because it wasn't a superhero book, and it never was. Swamp Thing is a fantasy horror character, same with John Constantine. You have every right to dislike the characters or the genre, but it's ridiculous to downplay the popularity and success of Moore, the book, and/or the character.

As for lasting effect on DC characters outside of Swamp Thing, well, no, the book had no lasting effect on DC characters outside of Swamp Thing (and John Constantine), if you define "lasting" as lasting more than a few years. But why would you expect it to have?! It was a book on Swamp Thing, not the JLA, or the Green Lantern Corps. Exactly how many lasting effects on Superman have there been in Detective Comics over the years?

Looking up what you said about Mento, I just saw that Moore is responsible for the terrible "Mento is an insane villain" thing, and he killed off Zatara and Sargon, all in Swamp Thing. That actually makes me really dislike Moore's Swamp Thing by association, well that and the fact that he introduced the most overrated (yet still B-list) character in DC comics with John Constantine. I like a lot of Moore's stuff, but his runs with DC heroes almost seem designed to drive me nuts. Outside of one good Superman story (For the Man Who Has Everything), Moore might be the only good writer whose original/non-hero stuff is better then his hero stuff.

Well, taste is always up to the individual. But there's no denying Moore had some influence on other DC works, in terms of characters, as well as on style.

Outside of Swamp Thing, Moore had very lasting effects on DC characters in the small number of stories he wrote in the DCU. He created the living planet Green Lantern Mogo, who was used decades later and was even featured in the animated "Green Lantern: Emerald Knights", he wrote the bookend for the pre-Crisis Superman in "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", and his "Killing Joke" had a very lasting effect on Barbara Gordon.

You may not like his work from the 80s, which is fine, but the legacy of Alan Moore, both at DC (and Marvel, thanks to his "Captain Britain" stories) and with his original comics is irrefutable.

As for works by Alan Moore you might like, given your dislike for his darker stories from the 80s, maybe you should try his "Supreme" comics, which were one huge love letter to Superman. You might also enjoy his work with America's Best Comics, especially Tom Strong and Top10.
 
Yeah, as far as I can tell the Rebirth writers are the regular writers. And Rebirths are "0" issues for the ones restarting at #1.

The thing about Moore is he seems to excell at taking other people's creations and putting his own twist on them: Marvel/Miracle Man,Captain Britain, Swamp Thing, The cast of LOEG and Supreme are all pre-existing characters. Watchmen is based on pre-existing characters. America's Best Comics plays with several archetypes. Even From Hell is about Jack the Ripper, a real person. Which is why I tend to laugh when Moore or his fans complain about others using his characters.
 
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Actually, Len Wein, co-creator and then-editor of Swamp Thing, called upon Alan Moore, because he liked his work on "Miracleman". If DC didn't care enough for Swamp Thing, they would never have gone to the trouble of hiring a writer who lived in the UK (it was actually unheard of at the time, and without the help of the internet, it was no easy feat). You can bet, the character's co-creator cared very much about said character.
Also, Moore very much pushed the limits of what could be published in a comic book involved in the DC Universe, with quite mature themes. And it was so popular, that not only is it the seminal work on the character, not only did Moore create the "overrated" John Constantine for this book - who went on to star in more than 300 issues of comic books, as well as a movie and a (too) short-lived TV show, so popular was he - , but the whole Vertigo imprint is based on the success of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

I never said that Constantine wasn't in a lot of stuff, just that I found him overrated. Things can be overrated and used way too much. Also, I stand by what I said. DC didn't care about Swamp Thing, Len Wein did. I also think that blaming Alan Moore for Vertigo is a bit mean. I wouldn't want to blame that on anyone except the people who directly thought it up :shifty:

You may not like the book (or John Constantine), but that might be because it wasn't a superhero book, and it never was. Swamp Thing is a fantasy horror character, same with John Constantine. You have every right to dislike the characters or the genre, but it's ridiculous to downplay the popularity and success of Moore, the book, and/or the character.

I actually like Swamp Thing, even if I didn't read much with him until recently. Charles Soule's recent run was good (coming after Scott Snyder's terrible run), and Len Wein's six issue mini that's almost done was entertaining. Swamp Thing does seem to be pretty unknown to anyone who doesn't read comics, though. Heck, even Constantine is better known, with that average movie and bad TV show giving him a little exposure outside of hardcore comic people. Maybe a non comic fan might remember the terrible Swamp Thing movies, but they're probably as obscure as the comics by now. Also, who was downplaying Moore's sucess? I certainly wasn't. I'd just say that he just wasn't super successful in writing good superhero books. Overall, he's obviously a well known guy who has done a lot of stuff.

Well, taste is always up to the individual. But there's no denying Moore had some influence on other DC works, in terms of characters, as well as on style.

Outside of Swamp Thing, Moore had very lasting effects on DC characters in the small number of stories he wrote in the DCU. He created the living planet Green Lantern Mogo, who was used decades later and was even featured in the animated "Green Lantern: Emerald Knights", he wrote the bookend for the pre-Crisis Superman in "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", and his "Killing Joke" had a very lasting effect on Barbara Gordon.

I like The Killing Joke (even though I'll admit it has definite problems), and Mogo is cool. I never said that Moore did nothing well with heroes, just not much. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow was really lame though, basically a bad Silver Age story. I like SA stories, but that was not a good one. I said his Swamp Thing didn't have long lasting changes to anything, not that Moore didn't create stuff that lasted at DC.

You may not like his work from the 80s, which is fine, but the legacy of Alan Moore, both at DC (and Marvel, thanks to his "Captain Britain" stories) and with his original comics is irrefutable.

As for works by Alan Moore you might like, given your dislike for his darker stories from the 80s, maybe you should try his "Supreme" comics, which were one huge love letter to Superman. You might also enjoy his work with America's Best Comics, especially Tom Strong and Top10.

When it comes to Alan Moore, I've think I've read all of his stuff I'll ever read at this point. This is the stuff of his I've liked: V for Vendetta, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, For the Man Who Has Everything, and The Killing Joke. I HATE Watchmen and dislike Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow. The rest of his stuff I don't plan to read. I definitely don't want to read him taking a horrible Rob Liefeld character like Supreme and making it into a "love letter" for a character he only wrote well once. I'd rather read Rob Liefeld's Supreme then Alan Moore's Superman. He undoubtedly has a legacy, who was arguing about that?

You do realize there are indie superhero comics like Irredemable, Invincible, Jupiter's Children/Circle, ect.

Yep, there are certainly a bunch of lame/uninteresting Superhero comics out there. That's why I said that DC/Marvel do superheroes best, not that they're technically the only ones. For good superheroes I'd say that DC/Marvel are basically the only ones, but other companies/writers try. Usually very poorly, outside of a few exceptions (Gail Simone's Welcome to Tranquility was awesome).
 
I don't know man. Invincible is pretty damn good. It would probably be the next to last book I would drop if I was cutting back.
 
I second Savage Dragon on Invincible. Sometimes it gets a little gory for my taste but the story has been consistently top notch and Kirkman's done a great job of creating a universe of characters.

As for Kirk55555's comment about Moore's Swamp Thing run not having an impact on the overall DC universe, I completely disagree. Aside from Constantine's incorporation as a major DC universe character, Moore's concept of the Parliament of Trees and the Green has come to play an important role in the lives of other "plant" inspired characters both good and bad. Moore's run on Swamp Thing has played a huge influence on the current DC Universe.
 
I second Savage Dragon on Invincible. Sometimes it gets a little gory for my taste but the story has been consistently top notch and Kirkman's done a great job of creating a universe of characters.

As for Kirk55555's comment about Moore's Swamp Thing run not having an impact on the overall DC universe, I completely disagree. Aside from Constantine's incorporation as a major DC universe character, Moore's concept of the Parliament of Trees and the Green has come to play an important role in the lives of other "plant" inspired characters both good and bad. Moore's run on Swamp Thing has played a huge influence on the current DC Universe.

Yeah, the "current" universe. The terrible New 52, with all its idiotic things like the Green/Red/Grey/Pink/Brown/Fuchsia/Orange/etc color scale of nature (because that doesn't feel like a stupid version of the Lantern Corps dynamic at all) . Nothing that inspired the New 52 should really be considered a positive. The DCU would be better off if they didn't try to BS every plant based person as being part of "the green anyway. Not that much better because its not that big a deal, but still.

Also, Constantine is not a major DC character. He has never been, and will never be. He's just some B-list magic user who basically gets treated like the "cool" anti-hero and has absolutely no character outside of "a-hole who knows everything and always outsmarts every other character, because he's moody and cool and dark". In the mainstream, he's had one movie that was basically a failure (at least critically, and it never had a sequel), and a terrible TV show that rightfully got cancelled. He's not exactly Batman.

I give up. How can you have a discussion with someone who mistakes personal taste for objective quality?

I wasn't saying anything objectively. It was all my own opinion. A lot of that stuff could be great when it comes to its actual quality. Maybe Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is written really well, and maybe some of the indie comics like Invincible are some of the best written material in its category. To me though, Moore's Swamp Thing is not worth reading and I'd rather watch paint dry then read 99.999999999999999999% of indy comics, whether they're superhero based or not. That's just how that stuff works out for me.

I don't know man. Invincible is pretty damn good. It would probably be the next to last book I would drop if I was cutting back.

That's fine. It might be an objectively good book. I'll never read it, because I don't like indy heroes. Invincible isn't from DC/Marvel, and its writer can go wild with it. That makes it a bad book based on how I determine what comics I like. Well, that and his costume is one of the worst I've ever seen, and his origin is basically "What if Superman was an evil alien invader who had a son, and that son tried to stop him from invading", which is far from interesting to me. Still, I'm not tying to bash specific comics. I have my likes and dislikes, and Invincible is, by its very nature, something I'll never try, and never like.
 
i would argue that Constantine is not a major DC character, rather he is a major Vertigo character. there is a difference. or at least, there used to be.

i think you will find your opinion of Moore's Swamp Thing to be in the minority. which is fine. i'm not here to say you simply must love it. but i remember ages ago when i was dissatisfied with Marvel i started reading more DC and also tried various indy comics. and it seems that you are not that happy with much of DC and Marvel's current offerings.
 
i would argue that Constantine is not a major DC character, rather he is a major Vertigo character. there is a difference. or at least, there used to be.

i think you will find your opinion of Moore's Swamp Thing to be in the minority. which is fine. i'm not here to say you simply must love it. but i remember ages ago when i was dissatisfied with Marvel i started reading more DC and also tried various indy comics. and it seems that you are not that happy with much of DC and Marvel's current offerings.

I really enjoy a lot of Marvel's current offerings. Its not as good as it was circa 2005-2010 or so, but its fine. Sure, Nick Spencer has ruined Steve Rogers, Lady Thor is stupid and I hope the real Thor gets Mjolnir back sooner rather then later, and if I never have to see Kamala Kahn or Lil' Nova in a comic ever again I'll be the happiest comic fan on Earth. But they still put out a lot of great books. The Inhumans getting some time to shine is cool (even if the X-Men aren't doing great, which sucks). Invincible Iron Man is the best Iron Man book in years. I could easily go on. Even DC is having a bit of an upswing with Rebirth, and I'm hopeful it will improve more.

No indy does what the Big 2 do, because they can't. That's why I don't read much indy, because they aren't what I want. If I had to choose between reading no comics or only Indy comics, I wouldn't read comics. Indies don't interest me, they aren't what I like. I like superhero (and superhero related) comics from Marvel and DC, and some licensed comics featuring franchises I like. To me, that's what comics are. People can like the other stuff, but I just don't, generally speaking.

As for my opinion on Swamp Thing, i'm fine with having a less popular opinion. I like the character enough when good writers have him. As far as I'm concerned, Charles Soule did the first interesting Swamp Thing run, and Len Wein is doing a fairly decent mini with the character.
 
Ok, someone up thread mentioned moving this over to my general comics thread and I think that would be a good idea. We're really drifting pretty far away from the Rebirth discussion here.
So get this back on topic, would I miss much important stuff if I skipped from the end of Azzarello's WW run, and then jumped to WW Rebirth and the new Ruck run? I'm almost done with the the Azzarello run, but it sounds like most people haven't really liked the Finchs' run, so I was thinking about just skipping them.
 
Ok, someone up thread mentioned moving this over to my general comics thread and I think that would be a good idea. We're really drifting pretty far away from the Rebirth discussion here.
So get this back on topic, would I miss much important stuff if I skipped from the end of Azzarello's WW run, and then jumped to WW Rebirth and the new Ruck run? I'm almost done with the the Azzarello run, but it sounds like most people haven't really liked the Finchs' run, so I was thinking about just skipping them.
yeah, i think you could skip it completely.
 
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