I wonder if the animation will look like Timm's art style? I missed his style and his storytelling direction.
Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
- Start date
..and the purpose was about the effect on the lead character.
But you must remember that you're living in the era of extremist, false offense politics, where any alleged "wrong" experienced by females in any aboveboard work of fiction is labeled as sexist / abusive, etc. The point of Barbara's treatment in the grand scheme of it all was its effect on Batman. He is the prime mover--the focus of the story, just as Jason Todd's death was about how Batman would take it / change his life. Fiction...well, good fiction is not about balancing imaginary scales, particularity in superhero fiction.
No thats usually how Star Trek fans worked since the '87.
Well, art is fiction is typically saying something, and by treating women as a side concern in a story about men, a lot of people see that as saying that women don't matter. It's also worth keeping in mind that in stories like this, many people care about the characters just as much as they would a real person, so something like this can be very upsetting to fans who care about that character.
Context and the way it's presented are still important, and it's a major issue that should not be treated casually in a piece of popular fiction.
I think the whole women in refrigerators movement proves that this is an issue that a lot of people care about.
And thats when those "people" need to be reminded that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. You can find a hidden meaning in anything if you look hard enough.e g: people who found hidden messages in beatle records.
And that's when they need to be reminded about the difference between fantasy and reality. It's one thing to feel empathy or hatred towards a fictional character. It's a whole other thing to spin it as some kind of ridiculous political statement in real life where there isn't any.
For a character like the Joker the context and the way it was presented was just right. Just because in a story the struggle was between two men doesn't mean that only men should have bad things happen to them or women should be off limits in that situation.
I remember my reaction the first time reading and it was nothing but sympathy for barbara, hatred towards Joker and hope for the Batman to stop him. Exactly what any good story is suppose to do.Writers should never feel the need to hold back just because it might upset people.
And the artists also has to consider what people are going to see in the story, and should try to make sure that people see what they meant them to see. Sometimes a few people might see something that you didn't intend, but if a lot of people see that thing that you didn't intend, then that means that you weren't clear enough, or didn't consider enough of the alternate interpretations. If Christopher is right and Alan Moore has said that he regrets or has reconsidered what happened to Barbara in the story I think it is pretty clear that what I'm talking about what not his intention with the story.
This goes back to my last point, and if something that wasn't meant to be a political statement, but a notable number of people turn it into one, like the whole Women in Refrigarators thing, then the writer should have been more careful with what they were saying.
OK, I'll give you the bit about the Joker, but that doesn't change the fact that the casual use of rape and the treatment of women in the media are major issues that can't be treated lightly or casually.
No matter how much might just want to look at a story like this by itself, it is part of the cultural zeigtgeist and it will be looked at relation to what is going on in the world. Not everybody is going to be willing to overlook controversial topics like fridging women thing.
You keep bringing up "women in refrigerators" like it's some big movement when all there is is an old website that hasnt been updated since 2000. There's no huge membership or petitions posted. Nothing new or recent. 9/11 truthers and conspiracy theorists are more active and recent than that. That probably explains why people here have never heard of them.
Even if that's not still a thing, it doesn't change the fact that shitty treatment of women in the media, and comics especially, is a major problem that people are still struggling to address. Hell, there was just recently crontroversy after Sleepy Hollow, Vikings, Empire, and Arrow all killed women. I'd remember if it was specifically addressed but The Originals also killed off two of their biggest major female characters.
Yeah, I just became familiar with the term just a couple years ago.
I just want to clarify one thing, I'm not saying women characters should never die, or have anything bad happen to them, but when it does it shouldn't just be blown off, or just to service a male character's story. I listed the shows that recently killed female characters, but to be honest I thought most of them were handled pretty well. In that situation it was mainly just the fact that they all happened within a few weeks of each other.
Arrow killed
on April 6, Vikings killed
on April 7, Sleepy Hollow killed
on April 8, The Originals killed
on April 29th
I'm not familiar enough with Empire to know what happened to who when.
I just want to clarify one thing, I'm not saying women characters should never die, or have anything bad happen to them, but when it does it shouldn't just be blown off, or just to service a male character's story. I listed the shows that recently killed female characters, but to be honest I thought most of them were handled pretty well. In that situation it was mainly just the fact that they all happened within a few weeks of each other.
Arrow killed
Laurel
Kwenthrith and Yidu
Abby
Cami and Davina
Davina actually appeared as a spirit in the next episode, but was destroyed before that episode was over).
I've always found the way Barbara was treated in TKJ to be problematic, but not because she was a woman who was abused and crippled, but because it was done to a main character and purely for shock value. What's worse is that it wasn't either her story, it was Joker's, Batman's & Jim Gordon's.
Comic books do have a history with this kind of thing and not only with female characters, but when they do it tends to be particularly tone deaf. Alexandra DeWit in the fridge is certainly a big one, as is the crazy "Ms. Marvel gives birth to her abductor" craziness and of course the whole mess that was kicked off with Dr. Light (the male villain version) raping Sue Dibny.
That last one I always found particularly nasty, not because of the act itself, but the response to it. The comic practically ignored Sue and instead focused how how her rape made everyone else feel.
That all said, I'm optimistic about the upcoming adaptation of 'The Killing Joke' since they've already said they're expanding the story to give Barbara more agency and context. It also helps that the production crew has earned a lot of trust to handle such things intelligently and with some taste.
But yet I won't be upset if it doesn't turn out well. I've honestly never understood why TKJ get's lauded as one of the greats. The central message (Joker and Batman are basically the same person) is such an obvious one I wonder why Moore felt it needed to be pointed out.
For my money, the only value TKJ has is that it eventually and indirectly lead to the character of Oracle, which I've always felt was a much more interesting role for Barbara than Batgirl.
Comic books do have a history with this kind of thing and not only with female characters, but when they do it tends to be particularly tone deaf. Alexandra DeWit in the fridge is certainly a big one, as is the crazy "Ms. Marvel gives birth to her abductor" craziness and of course the whole mess that was kicked off with Dr. Light (the male villain version) raping Sue Dibny.
That last one I always found particularly nasty, not because of the act itself, but the response to it. The comic practically ignored Sue and instead focused how how her rape made everyone else feel.
That all said, I'm optimistic about the upcoming adaptation of 'The Killing Joke' since they've already said they're expanding the story to give Barbara more agency and context. It also helps that the production crew has earned a lot of trust to handle such things intelligently and with some taste.
But yet I won't be upset if it doesn't turn out well. I've honestly never understood why TKJ get's lauded as one of the greats. The central message (Joker and Batman are basically the same person) is such an obvious one I wonder why Moore felt it needed to be pointed out.
For my money, the only value TKJ has is that it eventually and indirectly lead to the character of Oracle, which I've always felt was a much more interesting role for Barbara than Batgirl.
Again, that is the point of the story: when the main character's reaction is central to the story, other characters--main or supporting--are used as the motivator. For example, by the time Gwen Stacy had been killed in Amazing Spider-Man #121, she had long moved from supporting player to one of the central characters in the Spider-Man title, but her death was more about Parker's reaction to it than the fatal effect on her. His reaction would last for several years to follow, and from a story development standpoint, the death served its intended, greater purpose.
Silver & Bronze Age Captain America dedicated innumerable issues of any title he was connected to exploring his depression and (at one time) uncertainty over Bucky's once-apparent death. Before anyone says Bucky was not a main character, his Silver Age rebirth rocketed him to such popularity that retconned stories involving him appeared in everything from Tales of Suspense, The Fantastic Four, Marvel Premiere, Sgt.Fury, The Avengers, The Invaders (obviously) to What If?--the latter's editorial staff admitting that "what if?" stories about Bucky (and Cap) surviving WWII stories were among the most requested. So, on that note, he was a significant character, but in the grand scheme of his use, it was the effect of his death on Cap that was the ultimate emotional point, even in stories where his death was not mentioned, because we (the reader) understood what his ultimate emotional point was. That applies to Barbara Gordon.
Honestly, I don't see the comparison. The Cap/Bucky thing was more akin to Bruce Wayne's parents or Uncle Ben. It was part of the backstory and motivation in that whole era of storytelling. It had a lasting effect and resonated with his characterisation. It wasn't done for some one-off excuse for a revenge quest. I can't speak to the Gwen Stacy thing since I'm not massively familiar with the material, but my impression is that it's considered a key event in Spider-Man's history and had long reaching significance almost on par with Uncle Ben and served more as a grim reminder than a cheap thrill or one-off drama.
There's a BIG difference between a meaningful character death and a cheap one. Granted they didn't *actually* kill Barbara, but the basic principle is the same. The event didn't alter anything about Batman's characterisation, or Jim Gordon's, she had no agency in the story and was just used as a prop for that particular story. The point wasn't to advance a character, it was to make a wry observation about Batman's *innate* character, make a joke about it and then move on like nothing had happened.
That it later led to Oracle is not to the story's credit since that wasn't conceived and developed until later and by other authors. Her function in TKJ is clear-cut. Get shot. Get used as a means to show how twisted and extreme Joker can be. Lie in bed while the men go do manly revenge things. Be forgotten about by the final panel.